the epic journey of the great WOOLY BAH BAH

[JWalker]

Sunset in Clearwater Beach

[ntica]

beautiful pictures!!!

[JWalker]

Some thoughts.

This was a discovery trip for us.

Morgan and I have been talking about living on a sailboat for over 5 years.
This winter we made the break to try it out. And I sure am glad we did.

Some things were just as I thought.

The cold was still cold, the warm was wonderful.
   I am not a fan of the cold. I don't plan to do any high latitude cruising in the near future. I'm a    fan of global warming. Leaving out in November was cold. Its better down further south, for    me.  8)

The sunsets were incredible, pictures can do them no justice.
   There was one sunset while crossing from cedar key to tarpon springs, that was so colorful, and    so spectacular, it was beyond any explanation. However, what is even more dificult to express    was the fact that 180 degrees behind us, from this incredible sunset, was an equally beautifull    moonrize. The moon coming up over the water, and the reflection reaching out towards us like a    finger of light across the glassy sea. Turn around and its magnificent sunset with amazing    color...... That was something I will never forget, and something I have no idea how to capture    on film. If I could I'd probably be famous.

The small boat was liveable.
   We really didnt have a problem living on a 25 foot boat for three months. If we were going open    ended with the two of us I believe we would be a lot happier with 30 feet, but the space just    wasnt a problem for us. And I also think that as we got further south we would have spent more    and more time outside later and later. But honestly we spend most evenings in the cabin.

Being on the water and outside all the time was wonderful.
   I like the outdoors, and I like the water.

We were able to live very frugally.
   We spent more in gas than I thought we would, but we were on coarse to spend less than I had       planned for. If we had the income from the rental, and also had not had to spend 1300 tw weeks    before we left, we would have had a reasonable amount left at the end of the cruise. I do not    think it would be to hard for two frugal people to cruise on $500 if they were good at budgeting.
   That said, I think that it is important to plan for eating out and enjoying the local food and    things. Also if you are trying to live on $500/mo remember that a small boat failure can be a    HUGE dent in that kind of budget. If you accidentally drop a winch handle overboard, its a 10th    of your monthly budget. Food for thought.

It is a healthy lifestyle full of activity. (We have both lost weight)
   This is great, we feel better, we look better, we can walk farther....just because of the normal l   evel of daily activity. This is something I want in my life.

A heavier boat would be better.
   We knew we were going off in a light flat bottomed cruiser/racer. So we were prepared for a    reasonable amount of movement, and we were not disappointed. Watching other boats at    anchor, and us, and also lighter boats, the heavier ones moved less in the same choppy    anchorages than we did. Don't get me wrong, all the boats move to some degree, but we spent    some bumpy nights, that a heavier more wine glass bottomed boat would have been smoother I    believe.


Some things were very different than we thought.

We motored ALOT more than I thought we would.
   The wind wasnt always where we needed it, and contrary to what I thought, since I did not want    to run into confusing channels after dark any more than I had to, rather than tack 3 miles off    shore and 3 miles back in, doing 3 knots....we went strait doing 4.5 under motor. Sometimes the    calm days when coming around the bend had no wind. But we didnt want to risk getting caught    in bad weather, so one glassy day we motored THE WHOLE DAY, because there was no wind.    We felt that it was the prudent thing to do.

Speed Matters.
   I thought who cares! We are on a boat, we are cruising! We don't care about going fast! Yeah well....maybe some day I wont, but it sure did make a difference. ESPECIALLY when trying to time arrivals in daylight. For instance: lets say that the direct crossing from Dog island where we were anchored, to the anchorage behind anclote was 145 miles. Now if we make 5 mph, then it is 29 hours. But what if the wind is light? At 4 mph its 36 hours. But now what if the wind is strong? 6 mph is 24 hours. So if I say ok....24-29 hours, I'll leave at 6 am, and the earliest I'll get in is 6 am, but if its a little slow I'll get in around 11 am or so.....unless it gets really light, and then I'll get in at 6 pm. Ok...that works out for getting in at daylight, but what if its 155 miles? We just added two hours. And by the way, a lot of our sailing was at 3 mph. So for us speed mattered. Is there a 30 foot boat, with a full keel and traditional shape thats a moderate heavy displacement that does 7 knots? That would be great!!!  ;D

Two crew does not negate the value of a tiller pilot. (What I would have given for one)
   I say tiller pilot, and not wind vane because where we are in the coastal waters and ICW a tiller    pilot would have been MUCH more valuable because it will work under motor. 

A fully kitted out blue water boat with watertight bulkheads and other modifications is needed to go far.
   After this trip I will seriously be examining the cruising I intend to do NOW. Not in 5 years, not    someday, but now. Morgan and I don't plan to go way offshore at this point. We want to cruise    the keys, and the Bahamas. This is our near term goal. I don't need to spend a lot of time trying    to make my boat perfect for crossing oceans, to cruise the bahamas. I need to get out and cruise    the bahamas to cruise the bahamas!  ;)

I hate the outboard bracket!!!
   It moves. And many times not when I want it to. And it rattles. Motor well would be MUCH    prefered.  >:(

I can surf the internet and look at pictures and get a really good idea of what I want.
   Poppycock. I've surfed and surfed, memorized sailboatdata's website, used the sailcalc, and    spent hours and hours pouring over pictures and talking about this boat and that boat. But it    wasnt until I started living on the boat that I began to realize what I wanted, how I wanted, and    started getting on other boats and seeing things I never realized or saw in pictures. I'm not    saying don't surf and look at pics....that half the fun. But realize that it is only one part. Get on    boats, get on cruising boats, get on liveaboard boats, even if its a boat you have no interest in.     Talk to the people who are out there. This has a very high value IMHO.

Some things I learned that even though we can live without, there would be a lot of value added if we had them.

We would really like a freezer.
   Canned meat just isnt the same, and canned veggies arent either.
   As we got further south, reprovisioning stops became more frequent, but coming down the river    with weeks between stores a freezer would have been wonderful. Maybe an engel....I don't    know but this would be nice.

We would like pressure raw water.
   Yes I know....its a system! But washing dishes would be SO much easier, and with a hose outlet    to the deck rinsing the ever present anchor mud off would be easy. If it breaks we can live    without it until its easy to fix. Not saying we will do this, just saying we are thinking about it.

We would like a swim platform
   Getting in and out of the hard dingy off the ladder is ok, but man a swim platform would be    REALLY nice.

Roller Furling
   SACRILAGE!!!!!  :o
   Yes, but let me tell you, there were many days when there was no wind, and then wind would    come up for a little while, and then die down again....and if I had a roller furling I'da pulled the    sail out. But because I had to get the sail out of the laz, and hank it on I didnt. Also on the river    there we MANY times when we would be on a great tack to the wind, and then have to turn into    the wind, and then the river would wind back onto a good tack with the wind. Or when we were    only moving a mile or two, and it just didnt seem worth getting the sail out and hanking it on    just to have to unhank it and put it away in a little bit. With roller furling I would have at the    very least motor sailed a lot more. And again, I'm not going offshore. I'm coastal cruising.

[Captain Smollett]

Excellent 'analysis;' thank-you, and grog, for posting it.

A couple of comments, just as food for thought:

(1) You mentioned speed as a way to time port arrivals during the day.  That's a good point, but at the risk of sounding argumentative, that's only a variation of 'schedules are the enemy of sailing.'

Still, it *IS* a good point.  I just wanted to throw that out, that speed only becomes 'desirable' in the context of getting somewhere at or before a given time.

(2) Swim Plaftform.  Lin and Larry's book "Cost Conscious Cruiser" has plans for a swim platform that hangs on line loops....so you can remove it and stow it.  I plan to build one.  It's well worth looking at to see if something like that will suit your purpose.

(3) Pressure water?  Did you have or try a pump-up sprayer?  We have three of these in three different sizes.  1.5 L hand-held for the galley, 1 gallon (not used much) and the 2 gallon "Ortho."

They work GREAT for "pressure water," raw or fresh (you might want two to keep them separate), don't add electrical load, no permanent plumbing and give EXCELLENT regulation of water use.

If you tried one and found it not to your liking, disregard.   ;)

(4) On your roller furling point.  When we are traveling, we generally keep the headsail hanked on.  Raising and lowering is not too much work.  More work than a furler, but not so much as to prevent raising the sail, even for a short time.

(5) Freezer: A lot of folks end up going the fridge/freezer route.  On a small boat, even a 30 footer, it's going to add its share of headaches (much increased charging capacity, more stuff to fail, etc).  Not undo-able, of course...just saying it's not a 'drop in' convenience, as it were. 

Thanks again for posting your list...great stuff.  :)

[JWalker]

>(1) You mentioned speed as a way to time port arrivals during the day.  That's a good point, but at the risk of sounding >argumentative, that's only a variation of 'schedules are the enemy of sailing.'

>Still, it *IS* a good point.  I just wanted to throw that out, that speed only becomes 'desirable' in the context of getting >somewhere at or before a given time.

Not exactly, even if you have speed...you will still have a qiven possible number of said speeds and use the same mathematical formulas to guestamate a given time, hopefully in daylight, that you may arrive. What I'm saying here is that with the typical distances *we* were likely to do, more speed would have allowed us less gap between possible arrival times, and more time in wonderful anchorages. If I was in a hurry I'd take a plane...but that doesnt mean I want to crawl either.


>(2) Swim Plaftform.  Lin and Larry's book "Cost Conscious Cruiser" has plans for a swim platform that hangs on line >loops....so you can remove it and stow it.  I plan to build one.  It's well worth looking at to see if something like that will >suit your purpose.

The book is at home on the shelf. I will will look at it when I get there. May be perfect for our next boat.

>(3) Pressure water?  Did you have or try a pump-up sprayer?  We have three of these in three different sizes.  1.5 L >hand-held for the galley, 1 gallon (not used much) and the 2 gallon "Ortho."
>They work GREAT for "pressure water," raw or fresh (you might want two to keep them separate), don't add electrical >load, no permanent plumbing and give EXCELLENT regulation of water use.
>If you tried one and found it not to your liking, disregard.   ;)

No we never did get around to trying this, partly because we started trying to skimp and give the renters time to pay. It was on the list, just didnt get to it. Will try one.

>(4) On your roller furling point.  When we are traveling, we generally keep the headsail hanked on.  Raising and lowering >is not too much work.  More work than a furler, but not so much as to prevent raising the sail, even for a short time.

We did this some. I made a mental note every time I thought if I had roller furling that I would use the sail, and I tell you, it was alot. I dunno what we will do ultimately, but I'm very open to RF

>(5) Freezer: A lot of folks end up going the fridge/freezer route.  On a small boat, even a 30 footer, it's going to add its >share of headaches (much increased charging capacity, more stuff to fail, etc).  Not undo-able, of course...just saying it's >not a 'drop in' convenience, as it were.

Yep, I will have to re think the solar requirements, and maybe should add a wind generator. HOWEVER, some wise sage moderator on this board said it best:
"A well-respected KISS sailor once told me that the key to living aboard with my family, especially on a small KISS boat, is "reduction of misery."" 
Who was it that said that?  ::) I need to give them another grog for saying it.
My "family" wants to be able to use frozen meats and veggies like she does at home. Just freezer, not a refrigerator. And if that is the cost to make her happy with the lifestyle, I can figure it out. We are thinking engel, but I'm interested in the keel coolers at this point also, I've heard alot of good things about them.

I'll post more as I think of things.

[Captain Smollett]

Excellent reply!  This is what I love about this site and the back-n-forth we have here.  KISS is not a one-size-fits-all thing at all, and it does not have to mean 'spartan' or uncomfortable.

What we DO have is a reaction to experience rather than a "do it because everyone says so." Maybe some of those saying so are saying based on experience, but, well, many are not.

Craig has pointed out that we need to be careful about the voices we heed.  I can think of no better voice to heed than one's own experience.

Hope that makes sense.

In other words, your boat, your choices!   ;D

Not exactly, even if you have speed...you will still have a qiven possible number of said speeds and use the same mathematical formulas to guestamate a given time, hopefully in daylight, that you may arrive. What I'm saying here is that with the typical distances *we* were likely to do, more speed would have allowed us less gap between possible arrival times, and more time in wonderful anchorages. If I was in a hurry I'd take a plane...but that doesnt mean I want to crawl either.

Two ideas at work here.  One, with no schedule at all, a LOT of speed pressures dissolve.  Maybe that's an "ideal."  Second, with some comfort at staying "out" longer, organizing into watches, etc, the gaps or jumps become less of an issue.

Lin and Larry, for example (eek, I seem to be referencing them a lot lately), advocate working toward getting away from the overnight-36 hour "jump" and move more to multi-day and week long jumps.  It does, of course, depend on where you are "cruising" and what you want to see.

I think in part we have to be careful to distinguish between "cruising" and "delivering" or make a passage to get to cruising grounds.

The East Coast of the US is a good example.  A lot of folks work up or down in one day hops...whether ICW or inside.  Nothing wrong with that, but...it DOES put some pressure on getting to the next anchorage as a "scheduling issue."

As an alternative, L&L say (and others say and do, also) forego that and just make 5-6 day hops.  One thing that comes with this is your reliability in the weather forecast goes down, so you HAVE to have some allowable slop in your arrival time.  It becomes less about "I want to get there by x oclock," for example.

I have hove-to outside a sea buoy waiting for more favorable conditions to enter a port.  We were hove-to outside once for about 10 hours.

I could have chosen to motor in anyway, regardless of condition.  Some would do that.  In some of those cases, getting "in" was the more immediate goal.

I'm not disagreeing with you...at all.  I'm just saying that there are different ways to look at this "problem" of gap-size for the hops working down the coast.  And...as always, it always depends on a LOT of factors....so, no 'right' answer.

>(4) On your roller furling point.  When we are traveling, we generally keep the headsail hanked on.  Raising and lowering >is not too much work.  More work than a furler, but not so much as to prevent raising the sail, even for a short time.

We did this some. I made a mental note every time I thought if I had roller furling that I would use the sail, and I tell you, it was alot. I dunno what we will do ultimately, but I'm very open to RF

Quite a few sail-far-ers have rf and love it...I think it's VERY cool that you had the awareness to note that thought and found it to be an improvement to your boat that you'd like to make.

Yep, I will have to re think the solar requirements, and maybe should add a wind generator. HOWEVER, some wise sage moderator on this board said it best:
"A well-respected KISS sailor once told me that the key to living aboard with my family, especially on a small KISS boat, is "reduction of misery."" 
Who was it that said that?  ::) I need to give them another grog for saying it.
My "family" wants to be able to use frozen meats and veggies like she does at home. Just freezer, not a refrigerator. And if that is the cost to make her happy with the lifestyle, I can figure it out. We are thinking engel, but I'm interested in the keel coolers at this point also, I've heard alot of good things about them.

I'll post more as I think of things.

It was s/v Faith who first said this, so make sure the grog goes to him!  I've 'stolen' it as a mantra and repeat it...but, it's his Intellectual Property (haha...I fit it in on this day).

And, it's a VERY good point.  You boat, your freezer.

Truthfully, I bring up an Engel to my wife probably 3-4 times a year.  Staying in this rental house now, we've commented about adding a fridge/freezer on the boat.

For me, though, it would require two compromises that I'm just not willing to make right now.  One, I could work around.  The other is charging capacity, though...and I just don't have it.  Every time I think about it, I look at the energy budget and it gets blown out.

That's just for me/us, though.  We lived aboard for three years using only ice in coolers/icebox.  In truth, we DID miss fridge/freezer occasionally, but as I said, not enough to make the compromise.  At the slip it would work, of course...but I've always been trying to keep the boat in "at sea" trim as far as this sort of thing goes (my big concession was of course adding AC....).

I'm certainly not saying this as an absolute.  I only wanted to reiterate the caution that a LOT of 'negativity' cruising seems to sprout from the refrigeration unit.  I guess one could argue just as much sprouts from not having one!   ;D

Thanks again for the discussion.  I truly do appreciate, and applaud you, that you are taking these lessons from your cruise.  Wonderful stuff!!

[SeaHusky]

Great reading and just a thought, in caravans there are often (or at least used to be) freezers that can be powered by both propane/butane and electricity.
Are there perhaps any that could be adapted to boat use?

[CharlieJ]

Propane freezers/frigs work well in campers and motor homes. But they must be operated in a level setting- can't do that on something that heels.

As far as I'm concerned, a freezer isn't worth the space- and this after two and half years aboard. We used ice and really did without that all during our 3 mos Bahamas time.

As for meats, self canned stuff is far better than store bought canned stuff, and last for a long time. I have some here at the house that Laura canned a year ago- still quite good. Best thing about it is it isn't loaded with sodium as the canned stuff often is. She canned ground meat, roast beef, pork chunks, ground sausage, link sausage, and chicken. Used half- pint jars which left no leftovers.     

[SeaHusky]

I think a recipe is required to go with that post.  :)

[JWalker]

>Lin and Larry, for example (eek, I seem to be referencing them a lot lately), advocate working toward getting away from the >overnight-36 hour "jump" and move more to multi-day and week long jumps.  It does, of course, depend on where you are >"cruising" and what you want to see.


Morgan and I talked alot about this. We have met cruisers on this journey that felt both ways. We personally think we would be more into voyaging to where we want to be cruising, and then cruising. At least for now. You are exactly right, the reason we were trying to get in in the daylight was because we were doing short hops, which for this journey, and in this boat was the right thing to do. And even had the weather cooperated and we did the overnight jump to tarpon, its still just a single night.....I can see taking off and four days later arriving in key west. Not to say that doing short hops is bad or anything, but at this point, we have places we would like to be and experience....so voyaging makes sense to us, AND in truth, morgan and I have felt like we have been voyaging, trying to get to they keys. So this makes alot of sense to *us*



>As for meats, self canned stuff is far better than store bought canned stuff

Morgan had done some canning on board, and I wanted her to do more, but she did a batch of ground beef and it turned out like dog food. She kinda lost interest at that point, and hasent canned since. I think I will be able to talk her in to practicing more, but at this point, the pressure cooker is for baking.

[JWalker]

By the way, Thanks for all the comments from everyone!

Its really nice to know people are reading!  :D

[Grime]

I have enjoyed reading your adventure. I keep up with Charlie J and his cruising. It give me a better in site on the 4 W's.

We hope to leave here the latter part of March. I have one problem to figure out. I have to be back in S.A. every 60 days for my cancer check up. Any suggestion anyone on how to do this.

[JWalker]

Man, back every 60 days....that would be tough. I don't suppose you can schedule treatments along your route?

Charlie, thanks for the heads up on the gathering place. Good food!

[CharlieJ]

Isn't the owner lady a hoot? Did she have her striped socks on?

[CharlieJ]

Man, back every 60 days....that would be tough. I don't suppose you can schedule treatments along your route?

David has to go to the VA hospital in San Antonio for his treatments, sad to say. He'll probably have to ride a bus, or rent a car.

[JWalker]

Yes she was wearing her striped socks.  ;D

[David_Old_Jersey]

Some thoughts.

This was a discovery trip for us.........

Nice post  :)

Always a difference between what can be done and what actually want to do - the "answer" on that varies for each - at the end of the day boats are meant to be enjoyable  :)

[Seafarer]

With regards to your anchoring questions, there is an excellent book called the Complete Guide to Anchoring and Line Handling that answers pretty much every question you can have.

I used it to do my first splices, and they're still in use on my chain snubber. I also used it to design my ground tackle system, and I am extremely happy with the choices I've made.

Regardless, for your Yankee Dolphin I'd suggest a Rocna 15 (33lbs) as your primary anchor. Put a Kong swivel on it and then at least 50' of 1/4" HT chain and at least 150' of 1/2" 3-strand anchor line. You could go 5/8" with the line if you are uncomfortable with 1/2" but I don't think it is necessary. Put at least one massive cleat in the foredeck for anchoring and towing use. Get serious chafe guard. Firehose is terrific stuff!

This is overkill ground tackle that will let you sleep at night. Technically that anchor could hold Starquest in most conditions and bottoms. After a lot of research (some of it the hard way) I use a 25kg/55lb Rocna, Kong swivel, and all-chain 3/8th BBB rode with rope snubber. I'll be upgrading to 3/8 HT eventually to bring the chain up to the strength of the swivel. I am (more-or-less) permanently anchored with just this single anchor, and I don't budge!

The down-side to the oversize Rocna is, of course, pulling it up. You will likely need to power it out or use a winch of some sort. There is a space on the shank of the anchor for attaching a trip line, and I would highly recommend doing so! Attach a float to the line and it serves as an anchor marker as well.

[JWalker]

Seafarer, you sound like you've drug before!  ;)

[Seafarer]

I was anchored in the Manatee River near the first bridge- too tall to go under it to the very protected cove on the other side which has a small community of people living aboard small sailboats (all around 25'). I was using the only anchor I had at the time- a large danforth that had held me from March to October in the hard-pack sand of Boca Ciega Bay. The river, however, has a mud bottom. A storm came through and there was about 30 seconds of 60 knot winds which broke the anchor free. It went into a milk crate on the bottom and couldn't reset, allowing the boat to drag a mile down river and run aground just off the dock of the only people in the area that I actually knew! It was a storm-driven high-tide so Starquest stayed aground for a month until another storm-driven high-tide floated her off. By that time the Rocna was on the chain and she has stayed where I left her ever since!

Starquest is actually aground in this picture. This was how I found her shortly after she drug. In the foreground is the bow of a Carolina Skiff on a lift at the end of a dock.


This is low tide a couple weeks later. I bought chest waders and a tile scraper and cleaned the hull while the situation presented itself. The boat is actually further from the dock than in the first picture.