Porter's Boat Search

[Jim_ME]

Porter, Oh, good. :)

I did in part post what was mainly a response to Charlie in your thread since you had expressed an interest in Meridian, thinking that it might be of general interest--as an example that there are bargains out there, even if this particular boat is not for you. More generally, it is always rewarding to share the finding of a true SailFar boat with all here.

This Meridian does seem to need far less work than Tehani did, so it would not necessarily mean taking on that extensive a project and commitment. As Charlie said, this is what he does for a living. Few would have the skills, tools, facilities, and ability to do what they did with Tehani.

One way to take on such a project and yet not hold one's sailing life hostage is, as many here including me have done, to have more than one boat and to sail one while working on another in tandem as a longer-term project. I sailed my Typhoon while working on a larger boat for the future, and am still trying to do some version of that now, for financial reasons. Again, this is not for everyone.

Let me post this now and continue in another to answer your question, and to discuss something else that I have been thinking about...

[CharlieJ]

Jim_me-
let me correct one thing

DID for a living ;D Charlie is now retired.

Well, I will be, as soon as I finish the custom woodwork on the Tartan 37 down at the marina that people brought over for me to work on :D

Unless something else really interesting appears that will only take a week  or two. Don't want to cut too deeply into my kayaking, fishing and other sailing ;)

Oh, and as an aside- Tehani was three days away from the chainsaws when a friend saved her. She had been abandoned for 15 years. SHE was worth it.

[Jim_ME]

Jim_me-
Oh, and as an aside- Tehani was three days away from the chainsaws when a friend saved her. She had been abandoned for 15 years. SHE was worth it.

I would say that you made her worth it.

It is a remarkable story. That a boat so close to destruction is rescued, trailered across the country, lovingly restored, and put back into service--and then goes on a second-life adventure that no doubt makes its previous one pale by comparison.

Grog to you.  :)

[CharlieJ]

Also- I'm sorry if I clouded the issue. My whole point was to show that boats could be gotten home with no trailer. In fact, that's exactly how I got my current boat, Necessity, home way back when (1983)- a 16 foot hay trailer, borrowed, and some 2 x 12 planks crossed under as supports.

I know it's difficult, long distance, to evaluate a boat.. Many owners see their boat through "used to be" eyes, instead of "what is now" eyes. The boats turn out to be badly neglected, near derelicts, but "in perfect shape" because that's how it was when they quit sailing it, umpteen years ago. And unless you are prepared, and yes, equipped to do the restore, it can be extremely frustrating. Fortunately the folks I sold Necessity to 8 years ago maintained her, and even did some upgrades, so I don't have to do much.

But if I should get another boat after her, at my age I sure don't want to spend the months, and months on a restore. Or even spend the time building one. I built a 35 foot trimaran once, for me.  Seven years. Not now!

I'd rather pay a bit more, and sail the boat, not fix the boat. Already got the Tee shirts from that ;D

[David_Old_Jersey]

Jim,
So just how bad is it? The Meridian, I mean.

Careful!.......asking questions like that is how project boat purchases start  ;D

[Jim_ME]

What I have been thinking now for a few days, after looking at the photos of the Alberg 22, and from spending some time in a Seasprite? Beautiful as it looks, it seems to essentially be the Seasprite 22 hull with a larger cabin trunk. I am concerned that the Alberg 22 will just be too small for you to enjoy doing much cruising aboard.

Looking at the Alberg interior, it seems more like a comfortable overnighter/weekender. I tried to imagine myself cruising in that boat (either alone or with another) and spending time in the cabin in the evenings or on a rainy or other down day. There just is not enough volume there. The sitting headroom above the settee berths seems considerably less than the Cape dory 25.

Both the A22 and CD25 have 3-foot draft so there is no penalty in going to the larger boat there. Since you have already upgraded to a full-sized pickup, it seems like you probably have about 5,000 pounds of towing capacity. Similarly, once your boat is over 3,000 pounds that generally means a tandem-axle trailer, and with two 3500-lb axles you can increase the boat size a fair amount at no additional cost. The CD25 has a basic galley and a (somewhat) separate/enclosed head space and hanging locker.

When I was sailing my Typhoon, (daysailing mostly) I had the advantage of knowing that I had another larger boat that would eventually solve any lack of room and cruising accommodations. I was just sleeping in the cabin overnight, as one might in a pup tent?not spending any awake time in the cabin.

The CD25 seems to me to be about the minimum size that one would need to enjoy some cruising. There are roomy unconventional boats that have a lot of room, such as the Westerly boats (W22 Nomad, Warwick 22, Pageant 23, etc. and similar designs, but you are looking at more traditional designs). The Meridian and Ariel are even better, but when you go up to a boat over 5,000 pounds (and the nearly 4-foot draft of the Ariel) you do lose some ease of trailerability, and I would think would need more than a basic half ton pickup to tow longer distances. It may still be worth it, as it is for Tim, yet he does also have the Typhoon for use when more convenience is the main consideration (and has the cockpit tent to create more room).

[Jim_ME]

As far as the Meridian project... when I looked at it maybe 5 years ago, it had an area near the heel of the keel where the hull was crushed through where it sat on a block (possibly some ice freezing in the bilge there contributed). I see from the photos that a repair has been done to that area.

I could feel areas of the deck that were soft from deck core deterioration. That is a big project. Maybe the current owner has repaired some of that. I don't know. The current owner has done some work, but is not completing the restoration is probably an indication of how daunting it is... The long recession may also be a factor for projects like these.

As I recall the boats rig was just the wooden mast. I don't recall that it had any standing or running rigging or sails.

Anyway, although the boat is "free" and a great design, it needs major investment--a labor of love.

I would think that you would be far better off getting something like the CD25 for $3900
http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/2939852751.html
maybe transporting it home in a cradle on a rented flatbed.

I just saw this CL ad that includes a CD25 in Detroit for $2800
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/boa/2968783397.html

[Captain Smollett]

I am concerned that the Alberg 22 will just be too small for you to enjoy doing much cruising aboard.

BLASPHEMY!

;D ;D

We are a family of four and are currently planning trips on our 18 footer.  Big for an 18, but still...


(I jest, the real point follows):

Looking at the Alberg interior, it seems more like a comfortable overnighter/weekender.

Which is all we are planning on the little boat.

All the reason why it's important to define "use" before purchase.  We have had, and continue to have, a TON of fun with the little boat.  But it would be mighty difficult to spend more than a few days aboard.  That said, I know a guy that cruised the East Coast from Baltimore to Florida and the Bahamas on a 18 ft Drascombe Lugger.

Also, I second (or third) the notion of having a "sail it now" boat handy during the refit/restore if you get a project boat.  Our A-30 was sailable as purchased, but after four years of the pressure of either light cruising and/or living aboard, it became clear she needed some time off to address some things that needed attention.

Having the trailer boat available, along with the canoe (and the dinghy), is saving my sanity.

I think adaptability is key, also.  What I 'want' to do with my boat(s) I simply cannot do right now.  This has forced me to look at what the real underlying goal is.  In my case, it was explore new-to-us waters by boat, getting my family on the water to see and experience the world around us.

With this, how I get the boat to the "specific" cruising grounds has become less of a priority.  Thus, the trailer boat or the car-topper (canoe) makes a bunch of sense for us right now.

For some, chartering is a good fit, but that's just not for me (for personal reasons) in most cases.

Porter, I wish you luck in your continuing search.  The A22 falling through was a blow, but not an insurmountable one.

As I think Zen once posted...

"Fall down seven times, get up eight."  --Japanese Proverb

You'll find "your boat."

[Porter Wayfare]

When we looked at the CD25 it didn't seem to offer enough additional cabin comfort to justify dealing with its increased size. Remember, we're moving up from a 16' open dinghy. We'd both rather be a little cramped and on the water than dealing with the logistics of a bigger boat and not on the water so much.

We need the flexibility to be able to just take off when the opportunity presents. There are about, oh, I don't know for sure, about two dozen places in the Great Lakes we would love to cruise. Two weeks would be a long cruise for us right now.

Even so, there are two nice Nordic Folkboats for sale near us, one wood and one fiberglass. I looked at the wood boat. It's a beauty. A real femme fatale, I bet.

[Jim_ME]

John, If I ever start saying that I'm concerned that an Alberg 30 is just too small, then you will know that it is time for a SailFar intervention meeting.  ;D

Porter, I do want to share with what I based my opinion about the Alberg 22 on (and comparing it with the CD25, for example).  

Looking at the specs and drawings of the Alberg 22 and the Cape Dory 25...
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=318
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=366

When I look at the profiles and compare the A22 draft dimension (which is 3 feet from the specs) and scale the cabin height from that dimension, it doesn't appear to be much more than that [perhaps 4 feet]. Whereas the CD25 cabin height is about 5 feet. That is quite a  difference. Another nice feature about the CD25 is that with the galley located aft, a taller person can stand at the galley at the open sliding companionway hatch, whereas with the A22 the small galley is shown at the forward end of the main cabin, where there is no hatch. If you look at the A22 profile (side view) drawing and project the end of the cabin trunk down onto the plan view, there would not be much of the berth available for sitting. Many designers would show this as a dashed line (as the CD25 shows the hatch opening).

The most recent A22 did not have the galley counters shown in the drawings, perhaps so that the berths would work better as an over-nighter and would not need the small galley/counters/sink. In the photo of that boat it seemed like the sitting headroom over the berths was considerably less than the CD25 and from the drawing profile the height of the berth above the cabin sole appears to be low (about a foot, whereas I understand that 18 inches is the standard design height).

For cruising, having a cabin that has enough room to sit up in, (and have the feeling of ample space) and to be able sit at a table comfortably, is an important feature. As I wrote, there are days when the weather is bad, and evenings when one may want to read or use a laptop at the table.

An extra 800 pounds of displacement to gain these features may be well worth it, especially when the additional size and weight will add to seaworthiness and kindliness [and the cost of the boats are about the same]. It seems like for cruising the lower end of the optimal (SailFar) range is about 5,000 pounds--the displacement of the Meridian 25, Ariel 26, CD25D, CD26 (models that you were initially considering). So at 4,000 pounds, getting a bit closer to that size is a plus in many respects.

As I wrote earlier, since you have a full-sized pickup and would probably need a tandem-axle trailer even for the A22, I believe that the rest of your equipment/system can handle a 4,000 pound boat. For me, the step from that size up to an Ariel (sized boat) would be a more daunting leap--one that may be too large for a typical half-ton pickup truck, and with the extra foot of draft, larger rig, etc., would make trailer sailing more challenging (Although, still well worth that cost for some, including Tim for example).

I believe that there is a real risk in trying to cruise (even for more than a few days, to use John's timeframe) in a boat that is small and cramped with a cabin is not a reasonably comfortable space to live in, prepare meals in, etc. If that is the boat that one already has, or (as has been my case in the past) all that one can afford, then one can of course make the best of it. Still, I think of the beautiful table and cabin aboard Tehani and how much that must have contributed to the enjoyment of the cruise...  and that it is easier to make the best of it when you can have that kind of snug yet functional and comfortable setup.

Since I spotted the most recent A22 ad and posted it, and studied the photos (in which it looked much like the Sea Sprite) and after studying the drawings I began to better understand the actual size of the boat, and to doubt that it would be something that you would be truly happy with [if you would be doing any cruising]. If you had already bought an A22 it would be too late to revise my initial impression, but since you had not I felt that I owed it to you to give you my opinion. Of course, we all have to weigh what others recommend and use our own best judgment.

I continue to wish you the best in your search,
-Jim

[Jim_ME]

I should probably share a bit more of my backgound on this...

After owning a few larger boats, I moved from Down East Maine back to Southern Maine, and with the cost of getting another house and carring the old one, the cost of operating a larger boat was going to be too much for the foreseeable future. My girlfriend and I had mostly done daysailing in recent years, so we felt that getting a smallish trailerable boat would work. We started looking at daysailers like the ODay Daysailer 16, Rhodes 19, sized boats. I has sailed on smaller boats, but she had only sailed with me on larger keel boats, and was accustomed to that level of stability and feelings of security. After much looking at boats, the conclusion was that a Typhoon 19 was about as small as she was going to feel comfortable on. I got the Triad trailer to keep the operating costs about as reasonable as the smaller boats, and to maintain self sufficiency, and perhaps do some trailer sailing.

We did have more fun on the Typhoon together than we ever sis on the larger boats, not because the typhoon was inherently better than the larger boats, but because her main interest was in daysailing, and my main interest was doing things that we could share. So now the boat was the right size and cost for the kind of sailing we would actually be doing. If we had been trying to do any cruising, I do believe that it would not have been much fujn in the Typhoon. I enjoyed it very much as a seaworthy daysailer and overnighter, but spending time in its small "cabin" was pretty much for sleeping overnight and sailing back home the next day. No even small galley, counter, built-in icebox, sink, or table. Just a V-berth and two smallish (children sized, really) quarterberths You picked the weather window to prevent getting stuck aboard in conditions where a real cabin might be needed. It was fine, and we had enjoyed the daysailing in Casco Bay for about 4 years before parting ways.

I moved back Down East and continued to sail the Tyhoon, sailing solo often. It continued to be an enjoyable boat. One evening I invited two acquaintences for a sunset sail. These women had been lifelong friends and shared many interests. It was an interesting exception. One could not wait to get back to shore, the other did not want to come back. The first never wanted to go sailing again, the other wanted to go sailing every chance she got, and her love of sailing just got stronger each time out. Rain, shine, near gale...could not matter less. YMMV. I guess so.

Anyway, I began to sail out to various islands and then around and beyond the islands. One afternoon beating back in from Petit Manan into a stiffening breeze and going forward to take down the genoa and put up the working jib, and looking around at nothing but whitecaps, and little else--no other boats in sight--I appreciated how along we really were. Maybe I should get and install a bow pulpit, I thought... I had been thinking about how I might add many of the features that the cabin lacked.

Still the cockpit volume was too big and there was no bridge deck.  I could cram the cabin full of creative creature comforts, but it would still be a tiny cabin. It occurred to me that for the cost of buying a bow pulpit and doing some other improvements I could just sell the Typhoon and get a larger boat. I had admired the Seasprite and since it seemed like a grownup Typhoon (with a bow pulpit, bridge deck, larger cabin, and so on) , it seemed like a natural choice. I bought it, oved it home in a cradle on a rented flatbed. Sold the Typhoon, but kept the trailer. Maybe I could use the trailer for the Sea Sprite, or eventually another Typhoon sized boat.

I admired the Sea Sprite's lovely lines, and would get up into the cockpit and it seemed ideal with its nice bridge deck and high companionway, and would then go into the cabin. Hmmm... After some period of time I realized that this was not going to do. The one of the most beautiful boats that I have ever seen embodies the worst of both worlds...too big (heavy, large rig) to be convenient and yet too small a cabin to be practical for cruising. Do I really want to invest in trying to add those features and try to make this into a real cabin, or would that still be too much cramming? Did I really want to modify the trailer for this boat?

I sold the boat without ever launching it.

I am sure that there are others out there who are completely happy with their Seasprite. When I see one on a mooring, I still think...what a beautiful boat...but now add... somebody else's boat. 

YMMV :)

[Porter Wayfare]

Good morning,

Yes, I think I know what you mean. My wife and I looked first at a Typhoon. Sitting together in the cabin we knew it was just not big enough. We could sit there, but we couldn't really move.

We too thought the Seasprite would be the answer and drove about 500 miles to see one that was already sold just to check it out. We climbed down into the cabin and it was immediately apparent to us it wasn't going to work either.

So then after checking out a few larger boats, one of them a CD25, we finally happened on an Alberg 22. We were pleasantly satisfied with the cabin size and feel. It's not a solution for a month-long cruise, or maybe it is, but we feel it will do nicely for a couple of weeks.

That aside, the big news is: yesterday I found two Ariels in Detroit for sale. Hulls number 39 and 135. They are not complete basket cases yet, but they each have one foot in the basket. These were my first experiences with an Ariel so I don't have anything to compare them to, but the decks seemed soft to me. The interiors were pretty shot. Rigging and spars OK, I guess. #39  had an Atomic 4, #135 was outboard.

They're both at the most interesting "Detroit Boat Works Boatyard," proprietor Stephen Hume. See here: http://seaport.findthebest.com/l/5991/Detroit-Boat-Works-Wharf
And here: http://www.detroitblog.org/?p=867  And here: http://usedboatsofdetroit.com/

Like I said, this was a really interesting place.

Onward,
Porter

[Jim_ME]

I think that there is a good case to be made for going up to an Ariel sized boat. You do sacrifice much ease of trailer ability, but it is the very qualities that detract from that which make the boat so much more seaworthy and kindly, as you may have discussed in a previous post.

You are increasing the size of the boat by 2,000 pounds over an A22 (or Sea Sprite 23) or about 60%, but you gain room that you can cruise on so much more comfortably, even if it is only two weeks or a month, but also for longer. I would suggest reading Craig's thread of his voyage with his wife and dog aboard Faith, if you haven't already (and Charlie and Laura?s aboard Tehani, and others)  

The Great Lakes can get very rough [A point that John has stressed earlier] and there is a huge difference between an A22 and an Ariel in rough conditions. Having a boat that can handle that is not only valuable when you may encounter those conditions, but know that she can is like insurance and allows you to make decisions to cruise in a way that takes more reasonable risks of encountering such weather.

Like Tim, with his Ariel and Typhoon, John with his A30 and Sanibel 18, myself with the Centaur and Corinthian 19, (and others on this site and beyond), it may work out better to have a 5k-lb (or somewhat close to it such as the CD25) cruising boat and a smaller boat that you can easily take on trailer-sails, even if it is a daysailer like a Rhodes 19 CB or Mariner 19, and you camp/tent out at a state park and daysail/overnight. I have enjoyed that a lot in the past and look forward to doing more of it. That two-boat approach gives you the best of both worlds, and you can easily get and maintain two modest boats for far less than many spend on a single biggish sailboat.

Even if you have the 5,000-lb boat lifted off/on by the yard (as Tim said that he does with his Ariel) I can understand that it is still well worth it. I do believe that with the right trailer, and long extension tongue, etc, you could get setup to float off and on if that was your goal. Bruce (SV Puff) and others do it with their Snapdragon 26s, which are even heavier. The Ariel's deeper draft would mean more extension and a ramp with enough depth, etc.        

[Jim_ME]

I just saw this ad for an Ariel, described as restored and has a tandem trailer...

1966 Pearson Ariel Sailboat - $7000 (Lake Hefner, Oklahoma)

http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/boa/2926120501.html

[CharlieJ]

That aside, the big news is: yesterday I found two Ariels in Detroit for sale. Hulls number 39 and 135. They are not complete basket cases yet, but they each have one foot in the basket. These were my first experiences with an Ariel so I don't have anything to compare them to, but the decks seemed soft to me. The interiors were pretty shot. Rigging and spars OK, I guess. #39  had an Atomic 4, #135 was outboard.

They're both at the most interesting "Detroit Boat Works Boatyard," proprietor Stephen Hume. See here: http://seaport.findthebest.com/l/5991/Detroit-Boat-Works-Wharf
And here: http://www.detroitblog.org/?p=867  And here: http://usedboatsofdetroit.com/

Like I said, this was a really interesting place.

Onward,
Porter

All else being equal, I'd opt for the one with the outboard-

Cheaper to replace, more room below for stowage. And the new 4 stroke OB's are stone reliable. I have around 600 hours on my Yamaha, and it's never missed a beat, except once when water got in to the gas. Not the engine's fault.

[Porter Wayfare]

Yes, I've talked to the owner of that boat. I PM'ed someone on this site about it. Part of the PM was

"I am currently looking into Ariel #304. Here is a link to some of its history: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1021-Pearson-Ariel-304&highlight=Legalair

I saw that you commented on that thread and I wonder if you know anything that might help me in deciding whether to drive from Michigan to Oklahoma to see it. I'd like to have a local surveyor look at it first, but I'm not having much luck finding one. A name in that regard would also help."

I'm not so sure anymore that I want to go so far for a boat. And I still wonder about the quality of the restoration. It might be fine, but I haven't been able to figure out how to determine that for lack of a surveyor.

On my way to look at another Ariel down in the City.
Porter

[Jim_ME]

This may be off to the side or backward in this discussion about your boat, but I will post as a general point following up on my own experience.

I think that part of my experience with the Sea Sprite was that I fell in love with her beautiful lines in books and seeing the exterior long before I ever factored in the practical aspects of the interior space and possible layouts [and how I will actually feel in those spaces, which may not be apparent initially]. With smaller boats, it is possible to do a design that is very well proportioned to itself, and looks wonderful sitting on its own on stands or on the page of a design book. but without an image of something of known size--say a person--to convey a sense of scale, one's eye and heart will make too-optimistic assumptions about the size of boat and accommodation. Sometimes, as I mentioned, the brochure drawings of the boat conveniently omit other lines that would provide a sense of true size (such at the area of the cabin trunk and hatches above the plan, and their impact on the layout regarding sitting headroom areas, etc.). [sometimes things like the lifeline/stanchion/pulpit heights are made smaller to stay in proportion of the small boat cabin and since our mind does have an idea of how high those should be, this can misrepresent the size of the boat. With a person figure shown and the lifelines at kneecap level, it is more difficult to maintain that illusion...  ;) Often these features are somehow not shown on the drawings either...]

I suspect that boat marketing departments know that sailors are romantics and we fall in love with boats long before we get to the stage of cold rational evaluation (and then it may be too late, for a given purchase decision--it was for me and the Sea Sprite...)

To satisfy my own curiosity, I have drawn these in, along with a stick figure of a typical man (roughly scaled from the known draft dimension). It seems like quite a dramatic effect in helping one's mind understand the scale of the boat. Architects often include figures of people in their interior and exterior renderings, to provide a sense of a buildings scale ("human scale" sometimes). In a vacuum of information to use as a known reference, the mind may tend to naturally fill in with a wishful-thinking-filter fully engaged, showing us what we want to see, more than what actually is.

[Edit: I've sketched a similar scale stick figure on the Ariel & CD25 plans, too...and am posting for comparison.]

[Tim]

All else being equal, I'd opt for the one with the outboard-

Cheaper to replace, more room below for stowage. And the new 4 stroke OB's are stone reliable. I have around 600 hours on my Yamaha, and it's never missed a beat, except once when water got in to the gas. Not the engine's fault.

The problem with that is that the new 4 stroke engines do not fit in the old motor wells without modification to one or the other.

[Jeremy]

The problem with that is that the new 4 stroke engines do not fit in the old motor wells without modification to one or the other.

That may sometimes or even often be the case, Tim, but wasn't for me.  A 4-stroke 6-hp Yamaha fits without modification and plenty of room to spare in the well in my Meridian.  I know Tehani had the larger 2 cylinder 8HP Yamaha which may (or may not) have required modification.  I can't speak to Ariels or other vessels.  Certainly something to consider, though.

[CharlieJ]

Yep, I know. Had to modify on Tehani. Well worth it though.

Can actually TALK in the cockpit when running, 3 times better fuel economy. Yes,  three times better.

Had to remove a cowling from the leg- it was just for show anyway. Then had to enlarge to opening in the bottom of the well a bit. Took maybe 45 minutes all told. WELL worth it.  And I LOVE the Yamaha- has the shifter out on the motor handle, so it's right there.

Jeremy- our 8 is exactly the same engine as the 6, with a different carb.. Same dimensions, and weight. 6 hp might be different now, but wasn't in 06.