The West Advisor - Suggested Cruising Gear

[Captain Smollett]

The West Marine website has the West Advisor "Suggested Cruising Gear" online.

I have to say that I was quite surprised about some of this; I had expected a much more "conventional" list of suggested gear.  They divide the common lists into "Priority" and "Optional," and while I don't agree with every detail, overall, it's not a bad list.

The one big area that I have disagreement on, and I guess I'll ALWAYS be on the back side of the bell curve on this one, is electrical system.  They recommend a house bank 3-4 times your daily budget, then go on to tell me that for a 30 footer, I should have around 200 AH.

Using their formula, then, that makes my daily budget 50-70 AH per day.  My own personal actual budget is 25 AH per day, though I could see going to 50 for more "comfort."  I don't think I could use 70 AH per day if I tried.

In fact, I do carry 215 AH in 2 6V flooded cell batteries, so I could play with the 50 AH by their formula.  They go on to say something to the effect of "most end up with 4 6V batteries" (and recommend gel or AGM's, no flooded cell); 4 6V batts would give me 430 AH.,..and that's a LOT of juice.

The biggest electrical system 'problem' I perceive is charging.  Yes, I have the capacity in my batteries for a "conventional" 50 AH budget, but how am I going to put all those amps back in?  Their answer...BIG solar panels (listed as "Optional") and BIG ALTERNATOR on the main engine.

Agh.

First, I don't have a big "main engine;"  Gaelic Sea has an outboard for mechanical propulsion, which essentially means that except for moving around the marina or protected waters, I think of her as engineless.  I am not going to spend thousands of dollars on an engine (thus taking up valuable storage space and adding a ton of weight), just so I can run lots of electrical gadgets.

Secondly, the main engine is designed to propel the boat, not to charge batteries.  Isn't it bad for most marine diesels to run extensively under low load?  Also, that adds to fuel consumption, etc...we all know the arguments.

No, I essentially built my energy budget around not the size or how many batteries I can carry, but rather around my charging options.  In the sailing press, I don't see many people working the problem this way...most seem to list the things they want to power, then supply batts and charging around that.

Finally, with my current system, I have a HUGE margin of "safety" built into my capacity.  My budget is 25 AH on a bank of 200 ish AH...I will (in theory) stress the batteries less (preserving that capacity longer into the battery's life) and most importantly, I CAN go roughly a week without sunshine on my solar panel for recharging.

I don't know...in the wake of Hurricane Irene and the power outages (and people's reaction to them), I guess I'm thinking electricity is overrated and oversold anyway.  In the past, I've gone a week without electrical power, and don't recall really missing it that much.

The other "big disagree" I have with their list is another old one for me...mapping GPS.  I just don't see that as all that useful...but I guess this is a personal style thing. In pilot waters, where I can see landmarks, I have a paper chart and can LOOK and SEE where I am...the GPS is not giving me any new information.  The part that really bothers me about this style of navigation is that it brings the skipper's (or navigator's ?) attention INSIDE the boat...rather than outside where the dangers lie.

Anyway, all that said, I do think overall it is a pretty good list, and far less "slanted" than I imagined it would be.  For example, I liked that they recommended a fixed length whisker pole in general, giving only a special case for the line-adjust ones.  That's a refreshing shift from 'the party line.'

[Godot]

I thought the list was pretty good; especially for the people they were writing it for.  Now-a-days, minimalists are becoming something of an oddity, and you would have to go elsewhere for that kind of recommendation.

Regards the electricity usage, I think they are budgeting for long distance voyaging, with the expectation of charging the batteries every day or so.  I'm not sure I'd be able to keep my usage down at the 25AH range your budget suggests under normal conditions.  Figure...

Running Lights (assuming LED which I haven't installed yet): .4a x 10h/day = 3.5ah
Cabin Lights (LED): 0.5a x 5h = 2.5AH
Instrument lights: 0.1a x 10h = 1.0ah
Autopilot (BIG user here): 1.0a x 24h = 24.0ah
VHF (standby): 0.6a x 23.5h = 12.9ah
VHF (receive): 0.9a x 0.5h = 0.4ah
VHF (transmit): 5.5a x 0.1h = 0.6ah
GPS (old, simple chartplotter GPSMap 162): 0.3a x 24h = 7.9ah
Depth Sounder: 0.05a x 24h = 1.2ah


That totals 54 AH/Day.  Nothing here is really extravagant, although once well offshore perhaps there is no need to run the GPS/chartplotter all the time (or I could switch to a small handheld GPS or use my Android or something).  Perhaps cabin lighting could be reduced a smidge.  The VHF is something which really should be run all the time.  The tillerpilot is the big killer, though, that really busts the budget.  I wouldn't want to give up self steering.  A windvane or effective sheet to tiller system would help get things down to your level.  To me, though, 50ah/day is super easy to exceed without running lots of needless stuff.

The issue with charging really complicates things.  This would suggest a LARGER battery bank is necessary for those of us without large alternators.  Figure, ideally the battery will never drop below 50%.  With a good charger (which you, and I, don't have), it will get up to 85% or so pretty quickly and then the charge will tend to slow down, leaving really only about 35% of battery capacity for practical use.

For your 25ah/day, assuming a theoretical three day passage, you would need a battery bank of around 214AH (which, coincidentally, is almost exactly what you have).  Alternatively, you could get away with a 150AH bank if the battery was at maximum charge at the beginning.

For my 54ah/day usage, I'd need a whopping 463AH for the same three day period (or 324AH assuming an initial full charge). 

Scary numbers.  Time to buy some solar panels!

[Captain Smollett]

How I keep my budget down:

Running Lights (assuming LED which I haven't installed yet): .4a x 10h/day = 3.5ah

Ditto

Cabin Lights (LED): 0.5a x 5h = 2.5AH

No way we'd need lights on for five hours every single day.  Let's say 2.  Modify my number to 1. AH.

Instrument lights: 0.1a x 10h = 1.0ah

Not needed.  My number is 0 AH.

Autopilot (BIG user here): 1.0a x 24h = 24.0ah

Yep.  Big user.  Not needed.  Don't have one.  My number:  0.0 AH

VHF (standby): 0.6a x 23.5h = 12.9ah
VHF (receive): 0.9a x 0.5h = 0.4ah
VHF (transmit): 5.5a x 0.1h = 0.6ah

Presently carry only a hand-held.  It uses a rechargeable battery pack that with kind of usage, goes several days without recharging.  I have two packs, so one fully charged while the other in the radio.

In coastal waters in range of NOAA wx radio, I use this radio for wx updates and forecasts.

Amp hours per day for charging?  Let's say 2.0 being quite generous.

GPS (old, simple chartplotter GPSMap 162): 0.3a x 24h = 7.9ah

I have absolutely NO USE to run a GPS 24 hours per day.  If I need a fix, I'll turn it on, get a fix, and its done in a few minutes.  My GPS is a handheld (that can be plugged into ship's battery that runs off AA rechargeables otherwise).

In the case of running it 'constantly' just for gee-whiz in coastal waters, I've gotten a couple of days out one set of AA's.  Your three day passage would not touch my ship's amp-hours at all for GPS even if I did have it on the whole time.

I'm going with 1.0 amp-hour overestimate for recharging my AA's, spread over the 4-6 days I could get out of 2 sets.  My charger uses 6 amps (pulsed, not continous) for a 15 minute charge time for four batteries.  6 amps for 15 minutes is only 1.5 amp-hours, but I only need to do this every 4-6 days...*IF* the GPS is even on 24 hours per day (very unlikely...I just don't use it that much).

Depth Sounder: 0.05a x 24h = 1.2ah

Would not run this 24 hours per day.  I have one on the Alberg which I have owned 4 years.  I have not turned the depth sounder on under way one single time.

I think I'll go 0.0 amp-hours on this one due to neglible usage (averaged into overestimates on other usage).

You did not include cabin fans, which I have built into my budget.  But, ignoring them, I'm at 7.5 amp-hours using your list.

Also included in my budget that your list does not include are the following:

Time average recharging of laptop (not every day)

Reserve for pumping with electric bilge pumps

Recharging other incidental items like cell phones (for reading, games, general tools), mp3 players, etc.

Recharging my SSB receiver (used to receive wx info when not within NOAA coastal range on VHF, and general entertainment), again a time average - not recharged every day.

I can meet 25 amp hours because I don't regularly and continuously use electronic navigation equipment...I think that's the biggest different between your list and mine.

I hope you can see that my 25 amp-hour budget is tight, and I MIGHT go over it on occasion (I've built that cushion into my system), it's not at all unreasonable for (a) how I sail/use my boat and (b) how I have my boat set up and (c) how my crew is learning to sail and operate the boat.

My recharging system, if the engine is not running, is one 85 Watt solar panel - let's call it 5 amp for 5 hours per day...magically equaling my budget of 25 amp-hours per day.  If I don't get solar amps back into the batteries, a 25 amp-hour budget on a bank of 215 amp-hour gives me an 8 day 'cushion' (though hard on the batts to do that).

I could leave my solar panel at home for your three day passage and not fall below my 50% desired discharge minimum.

But...I do plan to get an auxiliary folding/stowable solar panel ,,, something like 50 watts.  If have to go several days without solar amps in, then I can boost the amps I do get from the sunshine (quicker charging) when I get some sun.

As I've said before, I just cannot fathom why the GPS needs to run 24 hours per day.  It just makes NO sense to me...at all.  Offshore...get a fix every few hours and follow a compass course.  On the ICW, eyeball pilotage on the navigation aids.  Other?  Solve that problem when I get to it...but GPS on ALL the time.

Waste of electricity.

Last note:  If I *DID* decide to put on an autopilot for the dreaded ICW long days...that's virtually always motoring (or at least motorsailing) anyway.  Charger on the engine puts out enough to drive the AP...but still, I just don't see one in my future.

Sailing?  AP is not *MY* best solution.  Sheet to tiller has worked for me in the past, and I will continue to use this non-power hungry method to get off the tiller.  I can see a wind vane in my future LONG, LONG before an electronic autopilot.

[Godot]

Always choices.  I could go all old school (and have in the past); but I'll admit that I do like to have some electronics going. 

Here in the Chesapeake, the depth sounder is very necessary, in my opinion.  But it's also cheap on electrons.  Offshore, far less necessary; but I'd probably keep it running...because it's cheap on electrons.  I'm not sure why West Marine insists on a 600' depth sounder.  200' (the range of depth sounder I'm about to install since I accidentally dropped the fish finder overboard) seems more than adequate to me.

I used to sail all the time without a GPS.  Then I used a handheld.  Now I've inherited this old, monochrome, pretty efficient Garmin.  I will admit that I like to keep it running.  Some people might call it cheating; but I like to use it to trim my sails for best speed (I use it as a check on my own sail trimming and course keeping ... I'm still learning how to sail efficiently).  Plus, since I don't plot my courses nav-aid to nav-aid very often anymore, it gives me useful info for cutting the corners.  I find it useful, and I like having it.  I rarely have the map view on; btw.  This old dinosaur just refreshes too slowly, and the map redraw is agonizing to wait for.  Probably unnecessary offshore; but I'd probably still keep it running unless I was worried about the batteries.

The instrument light referred to is the compass light (not currently operation, FWIW).  I'm not sure what it draws, so went with .1.

As long as I'm single handing, the autopilot (or an alternate system...which on my boat is vaporware at this point) is mandatory for me.  I think I'd learn to hate sailing quickly if I was a slave to the tiller for days on end.

Cabin lights are a tricky one to judge.  Usually, as a single hander, I leave a red LED burning down below while sailing, so I can get below and grab something in a hurry without bumping into things.  With crew, there is usually activity below.  Five hours is my normal time awake during darkness, so it is what was budgeted.  While sailing the usage would likely be lower.  Maybe.

Re: fans...While underway with a decent breeze, unless the campanionway is closed up for weather, or during the hottest days of summer, I usually find it cool enough to do without.  When outside (most of the time), I don't really need fans.  Mostly, I use them for stuffy nights while trying to sleep.  And at the marina where it is always too hot.  At anchor there is a completely different electrical budget.

Bilge pump doesn't run much.  Hardly worth mentioning.  I'll violate the bottom 50% of the battery if I need to in an emergency.  Definitely not a daily (or weekly, even) use item.

So far I haven't used a laptop on-board.  Maybe that will change in the future. 

The Android phone, btw (and presumably the iPhone as well) is a great boat tool.  I use it as an anchor watch, backup GPS, weather radar, and as a fix for my internet addiction. Cheap on the electrons (especially if the display is off) compared to a laptop.

I should have budgeted some AHs for recharging the WHAM mics.

Mostly this is theoretical, and has not been tested on my boat for these conditions, yet.  The three day example was chosen as I'm planning on a trip to Martha's Vineyard next June, and I'm budgeting three days there from Cape May, NJ (hopefully it will take less). 

Choices choices

[Captain Smollett]

I think this is a GREAT discussion.

Always choices.  I could go all old school (and have in the past); but I'll admit that I do like to have some electronics going. 

Your budget, your choice.  I'm just offering the counter example since you seemed to suggest that MY budget was not realistic (and I admit it perhaps is not for everyone..but it's tried and true for me/us, at least so far).

Here in the Chesapeake, the depth sounder is very necessary, in my opinion.  But it's also cheap on electrons.  Offshore, far less necessary; but I'd probably keep it running...because it's cheap on electrons.  I'm not sure why West Marine insists on a 600' depth sounder.  200' (the range of depth sounder I'm about to install since I accidentally dropped the fish finder overboard) seems more than adequate to me.

I have room in my budget to run the sounder occasionally when I need it.  Honestly, it's on the boat but not even hooked up (either the power wire or the transducer wire).  It's crammed in a compartment and covered with other junk...or was until last week when I ripped the boat apart looking for something I needed.   ;)

All the KIA's around here say "don't you dare sail around here without a depth sounder...AND Tow Insurance."

I have routinely enough broken both rules....   ::)

The instrument light referred to is the compass light (not currently operation, FWIW).  I'm not sure what it draws, so went with .1.

I would use mine too if it weren't burned out (or otherwise non-functional).  Instead, a quick flash with a small flashlight serves the purpose to check the compass.

Here's a trick I've used on the ocean at night.  After getting on course with the compass, I check the alignment of moon or a star (this obviously is a good visibility trick) with something on the rig.  Then, I steer by that celestial body for some period of time, occasionally adjusting with the flashlight on the compass.  This precludes needing the compass light on all the time.

How often you correct depends on the body...the moon requires quicker adjustments (I think I used 15 minutes or so, if memory serves).  Stars' apparent motion is much slower, so you can go longer between checks with the mag compass.

But with LED's, there's no reason NOT to have it on all the time.  A small LED on the compass should draw well below the 0.1 amp you mentioned, but even if that's as much as it takes...it is a small price to add to the budget.

As long as I'm single handing, the autopilot (or an alternate system...which on my boat is vaporware at this point) is mandatory for me.  I think I'd learn to hate sailing quickly if I was a slave to the tiller for days on end.

Self steering is a requirement, as the one 'creature comfort' that I think is paramount to survival is rest.  So, I agree.

An auto pilot is only one solution, and it has a lot of draw backs (in my opinion, again, your boat, your choice).

Have you tried sheet to tiller methods on your boat?  If not, give it a go next time you are out.  Sacrifice a slight bit of speed to balance the boat and experiment.  You can use whatever you have on hand for initial trial and error, and when it comes time to build 'dedicated' gear, you can do so for less than $20...maybe less than $10.

Close hauled on the ocean in 10-ish knots of wind and 3-4 seas (off Charleston, SC), my boat self steered (no gear at all) for 45 minutes..just tracked right along...and probably would have gone longer.  I think I tacked to avoid getting too close to an anchored Container Ship off the sea buoy (this was about midnight).

Cabin lights are a tricky one to judge.  Usually, as a single hander, I leave a red LED burning down below while sailing, so I can get below and grab something in a hurry without bumping into things.  With crew, there is usually activity below.  Five hours is my normal time awake during darkness, so it is what was budgeted.  While sailing the usage would likely be lower.  Maybe.

Five hours during darkness while sailing, or just in general?

I don't know, working the boat 24 hours a day tires me out sufficiently to just rack out.  When not singlehanding (crew to share watches), I'm generally asleep if off-watch or doing some off-watch work (preparing a meal, etc).

Again, there *IS* going to be a ton of variance on this stuff...I just know how *I* approach it and what I've experienced.

Also, we use flashlights enough at night, or if there is ANY light at all (moon, for example)...just simply night vision.  Maybe we are lucky to be blessed in this way, but for general movement around the boat, we usually don't even need light.

Finally, our LED cabin lights, though VERY expensive, are very power efficient and have a dimmer switch....which is INCREDIBLY handy.  The things use very very little juice on 'dim,' and yet provide enough ambient light for general purpose movement around the cabin.

Re: fans...While underway with a decent breeze, unless the campanionway is closed up for weather, or during the hottest days of summer, I usually find it cool enough to do without.  When outside (most of the time), I don't really need fans.  Mostly, I use them for stuffy nights while trying to sleep.  And at the marina where it is always too hot.  At anchor there is a completely different electrical budget.

All true...my budge is a general one, including at-anchor.  With summers here in the upper 90's lower 100's, even at anchor, we'll probably run some fans.  Or, my first choice...be somewhere cooler.   ;)

Bilge pump doesn't run much.  Hardly worth mentioning.  I'll violate the bottom 50% of the battery if I need to in an emergency.  Definitely not a daily (or weekly, even) use item.

I've got an older boat that has been neglected for many of the latter years of it's life.  I've already fixed a TON of leaks (and none of my repairs leaked during the 10 inches or more we got during Irene last Saturday), but alas, I'm still chasing others.

So, when it rains, the bilge pump cycles.

I figure it's not a bad thing to have a few amps budgeted for water extraction...my experience is that the concept of a "dry boat" is a myth.  There are a lot of ways water can get below.  And it does.  Living aboard has shown me that.  When it's raining in torrents, you let a fair amount of water below JUST opening the hatch to check something, to change watches, etc.

Yes, the idea is to keep the water out of the boat...that's the first option.  Plan B is to get it out when it gets in.  Actually, make that Plans B-E, since I have redundant systems (both automatic and manual).  Plan F is the scared sailor with a bucket, and having bailed about 100 gallons on Sunday just this way, I can say it is EXHAUSTING.

I'd have to be plenty scared to keep that up.

Mostly this is theoretical, and has not been tested on my boat for these conditions, yet.  The three day example was chosen as I'm planning on a trip to Martha's Vineyard next June, and I'm budgeting three days there from Cape May, NJ (hopefully it will take less). 

The most I've done was 9 days full time use (four people) with no additional charging beyond our 18 Watt panel (at the time, that's the only small panel we had), Though two days (at the very end) had about 6 hours of motoring each.

Three days would be a breeze given our use profile.  In three days, a lot of the things that are in my budget would not be used - no laptop, no bilge pump (hopefully, as you state), no recharging of "big stuff" (maybe a phone once or twice) and with some luck on the wx, no fans, etc.

I am pretty sure I could push all three days into one day's worth of my budget without getting into "really heavy duty conservation mode."  Like I said, I could leave the solar panel at home for a three day jaunt.

My boat lived for 18 months at anchor, and this was with only an 18 watt panel aboard.  I was aboard sometimes twice a week for overnights or weekends.  We took the boat out, too.  That's 18 months without touching a shore power cord.

Being energy conscious pays dividends in other ways.  I'm not saying that I think a 50 ah budget of too larger (it is for me and the charging capacity I wish to supply on MY boat); actually, I think a 50 ah budget is quite reasonable.  Some folks, though, have budgets in the HUNDREDS of ah per day (400, 500, more), and that just make me wonder..."why?"

[CharlieJ]

Ok- based on about ( we went back to Texas a couple of times) two years of full time cruising including overnight passages.

We use a 32 watt solar panel in toto. No alternator. LED cabin lights, Garmin 72 non mapping GPs, VHF, depth sounder, recharge laptop and Iphones ( sometimes 2 at once)

When cruising ( not at anchor for a few days)

Cabin lights- MAYBE 10 minutes a day. Sun goes down, we go to bed. Up at daylight. May use the light to set up coffee pot, then off again.

Depth sounder runs ONLY when coming in to anchor. Tells how much rode to lay out. Otherwise, whrn moving- not needed, even in Chesapeake( which is MUCH simpler to sail on than inshore Texas waters. So maybe 10 minutes a day- MAYBE. today I used it about 5'minutes.

GPS in while moving- basically for speed reading and for trip distance log ( we keep track of mileage) off at night.

Vhf on while underway.

Iphones in use constantly- we have INAVX on both and occasionally use that to pin point exact location among other things.

In 2 years of travels we've used a charger to top up batteries ONCE after
Four days of rain. later found out we had a bad battery.
Took one out, now use a single Grp 27 for every thing

Oh- forgot Albert. He's our tillerpilot and when offshore in use all the time. Used him 8'hours the other day on a 10 hour trip. Big following seas confuse him!! Me too sometimes!!

Have no idea what actual amperage use is. We are VERY frugal of amps. And really don't feel "shorted" GRIN

As for the dinnette mentioned- on sailfar size boats a dinnette is pretty useless if more than two aboard. Most really only seat two given themoutboard person has fit under deck edgeand hull slope ( for foot room) really need a 35 to 40 footer for them to b usefull.

Besides- they steal a seaberth and on a rcent delivery we had to use the cabin sole since
on port tack there was only 1 useable berth(3 aboard) this one a 41 footer.

[Godot]

This is the first time I've ever felt that I was using an extravagant amount of energy onboard.

I'm just offering the counter example since you seemed to suggest that MY budget was not realistic (and I admit it perhaps is not for everyone..but it's tried and true for me/us, at least so far).

I never meant to suggest that your budget was unrealistic.  But it is certainly a lot more frugal than what is typical, even for those who aren't gadget happy.  I suppose I'd be happy enough doing things that way; but I prefer just a little more.

Self steering is a requirement, as the one 'creature comfort' that I think is paramount to survival is rest.  So, I agree.

An auto pilot is only one solution, and it has a lot of draw backs (in my opinion, again, your boat, your choice).

Have you tried sheet to tiller methods on your boat?  If not, give it a go next time you are out.  Sacrifice a slight bit of speed to balance the boat and experiment.  You can use whatever you have on hand for initial trial and error, and when it comes time to build 'dedicated' gear, you can do so for less than $20...maybe less than $10.

I haven't done the sheet to tiller thing, yet.  I've been meaning to for years, just haven't got around to it.  Hence, the "vaporware" of alternate self steering I was referring to.  Maybe next week.  Maybe.

Five hours during darkness while sailing, or just in general?

In general. Probably a side effect of weird hours at work. My circadian rhythms are all out of whack.  The good news, though, is that I can function fairly well on short sleep with frequent naps.  I can't remember the last time I slept more than four hours in a row.

I don't know, working the boat 24 hours a day tires me out sufficiently to just rack out.  When not singlehanding (crew to share watches), I'm generally asleep if off-watch or doing some off-watch work (preparing a meal, etc).

My offshore watchkeeping experience is limited to one trip I did with Auspicious.  I suppose I spent most of my down time in the bunk, resting, though not always sleeping.  I read several books that trip.

Also, we use flashlights enough at night, or if there is ANY light at all (moon, for example)...just simply night vision.  Maybe we are lucky to be blessed in this way, but for general movement around the boat, we usually don't even need light.

I have pretty dark plexiglass in the deadlights in Godot.  It helps keep the interior from getting too hot. It also keeps things pretty dark below; especially at night.

Finally, our LED cabin lights, though VERY expensive, are very power efficient and have a dimmer switch....which is INCREDIBLY handy.  The things use very very little juice on 'dim,' and yet provide enough ambient light for general purpose movement around the cabin.

The "RED" mode on my LED cabin light seems to perform the same function, and I leave it on most of the time at night underway (it doesn't draw much). It is impossible to tell it's on with closed eyes, and is pretty safe for night vision.  It's a cheap (energy wise) convenience.

I've got an older boat that has been neglected for many of the latter years of it's life.  I've already fixed a TON of leaks (and none of my repairs leaked during the 10 inches or more we got during Irene last Saturday), but alas, I'm still chasing others.

Godot was born in 1973, so she isn't exactly a newborn.  I've been doing the same thing, chasing leaks.  Still, I'm probably only getting a cup or two onboard during heavy rains, with a large percentage of that coming through the companionway vent.  It doesn't so much fill the bilges as dampen the cushions, an annoyance.  Irene put some water in the bilge; but not enough to trigger the float switch.

...my experience is that the concept of a "dry boat" is a myth.  There are a lot of ways water can get below.  And it does.  Living aboard has shown me that.  When it's raining in torrents, you let a fair amount of water below JUST opening the hatch to check something, to change watches, etc.

I hear ya.  One of the (several) reasons I want a dodger is so that I can open the companionway without everything inside getting soaked.

Three days would be a breeze given our use profile.  In three days, a lot of the things that are in my budget would not be used - no laptop, no bilge pump (hopefully, as you state), no recharging of "big stuff" (maybe a phone once or twice) and with some luck on the wx, no fans, etc.

Three days matches my likely offshore legs, so it was a convenient number to use for comparison and planning purposes.  But it doesn't tell the whole story.  Because, when the leg is done, there will still be a need for electricity, and still be a need to recharge.

Being energy conscious pays dividends in other ways.  I'm not saying that I think a 50 ah budget of too larger (it is for me and the charging capacity I wish to supply on MY boat); actually, I think a 50 ah budget is quite reasonable.  Some folks, though, have budgets in the HUNDREDS of ah per day (400, 500, more), and that just make me wonder..."why?"

Refrigerators. Freezers. Entertainment systems. Computers. Radar. Watermakers. Ham/SSB.  Some people like their gadgets.  Some people like to have all the comforts of home.  I've heard the term "I want to live aboard, not camp aboard" from several people.  Everyone has their own standards.  I live a pretty minimal life compared to many (I own very little of value, and like it that way), my happiest times have been those days I've lived in studio apartments; but four full time on a 30' boat (a SMALL 30' boat by today's standards) pushes my comfort level.  I think a lot of folks feel claustrophobic in small spaces.  Privacy and space is important to a lot of people.  I have friends who claim they CANNOT LIVE without their music.  It's an individual thing.  If a 60 footer is what it takes to make some people happy, then more power to them.

Cabin lights- MAYBE 10 minutes a day. Sun goes down, we go to bed. Up at daylight. May use the light to set up coffee pot, then off again.

I wish I could do that... not counting naps, unless exhausted I'm generally up until 1am.  When exhausted I'm generally up until midnight.

Depth sounder runs ONLY when coming in to anchor. Tells how much rode to lay out. Otherwise, whrn moving- not needed, even in Chesapeake( which is MUCH simpler to sail on than inshore Texas waters. So maybe 10 minutes a day- MAYBE. today I used it about 5'minutes.

You see, this is an interesting thing...I use my depth sounder ALL THE TIME.  When tacking up a river or something, I keep an eye on it so that I know when the shoals are approaching so that I can maximize my tacks.  I use it as a navigation tool.  And it is electrically cheap, so why not keep it on.  It is kind of pointless in much of the open bay, I guess.  My old Humminbird fishfinder (that I accidentally murdered in Annapolis a couple weeks ago) used to get confused when the mud got stirred up by power boats; but when it is working it is just so darned useful.

Oh- forgot Albert. He's our tillerpilot and when offshore in use all the time. Used him 8'hours the other day on a 10 hour trip. Big following seas confuse him!! Me too sometimes!!

Have no idea what actual amperage use is. We are VERY frugal of amps. And really don't feel "shorted" GRIN

Hmm.  Perhaps my tillerpilot isn't sucking as much juice as I fear? 

As for the dinnette mentioned- on sailfar size boats a dinnette is pretty useless if more than two aboard. Most really only seat two given themoutboard person has fit under deck edgeand hull slope ( for foot room) really need a 35 to 40 footer for them to b usefull.

Captain Smollett aside, I typically have always thought of boats our size generally suitable for only one or two (not counting the occasional afternoon sail with friends).

Besides- they steal a seaberth and on a rcent delivery we had to use the cabin sole since
on port tack there was only 1 useable berth(3 aboard) this one a 41 footer.

Sailing back from the Bahamas on Auspicious, the cabin sole was really the most comfortable place to be, even though there was some risk of being stepped on. My preference might change if I was doing a LOT of passage-making.

[Captain Smollett]

I haven't done the sheet to tiller thing, yet.  I've been meaning to for years, just haven't got around to it.  Hence, the "vaporware" of alternate self steering I was referring to.  Maybe next week.  Maybe.

I hope it works for you.  It is to some degree apparently, boat dependent.  But when it works, it's just amazing in it's simplicity.

Three days matches my likely offshore legs, so it was a convenient number to use for comparison and planning purposes.  But it doesn't tell the whole story.  Because, when the leg is done, there will still be a need for electricity, and still be a need to recharge.

True.  But...

;D

After three days running "Spartan," you may well be able to justify to yourself a night in a marina to top of those batts.   ;D

More seriously, "in port," you might run ashore for sightseeing or supplies or something.  You can time this with times you might ordinarily be using juice aboard, and let the solar panel work without having to supply what you are "usually" doing.

I guess my point is that it may only take some minor behavior modification on the arrival end of a 'passage' to make up for the lost amps, however they are supplied.

Also, remember my boat did 18 months with only an 18 watt panel.  In that period, she spent 11 days in continuous use by four people (okay 2 and 2 halves by some measures)...9 days away from the mooring and one day on each end AT the mooring...and our 215 amp hour batteries, 18 watt solar panel, and about 60 amps tops from the engine met our needs.

The batteries were not anywhere near dead when we arrived back at the mooring, and the little 'solar panel that could' had no problem filling them back up over the next few days.

Refrigerators. Freezers. Entertainment systems. Computers. Radar. Watermakers. Ham/SSB.  Some people like their gadgets.  Some people like to have all the comforts of home.  I've heard the term "I want to live aboard, not camp aboard" from several people. 

More power to them (no pun intended).  I personally think they are losing something by that approach, but hey, so what.

But I will say that I've met several people that have not appeared to enjoy cruising because of the 'effort' it required...keeping up with all that stuff and feeding it.  Cruising at that level takes FAR more money than most of us have or can make while we cruise.

I like to think that I have at least a modicum of ability at learning from the mistakes of others.  Therefore, when I see unhappy people, I try to analyze WHY they might be unhappy.  In the case of couples cruising on 45, 50, 55 ft boats with ALL the bells and whistles, those that appear to be unsatisfied with their circumstances, I just wonder...

When I hear complaints on the dock on just how much that last haul-out cost, or how they had to HIRE help from the canvas shop just to carry their 1000 lb mainsail from the boat to the van or hear them complaining in the "Captain's Lounge" about how frustrating it is that their big screen TV, the third one this year, has quit working aboard, etc, I just have to wonder...

What can I do different?

Captain Smollett aside, I typically have always thought of boats our size generally suitable for only one or two (not counting the occasional afternoon sail with friends).

I choose to take that as a compliment...

Sailing back from the Bahamas on Auspicious, the cabin sole was really the most comfortable place to be

Cool.

In port, the children sleep in the v-berth and XO and I sleep in the main cabin.  At sea, one of us "responsible" adults is on watch...so, the chillens can have the main cabin and off watch adult...CAN sleep in the cabin sole.

As it's worked out in the past, though, one or both children grab the sole (they were small enough to sleep feet to feet both in the sole at the same time), and the off-watch gets a settee.

So far as I can see...there's no shame in sleeping on the sole...centerline and low.  Sounds like rest to me.

Adam, I wish you the best trip you can have on your passage to M. Vineyard.  That sounds like a blast.  You will take pictures, right?   ;D

[Godot]

Captain Smollett aside, I typically have always thought of boats our size generally suitable for only one or two (not counting the occasional afternoon sail with friends).

I choose to take that as a compliment...

How else could you take it?

Regards the Martha's Vineyard trip, I've got nine months to prepare. I'm not yet sure if I'll be single handing it or going with company.  Either way, weather permitting, I'm looking forward to the trip.  Finally, a chance to use all that Scoot prep! (I still have a long list of to-dos, though)

[CharlieJ]

I love my music too. I have around 40 albums loaded into this Iphone and two different speakers sets that work with it. One set battery powered and the other from a USB port which one of our 12 volt plugs has.
The Iphone then runs off of ships power, with minimum draw.

Sheet to tiller is great!! I've had it steering Tehani for up to two days offshore. Haven't perfected off the wind yet, but on the wind it's amazing. And simple. Just be sure to use surgical tubing, NOT bungee cord.

[phil416]

Nice thread, shows plenty of good thought.  My experience has been that barnyard engineering trumps mathematics for electrical systems.  I overbuild the delivery systems and use only modest charging sources.  My dailey energy use at sea runs about 12-17 amp/hrs per day.  The 2 golf cart system has never drawn below 90% which allows the 2 32 watt Uni solar amorphous panels to keep everything topped up.  I am not a believer in large alternators, they are very expensive and failure prone.  When you reach the 80+ amp size twin belts or surpentines are needed, requiring pulley replacements, Just try finding these overseas.  On a marginal system many sailors recharge to only 85% resulting short battery life.  My last set lasted 8 years and were only replaced due to going off shore. A mapping gps is handy on the icw, but useless at sea.  The vhf, speed depth, ais receiver,and gps run 24/7.  The nasa ais requires the gps, a well worthwhile expenditure.  The installation of leds paid great dividends on Deep Blue.  The repacement bulbs available are not that expensive and work well.  I also keep a red led shining upon the overhead at night.  For self steering I chose a Wind Pilot pacific light which proved bullet proof, an old Autohelm tiller pilot handles steering while under power.  Ventilation is handled by computer box fans that sell for about $5 at surplus center. They draw little power and are brushless.  As a parting shot,  exotic batteries (agm, gel) are astronomically expensive to replace overseas.   Phil