What is considered "small" here? What is considered "big"?

[s/v necessity]

Couple thoughts...   
"We as a culture believe growth is necessary, sustainability is often not considered. It is a measure of success to most. "  -I have always thought that while graft and growth seem to get along, graft and sustainablity are mutually exclusive.  Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I think our "culture" is a bit focused on less than honest ideals.  (I'm in a dark mood, and full of piss and vinegar today....)

Also, Some folks are up in arms over the new berthing tax for Italy, claiming that it will make cruising in Italy too expensive...   Ahh however it seems that those with boats under 10 meters can feel smug as the tax starts there and is progressive.  I think this is also the case also in a few locations within the carribean.  Smaller boats save money.  Less fees, less bottom paint, less rigging, smaller sails etc etc.  Granted we fully intend to blow any money we save by having a small boat on shoreside activities ;)

[jotruk]

I have a friend that I talk with that has retired from off shore sailing. His last boat was a 40 footer. I have a 27 foot that I really enjoy sailing. I have been thinking about moving up to a 30 footer, but I get to thinking about starting making more payments and more cost for everything for that boat I get cold feet. But my friend keeps insisting that I have to have a 35+ footer to do any sailing that might include going to the islands. The last time he brought it up I ask him if he was willing to make the payments. I think I will keep my paid for 27 footer. That makes sense much easier to approach up grades on this one.

[Captain Smollett]

But my friend keeps insisting that I have to have a 35+ footer to do any sailing that might include going to the islands.

FUD, naysayer, dream killer.   ???

That's why I keep bringing this stuff up...because somewhere, there's a new sailor out there with the dream that's getting it crushed by this simple untruth.

I don't have a problem with HIM choosing a 35 footer, but why does he take the extra step to say that everyone must?

It's a meme in the sailing world..."small is not as good."  Maybe that's a meme in our entire culture, too.

[jpfx]

for some reason I thought of Texas when I read that last line...

[David_Old_Jersey]

The other night, I attended an organizational meeting for the local Youth Sailing Club (only in its second year).  Last year, the club did very well, but over the winter, there was talk of upsizing and fancifying it.

One of the problems with expanding is over expanding ? at the moment may be lots of resources (in this case probably involving a lot of time from Members), but that may not always be the case.

If (some) folks want to expand, why not look to open "Chapters" (Hells Angel style!) - can be in the same location, but IMO better somewhere else (doesn't have to be far). The idea being that each Chapter can be self contained (and self funding!) and operated however the Members want it to, whether expanding or not, but nonetheless can share resources. If a Chapter fails, then it doesn't impact on the other(s).

To keep those who want to expand happy (and occupied!) why not get 'em to work out some formal proposals (that will get rid of half of 'em!) and then an actual business plan (will likely get rid of the rest!) or get the expansion focused on raising money, partnering with local businesses and publicity rather than the actual operations.

Just some thoughts.

FWIW have been mulling over something similar over here, except not aimed at the youth market - but at the unemployed / under-employed. Not so much about sail training (although that could be a part of it) but principally for access to cheap boating from shared ownership - the advantage that folks have with time on there hands being that they are not restricted to weekends only. The disadvantage being less money / uncertainty of income. Am thinking 20' trailor sailor sized vessels, basic fitouts and small (old) outboards - all s/h (or donated) of course and on (cheap) swinging (and drying) moorings....maybe 2 or 3 of them. - probably will come to naught!, but am thinking about it - am a great beleiver in "why not?".

FWIW I have been a member of a Yacht Club for over 30 years, and although not exactly blazer and tie brigade does seem to be more racing focused rather than the "simply messing around in boats" end of the market. But to be fair, I do only visit the club house once a year, on average!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Size is not important - it's what you do with it! (to coin a phrase).

But I think it is a bit disingenuous to not acknowledge that sometimes bigger is better.....with boats as well as for other things. Not to say that does not also come with disadvantages, which may well outweigh any pros. I settled on 30' as the ideal size for me, as meant a boat I could afford to buy and will never eat me out of house and home to run / maintain - plus is capable of going just about anywhere and liveaboard capable for extended periods (if the Skipper knew what he was doing!). If the latter was not a consideration (as a long term option) I would have got something smaller, maybe a Folkboat or (another!) 21' Corribee  :). Sometimes I wish I had! - sometimes my boat is too small, sometimes too big - but mostly just right  ;D. Everyone's answer is different, which is as it should be.

At 30' (boat!) I too pondered how appropriate Sailfar was for me, but I feel happy here as boat size does not seem uber important and more about also having a KISS approach (without going the full hairshirt route). I also like the approach (and thinking) of folks who have bought boats within there own budgets (no matter what size) rather than simply renting them from a bank. But I do have a hang up on being beholden to others.

To my mind Sailfar simply says / acknowledges the reality that folk don't need 35 / 40 / 50 foot of boat nor budgets with several Yikes! on the end of the numbers.....not to say that in certain circumstances that those would not be nice!, but that not the same as need. Knowledge can replace cash. The reverse is not always true! (no matter what the brochure / salesman says!).

Sailfar! - Vive La Difference!

[Jim_ME]

Just to sum up...

Small boats are Good. (And their owners are Virtuous.)
Big boats are Bad. (And their owners are Evil.)

;D

[Godot]

I know happy big boaters. I know unhappy big boaters.
I know happy small boaters. I know unhappy small boaters.

I often (and I mean often) think about the next sailboat. Frankly, I like the layout of my Seafarer 24.  Dinette to port, galley to starboard. Head, v-berth forward. Quarter berth (err...quarter storage are) starboard aft. Based on that beginning, I feel the ideal boat for me would be similar, but a few feet longer (and maybe a little wider) so...

• The forward v-berth would be able to be a couple inches longer in length, with the pointy end being maybe double in width...this would make a huge difference when sleeping forward.


• The head would be able to be enclosed instead of just semi-enclosed. Call me repressed if you wish; but there are some things I don't want to be witnessed doing. The same things, coincidentally, I don't want to witness others doing.


• I'd be able to stand up straight throughout the main cabin. I just need two more inches of headroom!


• The dinette wouldn't be directly under the companionway. Life is better when it is dry below decks. Rain on the dinette cushions (where I usually sleep...see the pointy forepeak comment above) sucks more than a little.

Same layout, spread out. THAT would be perfect (and seems to be what might be available in a Tartan 27, Cal 2-29, and others...hmmm).

The point being that there are points of comfort. My Seafarer might be with me a long time (I am reluctant to spend a lot of money on a replacement at the expense of having to work for 2,5 or 10 extra years before heading out). I figure it is right at my Base Comfort Level. I wouldn't want to go any smaller given my current mission. However, a few extra feet could add significantly to my comfort (I'm not a small man); but not impact complexity, or for the most part, layout, at all (or at least not much). I do lust after a boat where I don't have to squeeze myself into certain parts. This revised spec is what I currently consider my Ideal Comfort Level.

My mission statement is currently inshore (Chesapeake...how to qualify) to coastal sailing. If offshore passage-making became the goal, I would be much more likely (though no guarantees) to change. Still, seaworthiness in a small hull is not rare.

I give, however, no derision to those who prefer bigger. If it makes them feel more confident, more power to them. Perhaps they have a smaller threshold of discomfort? No one wants to be miserable (more than once I've heard the argument that "I don't want to feel like I'm camping." Fair enough.). Even if it is an ego thing, that is their call. I like big boats, too. I just don't want to deal with the hassle and expense of owning one.

[Captain Smollett]

I know happy big boaters. I know unhappy big boaters.
I know happy small boaters. I know unhappy small boaters.

...

An excellent post, Adam.  Thank-you, and grog.

One point, though (not that I disagree, but that I want to clarify):

I give, however, no derision to those who prefer bigger. If it makes them feel more confident, more power to them. Perhaps they have a smaller threshold of discomfort? No one wants to be miserable

I give no derision, either, contrary to how I might seem to think based on posts here.

But I do think that it is worth emphasizing that bigger does not always = more comfort.

On one particular, very specific point - comfort at sea, in a seaway - the "meme" exists that bigger = more comfort.  I can name a dozen boats or so boats under 30 ft that are at least as, if not more so, comfortable in "trying conditions" than boats 50 or 60% bigger.

THAT's my caveat...that some people make a decision to purchase a "voyaging" boat based on what they've read (that LOA is the deciding factor) or been told and it goes unchallenged.

Then, the reality of an inferior hull design sets in and NEVER gets proper blame. 

Its the "deception" that bothers me, though I am not saying that I think it's intentional.  I just cannot think of a better term.  The assumption that LOA = comfort by ALL definitions of the word comfort is my problem.

I have one other one, too...the very notion that one boat is good at all things.

If you (rhetorical you....) want a coastal cruiser and know the 'criteria' that make a good one, the trade-offs you can accept, that's a BIG step toward finding a boat you will enjoy.

But...what of the noobs, or those that have 'drunk the Kool Aid,' who read that the Whiz-Bang 45 is a great boat but miss the fine print that says "for sitting at the dock and entertaining friends but not for crossing even moderately big water if rough conditions are possible"? 

This misinformation is part of the grander dream killing process.  It's a form of 'naysaying,' or at least it seems so to me.

So, I don't disagree with a word of your message...I'm just expanding on the idea that you presented. 

[Godot]

There are always exceptions. Large, lightly built boats might have more motion than small, heavy boats. Racing boats with no interior to speak of will almost always be less comfortable as a place to lounge than a cruising boat, no matter the size. But, given two boats with similar missions, the majority of the time the larger boat will be more comfortable at sea, and almost always more comfortable at anchor when used as a home instead of a vehicle.

When purchasing a boat the decision has to be made what is the minimum amount of comfort that is acceptable when at rest, and while underway. While at rest, my personal minimum standards are pretty basic, while my desired standards are to just have a boat that fits my person without feeling compressed (too small bunks, heads, and headroom). Underway I just assume I'm going to be uncomfortable and will welcome the days when things are pleasant as a bonus. So long as seasickness isn't a long term problem (I've rarely gotten seasick, and never on a sailboat under 35'...the quicker motion must agree with me), and the motion doesn't reach the point of being unreasonably dangerous, I'm more or less happy.

However, a great many people WANT the bigger size and have no interest in being in a boat little bigger than a bathroom. So be it. If they enjoy their 50 footer, even if it never leaves the dock, then good for them.

Sadly, of course, a great many people DO buy into the hype and overbuy. Houses, cars, boats, vacations...I see well off unhappy people doing whatever they can to buy happiness which is sad and usually unsuccessful. What is sadder is when folks who AREN'T well off buy into the bigger is better and spend so much that they actually make their lives more stressful and less happy.

There's room out there for all of us.

[Oldrig]

There's room out there for all of us.

Adam,

Those eight words pretty much sum it up for me. Nice phrasing.

For those who want to cross oceans, there are a number of good arguments for bigger boats than those in the 18- to 28-foot range, based on the speed-to-waterline factor and the wavelengths of ocean waves. But I would think that most of who frequent this board would agree that if you get too big, too expensive and too gadget-ridden, you lose touch with the elements of the ocean, the feelings of closeness to nature and the feelings of freedom that make KISS boating so appealing.

Still, I think I'd rather cross the Atlantic, for example, in a boat slightly larger than the full-keel, (relatively) heavy-displacement 25-footer that I own and love, even though I'm sure the boat could make it--though I'm not always sure that I could.

I don't think there should be any hard-and-fast limit on LOA for membership in "SailFar," but I suspect that those who enjoy the larger boats would not be interested in frequenting this board. More power to them, I guess.

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

Sadly, of course, a great many people DO buy into the hype and overbuy. Houses, cars, boats, vacations...I see well off unhappy people doing whatever they can to buy happiness which is sad and usually unsuccessful. What is sadder is when folks who AREN'T well off buy into the bigger is better and spend so much that they actually make their lives more stressful and less happy.

This is the point I've been trying to get to.,,you've said it better than I have.

[CharlieJ]

Spent an afternoon last year with James Baldwin, and of course we talked boats. We both agreed that a boat around the size of  a Triton, was  just about perfect for one, slightly cramped for two. I've owned a 35 footer, and sailed aboard quite a few big boats , including crewing on a 50 foot on deck schooner.

Bigger boats, over say 30-32 feet, start having more drawbacks (for ME) than they are worth. Aboard Tehani, Laura and I both, or either one, can get the anchors up, with no winches. Hoist sails, with no winches. Kedge ourselves off a grounding, with no outside help. The 38 footer I just did the delivery on had a 44 pound Bruce anchor and 3/8 inch chain! A real bear to break out and hoist, especially all loaded with mud! Our 22 pounder can be done by hand.

Now understand also- length isn't the real total criteria here- DISPLACEMENT is very important in an ocean going boat. Coastal it isn't so important.

Also there's the size of crew- not number- physical size. I've had a 250 pound, 6'4" man aboard Tehani and she gets real small, REAL fast ;D  As to Lin and Larry-they are both smalll people so smaller boats work for them. I'm not a large person, and Laura is tiny,  so we needed less room. Makes a HUGE difference.

[Chattcatdaddy]

Also there's the size of crew- not number- physical size. I've had a 250 pound, 6'4" man aboard Tehani and she gets real small, REAL fast ;D  As to Lin and Larry-they are both smalll people so smaller boats work for them. I'm not a large person, and Laura is tiny,  so we needed less room. Makes a HUGE difference.

I`m 5`8" ...makes life a litlle easier on a smaller boat.

I`ve always choose smaller boats for ease of handling/lower maintenance cost/ etc...and also as strange as it may seem for the slight discomfort. ???

Thru the years I have learned that if I get too comfortable I become lazy. If I`m at that perfect compromise of comfort/discomfort then I`m more active. Dont get me wrong I like a comfy place to sit and sleep, but do not like too many luxuries.  I once slept on an air mattress and owned one chair in my apartment for over a year(on purpose not poor) and was in the best shape in my life.  Granted that this is not great for the social life, but I still did ok ;D

[CharlieJ]

Sadly, of course, a great many people DO buy into the hype and overbuy. Houses, cars, boats, vacations...I see well off unhappy people doing whatever they can to buy happiness which is sad and usually unsuccessful. What is sadder is when folks who AREN'T well off buy into the bigger is better and spend so much that they actually make their lives more stressful and less happy.

This is the point I've been trying to get to.,,you've said it better than I have.

I was recently given 12 years worth of Good Old boat magazine, and just this morning, was reading an article by Dave Martin, decrying this exact thing. The hype and drum beating that " you NEED a 45 footer to safely cruise"

Article was from 2008!

[Oldrig]

I`m 5`8" ...makes life a litlle easier on a smaller boat.

I`ve always choose smaller boats for ease of handling/lower maintenance cost/ etc...and also as strange as it may seem for the slight discomfort.

Keith,

You've got the perfect boat! I'm 5'6", and my 25D is just right; your Ariel is essentially the same Alberg-designed beauty.

Enjoy yourself--you deserve it!

--Joe

[Jim_ME]

In the discussions with Porter about his search for possible boats, and (I got the impression) that he wanted to be conservative about size and cost, and was interested in trailer-ability, it seemed like the line between small and big, economical and more expensive, was more sharply drawn than the question in general. And after posting a reply to him, my concern that I may not have fully conveyed the substantial difference between the boats we were discussing in the 25-foot range and the Cape Dory 27, especially if the plan is to trailer (and possibly launch/haul/rig) the boat on ones own.

Also, part of that discussion was making recommendations to someone that is getting into sailing, and sharing the experience of getting a boat that was too large and expensive for my (our) needs at the time--and that once you have been sailing for years or decades, it is easier to make that judgement and to balance cost and size with experience.  

I have met a new potential sailing pal and she asked to see one of the boats and so I showed her the Centaur on its trailer.

The next day I received an email from her. She was excited to go sailing and declared That was fun climbing up onto the Centaur...What a huge sailboat!

Oh well...   ;D

[Porter Wayfare]

Greetings, Jim_ME in particular,

Your answer was one part of the understanding I have come to about what kind of a boat we're after. You and others here have been very helpful.

Although the CD27 we saw was a real charmer, it is pretty clear standing next to it that it is on the "too big" side. We saw a CD26 at the same time that was by comparison just maybe "not too big."

Putting a lot of emphasis on standing headroom moves things to the 24' LOA range and up, which puts a real strain on the trailerability aspect. We want to move around in the boat--and we want to move the boat around too!

So maybe you can tell when small begins to happen because of what you have to give up. If you have to give up something an unarguably big boat allows, then you have a small boat. It works in the other direction too.

I am holding out for an Alberg 22, just as soon as I get my wife into one and she gives me the OK. But I did see a picture of a Rhodes Meridian on a single axle trailer being pulled by an Oldsmobile. It looked easy. So I'm telling myself  that or an Ariel is my fallback (or fall-up?) position.

Porter

[Jim_ME]

Thanks, Porter, Glad to be able to help.

The CD 27 is a beautiful boat (as Joe said, and perhaps others). If my goal was to go larger and yet be able to trailer locally to a yard and have them lift it off my trailer, launch, step the mast and then haul with travel lift, unstep the mast, and then trailer home myself--I would definitely be on my short list. (Also a Bristol 27)

I just saw a boat that may be worth considering, but I will post on your boat search thread...

[tomwatt]

I'm on the bigger side... 5'11" tall, just over 220 lbs. built more like a football linebacker than anything else (unless it's the caber-toss guy from the highland games). As a result, I need a bit of space, and so many boats in the smaller size range present real problems for me below decks. Bristol 27s presented less space than I was comfortable with, for instance. The cramped forepeak meant that I could never even get into the vee-berth at all, while the Bristol 24s had enough space to accomplish that task.
For me, the 28 to 32 LOA represents enough space to turn around, get comfortable in. On the other hand, so many of the more "modern" models seem to have been designed so that someone could roller skate around in the main salon!
There are a wealth of workable older boats out there though. It seems like a good time to buy one (ahem, Porter).