Boat broker frustrations...

[w00dy]

Hey guys

I would like some feedback from you concerning your experiences with boat brokers, as I may be becoming rather prejudiced as a result of some less than satisfying interactions.


*Disclaimer* Before anybody here becomes offended, please let me state that I'm not intending to castigate the profession of yacht brokers in general, but rather vent my frustration at certain individuals who give the rest of them a bad name.

I spent some time recently helping my dad select a boat for himself to the extent that I flew out to Florida to look at a few and went to inspect some other boats nearby, with the purpose of ascertaining which would pass the quality test and go to offer/survey. All the boats that I looked at were being sold through a brokerage of some sort or another. Now, I realize the broker is working for a commission and acting on behalf of the boat owner, but after my experiences in dealing with these "yacht professionals", I was not impressed.

The first boat that I looked at was shown by the broker himself. Before our appointment, I specifically asked him to leave the engine alone so I could start it myself when it was cold. I arrived at the marina early and what did I find but the broker down in the cockpit, warming up the engine. When I confronted him, he said "I wanted to make sure you would hear how well it was running...." I sighed and let it go for the time being. The boat was not impressive, but the price was great for a boat in "sail-away" condition. It didn't take long for me to home in on some cracking in the fiberglass deck around one of the shrouds. I went below to look for the source of the movement and found that most of the bulkhead had rotted away. The top half of the chainplate was bolted to the old bulkhead and the bottom half was bolted to the new plywood. But the plywood wasn't attached to anything else! It wasn't tabbed in to the hull or anything! Just hanging from the shroud chainplate, basically. And this boat had been advertised as "Ready to go sailing!"


The next broker I dealt with was very friendly and simply gave me the keys to the boat, telling me to knock myself out. Well, I did and found the bulkhead tabbing delaminating in 4 different areas, not to mention some cabinhouse rot, neither of which was mentioned before I flew out to Florida. When I brought this up with the broker, he suddenly became very condescending and told me that he hadn't seen any evidence of this and that only a qualified marine surveyor's opinion was worth any weight in negotiations. I offered to show him what I'd found, but he suddenly had somewhere else to be and told me to get in touch with him if we were still interested.

So, by the time I was talking to the third yachtbroker, it might be fair to say that I was on the defensive, and perhaps overly critical.  I asked pretty specific questions, but most of the answer I got back didn't satisfy me. I wasn't sure if it was because the broker just wasn't very knowledgeable or if he was keeping his mouth shut on purpose. I got the feeling that he (and the other brokers) were wolves, used to dealing with sheep. What really got to me was that when I asked about getting in touch with the owner, the broker became adamant that all contact should go through him and that he would answer all my questions, which turned out to be a wash because I spent time typing up a list of questions to be forwarded to the owner and when it was returned, only half the questions were answered, with short yes/no answers. ARgh!

Anyway, after that, Dad was probably tired of me disqualifying his potential boats (sorry, I'm just picky I guess) and went ahead and bought one without my nod of approval. He did his due diligence and hired a surveyor, but it must have been one the broker recommended, because he got charged a lot of money for a list of boat appliances and observations about the "crisp new upholstery" and the broker missed some pretty obvious major stuff, or at least he didn't type it up in the report.

So, to sum it up, I was disappointed with having to deal with a bunch of supposedly "professional" intermediaries who didn't turn out to be as trustworthy as their websites claimed. (Seriously, if your website proclaims your "honesty and integrity" that means it must be true, right?)

Sorry for the wall of text and I once again state that this was not meant to generalize the profession as a whole, but just my bad luck of the draw.

Oh yeah....So after looking at the first boat, which was the one with the warmed up engine, the broker left and I ended up hanging around to eat a bit. I started talking with another boat owner at the marina and he told me that the engine in question had been pickled at some point and recently rebuilt. It was apparently notoriously unreliable. Local knowledge is the best!

[skylark]

I worked as a boat broker a few years ago, it is a difficult job.  The broker does not do repairs or maintenance, he has to convince the owner to do that work.  Normally the owner is supposed to clean the boat but if you want the boat to sell, as broker you probably will need to do some cleanup.  It is embarassing how dirty some owners will leave their boat.

As a buyer, you should select your own surveyor and the surveyor should be working for you.  It is not the brokers job to list all problems with the boat.  When looking at the boat to write a description for advertisement, the broker might run across problems.  Sometimes it is better to mention obvious problems.  The problem is that buyers think that the broker is supposed to know everything about the boat when in fact you may be representing 40 boats and sometimes can't remember the details between one and the other.  It is best to go by what is written in the description. 

I agree that it is not fair to write a description that leaves out obvious problems.  However, the broker is not an inspector or surveyor, their job is to take pictures and write an advertisement, then be there to take calls, show the boat, help with negotiations and close out the sale.  The inspection and identification of problems is the responsibility of the buyer.  The broker gets into trouble when they start listing problems because when you start a list, the buyer then expects that the list is complete.  That is the surveyor's job because the surveyor is independent of the seller and broker, and the surveyor is getting paid for the inspection and report.

I agree that some brokers are dishonest and difficult to deal with.  But I see the bigger problem is that buyers have expectations that are outside of reality, expecting that all problems of a boat are discovered and reported by the broker.  My opinion is that it is the buyer's job to inspect the boat and discover about 80% of the more visible problems, and the surveyor's job the find the rest.

Describing a boat as sail ready when it has a chainplate problem is pretty much criminal in my opinion, so I agree with you on that.

[s/v necessity]

When we were shopping for boats we found a broker whom we liked (didn't buy a boat with him though) and he was honest enough to make it clear that it was his job to show the boat, and talk it up it's good points, function as a go between with the owner and help us find a boat that would suit our needs.  However as a broker he made it clear that it was inappropriate for him to point out any deficiencies with a boat, or to agree with us that they existed.  But he was honest enough to say things like "you might want to get a survey on this one"  and we were left to read between the lines...

Our experience with brokers was a decent enough, probably because we understood the limits of their usefulness.  The real horrorshow began when we started to meet the owners!!!   These people somehow felt that we were duty bound to purchase their boat, or we were scum.  Easily pushier, more argumentative, and more outright dishonesty than with any of the brokers.  I cant tell you how many times we tried to politely excuse ourselves with some sort of comment like "doesn't really suit my eye"  and the owner would prevent our exit and try to give us a lesson on why their boat was a great buy and we were making a huge mistake.

It would go something like this.  "Well before you leave can you please tell me why you don't want to purchase my boat?"  And I would attempt to decline to no avail, and so finally I would say "well sir your side decks are soft and the mast step is busted and collapsing"  and this would usually elict a response like "That's a load of bull, those decks are prefectly fine and that mast step has been expertly repaired!!!!"  Keep in mind the decks were flexing close to an inch when we walked on them and the mast support had been sistered with a short piece of oak and a couple of nails....  Then often the owner would go into some sort of long tirade detailing his sailing pedigree and how he was an expert and I was "neophyte".

Ok so only one seller was that bad, but there were others who were pushy and unpleasant for sure.  There were plenty who were nice I too.  However, If all the broker is good for is preventing me from having to meet the owner, then I say the broker is well worth it!!!  

[Oldrig]

I bought two boats through brokers. The first broker merely located the type of boat that I wanted, put me in touch with the owners and bowed out. My father and I still gave him a commission because this was a hard-to-find vessel (a Marshall catboat), and the owners had not even considered selling until contacted by the broker.

I did not find this broker to be an especially friendly person--he just found a boat and bowed out. But his commission wasn't very high on this particular transaction.

I also purchased my current boat through a broker. He proved to be very straightforward. He let me look at the boat when it was on the hard and urged me to get a survey. I chose my own surveyor, who gave me a very thorough analysis of the boat's strong and weak points. The surveyor also suggested I contact the owner and give the boat a sea trial.

I did this in company with the owner and surveyor (I paid to have the boat re-launched), and the rest is history.

Major caveats: If the price of the boat is high enough for a broker to be involved, and you really think you want to buy it, you should hire your own surveyor. As previously stated, the broker is usually retained to represent the seller and is under no obligation to point out a boat's shortcomings.

However, it is possible to hire a broker to look for a specific boat for you -- which my father did back in 1988.

Remember, too, that brokers (along with everybody else in the recreational boating industry) are pretty hungry right now. So the less scrupulous of the breed may be putting commission ahead of honorable behavior.

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

My only experiences with brokers have been me as a passive, third party observer.  All of my boat purchases so far have been "man to man" individual deals.

That said, here are my observations, with one offered from each side of the fence.

The boat slipped next to us, a Morgan 32, has been for sale for YEARS.  I've never seen the broker show it to one single potential buyer.   In fact, that particular brokerage has several boats 'listed' in that marina, and I' could not identify that broker if I bumped into him on the street.

I did more to help that owner selling his boat than the broker did....I steered potential buyers  over to look at her (those that asked me "know of any boats for sale?" without a real idea of what they wanted) and answered questions when 'cold visitors' and dock walkers asked about her.  I didn't know much, and tried to stay out of it as much as I could, but I did offer to contact the seller (he lives about a four hour drive away) and let them know if they were interested in learning more.

Score 1 against that particular brokerage in my opinion.

The next one is an odd case.  The owner of an Albin 27 power boat got unable to live aboard and cruise for a while, and ended up giving his brother Power of Attorney to sell her.  The brother decided to sell rather than put her on the hard or continue slip fees.

The brother 'coaxed' two dock mates to assist in the sale, and one of them happened to be a Six-Pack licensed captain and run his own private brokerage.  The ticket would come in handy for taking potential buyers out for a test cruise.

I heard the "back-end" discussion from these two dock mates, and the gist was "I cannot wait til that boat sells...wish we never got involved."  It turned out to be a HUGE time sink.  The potential buyers were very picky and very demanding.

One family requested (and received) not one but THREE 'test cruises.'  They did not buy the boat.

The dudes helping to sell the boat lost money on a time-for-hire basis...they spent a LOT of time showing that boat before it sold.  They made token peanuts.  The sale price was $5000, and any commission on that gets chewed up pretty quick ...

So, Net Score 0.

I guess as with so many things boating, "it depends."  I personally don't like the IDEA of using a broker, but then again, I'm not the market of "investing" a half million dollars, either.

I think for "sailfar" sized and priced boats, brokers generally don't make much sense.    I think of it like real estate agents...different ball game on a million dollar property than buying a tent from your neighbor.  I'm more of a buy a tent from my neighbor kind a guy, I guess.

Good luck with the boat search; seems like yatchworld, sailingtexas and owner's group sites on the Internet are positive way to go...

And the best two are word-of-mouth and just driving by and seeing a boat for sale in someone's yard.  those are the methods that have worked for us, anyway.   ;)

[s/v necessity]

"And the best two are word-of-mouth and just driving by and seeing a boat for sale in someone's yard.  those are the methods that have worked for us, anyway."

+1 I couldnt agree more.  I've always theorized that part of our misery resulted from the fact that we were using the internet to locate boats.

[w00dy]

Skylark, you must be right. The responsibility to sell someone's aging "beauty" probab ly isn' t an easy one, nor would having to deal with picky customers with unreasonable expectations be much fun.
Also, I realize that having an intermediary and escrow service can be very important in a transaction. Well, now I feel like I have a realistic idea of what to expect in the future anyway.

You guys are right, I'd much rather find a boat by word of mouth.

[skipmac]

Just bumped into this thread and have to comment.   Long ago in a galaxy far away I was a broker myself.   I like to think I was an honest and thorough broker, would try to qualify a boat based on the buyer's requirements and give him or her an honest appraisal of the boat, especially before they made a long trip to FL to look.   I met a number of other brokers who worked the same way.

On the other hand there were plenty of brokers whose only goal was to make the sail.   In fact one boss I had heard me tell a buyer that the boat he liked was totally inappropriate for his stated plans.  I was told that I should tell a buyer whatever he wanted to hear to get him to buy the boat which I refused to do.

When I started the search for my latest boat I contacted a couple of brokers and have to admit I was completely disappointed in all I spoke with.   One guy who bought a boat and retired from some sort of financial services job and obviously knew very, very little about boats tried to sell me totally inappropriate boats.  Another, after I gave him very exact specs on what I was looking for 36-44', center cockpit, cutter rig, modified fin keel, skeg hung rudder, kept sending me listings for aft cockpit, full keel ketches.   At least they were in the right size range.


I think there are still some good, honest, knowledgeable and hard working brokers out there but I think they are getting harder to find.

[Bonzai]

I have only 2 experiences with brokers.1 very good and 1 very bad.Randy from Cape Yacht Brokers on Merrit Island,Fl was the very good one.The other guy was not a boatman by any standard,just a salesman.The lesson I took away is to be certain they are very knowledgeable and the best assurance of that is time spent ON boats...not just selling them.