What is considered "small" here? What is considered "big"?

[Seafarer]

This is my second time poking around the SailFar forums. The first time I didn't think that I'd fit in- my boat is too big and complex for this crowd!

But as I've been looking for something smaller and simpler to sail around while working on the big boat, I thought maybe we'd have something in common after all. What is considered small, medium, and large around here?

0-20, 20-30, 30+ ?

[Oldrig]

SeaFarer,

Don't be shy. SailFar is as much a state of mind as a specific boat length.

Your knowledge, experience and questions are always welcome.

Climb aboard, Mate, and enjoy a grog!

--Joe

[JWalker]

I think sometimes here we forget that we are really about simple boats. What is big/small is a personal choice.

For instance Lin and Larry Pardey are small boat advocates, but Taliesin has a cruising displacement of 18000.

Thats similar to many 40 foot cruiser/racers that are more common, and only slightly less than a westsail 32 which is a huge boat for its size. The Farr 45 displaces 15763 lbs, So even though its a larger boat, its still a smaller boat.

The difference here is that it is a far more complex boat.

When it comes to cruising we need enough displacement to be able to safely carry our stores/water/ect, and the simplicity to be able to fix everything whenever and wherever it happens to fail.

Simple systems are they key.

If you have any doubt, compare the two young ladies that recently headed around the world....

Jessica, got rolled and her wind vane got bent....and sailed onto the finish.

Abbey had to quit her bid for solo after her backup auto pilot gave out and headed into south africa for repairs.

Welcome to the forum!   ;D

[Porter Wayfare]

The size question has been on my mind a lot lately. If you're interested, look for my previous posts in the general discussion. So far I've only been considering keelboats.

I've been actively looking at boats and I feel that it's the depth of the keel that takes the boat out of the trailerable range. To deal with weight you can add another axle, but what are you going to do about the keel, mount a crane?

Of course, LOA and displacement and draw have a proportionate relationship, so they go up together, but I find the height of the boat on a trailer to be the most intimidating.

So the short answer, I guess, for me, is less than 4 feet draft. Even that puts the boat way up in the air. Somehow it has to get in the water!

Porter

[gpdno]

As a kid, I taught myself how to sail on a lake in a little styrofoam Snark clone.  Now that I'm all grown-up my 27' Watkins seems big enough.  And I can't imaging how I would single-hand my dock mates 39' cutter, jut too big.  My boat is just right  ;D  Simple systems with not much that can break and when it does, its easy enough for me to figure out how to fix it myself. 

[CharlieJ]

It's not so much the size, per se, as it is the complexity. I used to own a Cross 35 trimaran, ketch rig, and I had no difficulties single handing it, ONCE AWAY from the dock. Actually,, leaving a dock wasn't bad- coming back in, in any kind of wind and or current could be hairy. Anchoring and un-anchoring wasn't bad.

In Feb last year, Laura and I did a delivery on a Tartan 41 to Mexico. In Sept she double handed that boat back from the Rio Dulce, to Rockport, Texas. I haven't a doubt in my mind that she ( at 5'2) couldn't single hand that boat. I don't know if she could do it in storm conditions, but other very small ladies have done so in far larger boats-witness Dame Ellen McArthur (5'3) sailing , nay, RACING around the world in her open 60. But they don't anchor.

But sure wouldn't want that Tartan- Has all the bells and whistles. too much complexity -My trimaran was a basic boat-no external A/C power, no "systems", just plain vanilla stuff.

And I had two more paragraphs that just "went away" somehow. >:( >:(

So let me wind up by saying- bigger is more comfortable, but harder to deal with around hard stuff. For me, that break comes at about 30-32 feet. And as I said earlier in some thread ( I lose track of where), given a tad more beam, my Tehani is about perfectas a shorter term cruiser. She is NOT large enough for two to LIVE aboard, full time. Takes a heavier displacement boat for that. Which is where Taliesen comes in, with her 18000 pound disp. Also bear in mind- Lin is 4'10 and Larry is just over 5 feet tall  THAT makes a difference also, believe me.

[JWalker]

When I refered to Jessica and Abbey,

Abbey I ment so say solo NONSTOP around the world.....which is when she diverted to south africa. This was caused by her backup auto pilot going out. Thus ending her bid for nonstop.

Jessica Was actually only knocked down, however violently enough to bend equipment, however not a full 360 degree roll.

My Apologies for not reading my own posts carefully!  ;D

[marujo_sortudo]

I like to think a very large boat could be a sailfarer's boat if only it had enough folks on it.  I seem to remember a guideline I read somewhere of about 7000#/person.  Simple systems, of course.  I've run across some boats like this out there, but I don't know if any of them are on this forum.

[Captain Smollett]

I like to think a very large boat could be a sailfarer's boat if only it had enough folks on it.

Hmmm....that's not MY definition of sailfar boat.  YMMV.

Too big and too many folks does not equal "simple" in my mind.  More people mean more opinions, and if the boat is big enough, requires more "cooperation;" discord among the crew can be a problem.

If only one (or a small number) of the crew has real sailing competence, a big boat can be a detriment  to the remaining crew if one of the knowledgeable  ones gets injured. 

  I seem to remember a guideline I read somewhere of about 7000#/person. 

Wow, that's a lot of boat!   ;)

I'd say 7000 lb per person is easily at least double what many of us here on sailfar consider "small, safe and comfortable."

2000-3000 lb per person seems more line with where many of us seem to lie, but also with an upper limit on actual (not per person normalized) size.

You get high normalized numbers for single handers on boats 24-30 feet, but the thing is that adding a second crew member on boats that size has little "cost."  Lots of families of 4-5 actively cruise on 25-30 footers.

The sailfar "limit" is grey and fuzzy somewhere roughly around the 30 foot line...some 32 footers are certainly sailfar boats, other 28's are not.  But, I think we'd be hard pressed to find very many 45 footers that are no matter how simple or how many people are aboard, though there may be a few as exceptions.

[CharlieJ]

Tehani- 5300 lbs dry disp, 7500 loaded for crusing (guesstimate).

Two aboard for two years quite comfortably.

My 35 foot Cross trimaran was a simple boat. No "systems". No a/c power, no refrigeration (ice chest) no tv no nothing but basics- 3 livedaboard two years quite nicely.

The 41 footer I was aboard fordelivery last year was NOT simple.

The 38 footer I'm aboard now isn't either.

One thing to add into the mix- the physical size of the people-what might be a comfortable boat for 5'8", 165 pounds might not be for 6'4", 220 pounds.

[Jim_ME]

I remember reading that Arther Beiser in his book The Proper Yacht stated that the minimum size yacht for a couple to do extended cruising on was 15,000 pounds displacement [in that same 7,000-lb/person]. I noticed that he and his wife often cruised on their 52 [58]-foot 64,000 pound ketch (setup with special equipment so that could handle it). I suspect that is getting on the big side...  :)

One of the cruising blogs that I had followed was of a couple with a 37-foot vintage sailboat. Another couple that I followed cruised on a 35-foot center cockpit/aft cabin. As I followed their adventures and looked at there photos aboard the boat, it seemed like they had plenty of space. Both couples are now considering larger boats. I do not know how much larger... 40 feet? 45 feet?

When I was giving my free advice to Porter about starting off on the small side, Cruise wrote about how when you get too large a boat, one way that it can become a problem is the loss of self sufficiency of a boat that size, and the need to be dependent on finding crew to be able to go sailing.

For me, it took this form... At some point sitting around the Kitchen table, we realized that there was nothing that we had been doing (or planned to do in the foreseeable future) with the 30-foot, 9,000-lb sailboat that we could not have done on a sailboat about half that size [by displacement] and enjoyed just as much.

I had found a great deal on the 30-footer, but I had not fully appreciated the difference between initial cost with ultimate ongoing costs--to haul, launch, rig, maintain, insure, equip, etc. When one has a limited budget, and you get into a position where you can only marginally afford the boat (for instance, the economy slows), than it does not take much to push the boat from something that is comfortably affordable over into something that is a real burden that you must sacrifice other things in your budget to continue to do. If you are not moving aboard and cruising full time, you still have other major expenses and obligations competing for your time--a mortgage, house to maintain, vehicles, other activities, traveling to visit friends and family, etc.

In fact, after trading down to a 25-foot, 5,000-pound (typical Sailfar-sized) cruising boat, we also got the Cape Dory Typhoon 19 to use in the near future while restoring the 25-foot boat. We ended up enjoying the Typhoon as much as we ever did the 30-footer. A lot of the sailing we enjoyed on both boats was the daysailing and overnighting. Some of the sailing was daysailing with my Sea Dog and the Typhoon was ideal for that. It was a major factor that the Typhoon and trailer could be purchased outright for what the 30-footer cost to operate and store--and we became totally self-sufficient, and that turned out to be priceless.  

If we had done more ambitious cruising, then the Typhoon would of course have been too small. Still, even if expanding into some coastal cruising, it seemed like the 25-footer would be adequate, and it could be setup on a trailer to retain much of that self-sufficiency that the Typhoon 19 and trailer provided.

I now have the Centaur and Snapdragon projects that I hope to eventually grow back into--at the moment--in this economy--they, too are too big and expensive to use, even if they were ready. I hope that a 26-foot, 6700-pound boat does not prove to be too large for me. Like the other (economic) factors, it is uncertain. A Centaur seems about as large a boat as I would want to try to trailer and to step the 31-foot mast on my own, even with its Tabernacle base.

I wrote in my advice to Porter that one could tow a boat this size (a bit smaller than the CD27 that he was considering) with a good trailer and a 3/4-ton pickup. Since I wrote that, I have been thinking about it, and there is quite a difference between towing a boat and trailer of this size and one with a 25-footer. Even though it is possible, I cannot imagine towing a Centaur or CD27 a long distance. when something is that large, the amount of hyper vigilance needed is stressful and tiring. I think that I would find myself in the same situation--that there was nothing that I would do on a Centaur or CD27 that I could not do with a CD25, CD25D, Ariel or similarly sized boat. Towing a Centaur or CD27 locally, from my house yard to a ramp or boatyard to be lifted off and launched, seems comfortably doable, but not long distance trailering.

Granted, for those living aboard or doing or planning long-distance cruising, a 30-foot (or 32-foot, or 35-foot) sailboat can be just right, and probably would be for me, too--if my situation was such that I could afford it. When I read the blogs of those that were moving up from the 35- or 37-foot boats to something considerably larger, I did have some concern that they may find that they lose more than they gain. Yet it is true as others have said, that it is a personal choice, and it may well work out for them.

So I guess that one way that I define too big is when you find that you are not having fun anymore.

I heard a quote the other day that I liked...[that resonated with my own experience about the cost factor...]

We spend money that we do not have
On things we do not want
To impress people we do not like.  

[Captain Smollett]

a problem is the loss of self sufficiency of a boat that size

nothing that we had been doing (or planned to do in the foreseeable future) with the 30-foot, 9,000-lb sailboat that we could not have done on a sailboat about half that size and enjoyed just as much.

it does not take much to push the boat from something that is comfortably affordable over into something that is a real burden that you must sacrifice other things in your budget to continue to do.


We ended up enjoying the Typhoon as much as we ever did the 30-footer.

we became totally self-sufficient, and that turned out to be priceless.  


Even though it is possible, I cannot imagine towing a Centaur or CD27 a long distance. when something is that large, the amount of hyper vigilance needed is stressful and tiring.

those that were moving up from the 35- or 37-foot boats to something considerably larger, I did have some concern that they may find that they lose more than they gain.

So I guess that one way that I define too big is when you find that you are not having fun anymore.

I heard a quote the other day that I liked...[that resonated with my own experience about the cost factor...]

We spend money that we do not have
On things we do not want
To impress people we do not like.  

All very well said, Jim.  Thanks and grog for that post.

Common, oft repeated themes here at sailfar...

[marujo_sortudo]

Seems like there's a lot of YMMV.  I don't feel the need to constrain it really.  A boat is simple if you can spend lots of time cruising and a moderate amount of time doing most of the maintenance yourself.  Ideally, I would think it should be easy to handle short-handed.  I think of the Pardey's a true sailfarer's and they certainly had bigger boats (esp. displacement wise) than many on here.  It is worth noting that the boat I would choose for coast-wise cruising would be lighter than a boat I would choose for passagemaking. 

My boat will be more complicated than I would like, as I will need to worry about charging laptops, boosting wifi, etc. so I can take my work with me when I go.  That said, it allows to be go (indefinitely) at a young age and while providing an income not only to myself, but a couple of employees stateside.  That's the compromise for me.  With paper charts, a couple of outdated GPSes, a hand-bearing compass, and a plastic sextant, I don't plan on setting records for complexity.  I ended up with a 32' 16,000# (fully loaded) displacement boat even though I had be searching for something closer to 28' and even lusted after a little 25-footer.

If my situation changed tomorrow, I would go in *any* boat I enjoyed and could safely and reasonably pilot and maintain for the areas I hoped to cruise.  I would shoot below my budget and keep a rainy day fund of some kind if I could be so lucky and thereby hope to whether whatever economic storms befell me.  I can imagine a large variety of boats that might fit that bill; although, for me, most would probably be in the 25'-35' range and preferably on the lower side.  Heck, I wouldn't mind setting out in a little Calcedonia Yawl with a tent and some camping supplies....

http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/caledonia.html

PS 40'+ boat have always seems like excess to me for couples or less, but being down here in the Caribbean for the first time, I'm shocked by the size and quantity of megayachts down here.  Many of them have tenders larger than sail far boats!!!  I never really imagined, for example, sail boats with six spreaders on a single mast!

PPS  I certainly acknowledge the challenges of finding an agreeable and competent crew on a larger vessel, but I like to believe it is possible.  I don't imagine it'll ever be common.  Dealing with finances and maintenance schedules, alone, would be a great challenge for many.  Still, if anyone out there was crazy enough to pull it off, I'd like to meet them in some anchorage, somewhere.

[Captain Smollett]

Seems like there's a lot of YMMV.  I don't feel the need to constrain it really. 

There's no constraint on anyone defining this stuff as they will or owning (and outfitting) a boat as they see fit.  Part of the sailfar spirit, as it's been defined over the years, is individual freedom as it pertains to "your boat, your choice."  That's why we (or at least I) use phrases like YMMV when discussing things that are to a degree "opinion."

But that said, sailfar.net...THIS discussion group...has not only a "KISS boat" but also a "small boat" focus.  The thread title is "What is considered small HERE," not meta-definitions of small in terms of displacement per person that don't impact things like draft, slip fees, loads on hardware, etc.

And though it keeps getting brought up, for my part, I don't consider a boat "big" by displacement; 'small boat' as I've always taken it means smaller LOA.  Most of our discussions of 'the advantages of small' include things like cheaper slip rental, cheaper haul-outs, less paint, smaller loads on hardware, etc, etc...all that pertain to the physical size of the hull, not her weight per se.

But, by any standard generally adopted in the popular discussion of "world cruiser" or "blue water yacht," that is by comparison of what the 'conventional wisdom has to say about what's is "required," I'd say both Serrafyn and Taleisin qualify as "small" no matter what they displace....small AND KISS.

{The above opinions are those of the poster and do not represent official SailFar corporate policy.   ;D }

[tomwatt]

{The above opinions are those of the poster and do not represent official SailFar corporate policy.   ;D }

We gots a corporation? ... and a policy? now?
;D

You know, one of the best things (for me anyways) about SailFar (aside from the great folks on here) is the good reinforcement against "needing" a 45' yacht with a ton of electronics & fancy stuff in order to go out into the water. There's an awful lot of "pressure" out there in articles, sales people, marina people, advertising, etc. etc. trying to upsize and fancify the heck out of everything.

[Captain Smollett]

There's an awful lot of "pressure" out there in articles, sales people, marina people, advertising, etc. etc. trying to upsize and fancify the heck out of everything.

You know, this may seem off topic a bit, but in my warped sense, it does seem related.

The other night, I attended an organizational meeting for the local Youth Sailing Club (only in its second year).  Last year, the club did very well, but over the winter, there was talk of upsizing and fancifying it.

Um.  Well...it went like this.

Club was set up to be a "community" club with fees low enough to be affordable to just about anyone (and some scholarships available to the rest).  These fees were 25% or less of the next closest similar club.  The group had boats and access to facilities to accommodate about 20 young sailors.

The gist of the argument was "well, we filled it, so our "product" is in demand, and the other clubs charge much more, so we should, too."  I balked at this idea - rather strongly.

In the end, the club leadership decided they'd rather keep the community focus and so long as fees meet expenses, no need to raise the rates.  Cool, right?

Well, at the Friday night meeting, the question was again asked, "what are you doing to grow?"

I'm left wondering "why."  Why the concern with growing...just to grow, just to get bigger and more complicated.  When I mentioned a referenced to the old joke about the Mexican Fisherman and the American Businessman, at least one person laughed and nodded in understanding.

It's true with boats (and houses, I think)...for some reason, we seem programmed to want bigger, even if there is no need.  Forget for a moment the person that needs a bigger boat for whatever reason and just think of the people who want bigger for NO reason (or worse, they have a reason that's quite possibly untrue, like "I'll be more comfortable in rough weather").

It seems to always come back to this discussion on this site...someone says, "I have a small boat, but I really want a big one."  As soon as the opportunity arises to upsize, it's taken.  It seems that often the virtues of "small" are only sung while stuck with a small boat...often, not always.

Frank, for example, has bought numerous boats in the last few years, and all of them has been small! (if we total his LOA, though...oh, never mind).    ;D

Head-in-the-clouds-musing-mode-off....

[Tim]

We as a culture believe growth is necessary, sustainability is often not considered. It is a measure of success to most. 

[tomwatt]

It's all just an extension of hamburger marketing - would you like to supersize that?
For myself, the hope/plan/dream is to completely cut the cable at a point coming up in just a few years, so there won't be a house/car/mortgage/etc. to come back to.
Whether or not that remains a realistic goal only time will tell, but I'm working towards it.
I realize that the more systems onboard, the more potential breakage & repair issues involved, so I hope to maintain simplicity. And I already have the tent (with sand stakes available) for an occasional island overnight to not completely lose my land legs.
In the meantime, this place called SailFar remains a port of sanity amidst a sea of upsizing & fancifying everything.

[CharlieJ]

Want a cure for 'big boat itus'?

Spend a week or two on abig boat. Crank up those BIG anchors, and hoist those heavy sails!! Hey- just dig one of those Jibs out of the forepeak and mule it up onto the bow. THEN fold up the one you just took off (of course on the bow) and lug it below.

Oh- and be very careful wherr you sail and anchor cause you need MUCH more water for tha deeper keel.  Which means you are anchored much further away from the dinghy dock.

Having spent a good bit of time aboard a 38 and a 41 footer in the last year, I'll take the smaller boat in a heartbeat!!

Oh and of course don't forget the extra expenses- dockfees, haulouts etc ALL go way up with boat size.

[Tim]

Oh- and be very careful where you sail and anchor cause you need MUCH more water for the deeper keel

;D  ^^^^^^^