Getting/keeping a boat at the destination instead of sailing/trailering there

[Jim_ME]

Skagerrak (Jon) wrote: "it is a real treat to be able to sail Europe without the time and expense of a Transatlantic voyage. Amazing how inexpensive it can be when you start out on this side of the pond..."

This is something that I have thought about, too. My plan is to eventually find a place to keep a sailboat and trailer down South somewhere (hopefully at a friend's rural house), so that I don't have to sail or tow it down every winter. Perhaps I could trade storage of his/her boat in my yard up here so that neither of us has to pay to store the boat in a boatyard (especially in these difficult economic times.)

Also the idea of getting a boat at a destination area, such as in Europe, so that it isn't necessary to do a transatlantic, or invest in the equipment, level of readiness, maintenance, spares, etc. that such a voyage requires.

I'm not sure that I have a strong desire to do a transatlantic (or other long crossing) and the idea of just getting there fast (flying) and then starting the coastal cruising right away has a lot of appeal. So that would mean purchasing a boat there (say, a modest 25 footer), and then selling it at the end of a (long) cruise, or again finding a reasonable place to store it and come back to it?

I have also read about the Boatswap programs, but don't know anyone that has done that. Does anyone have any experience with that? For myself, it would always feel more comfortable being on one's own boat, than on someone else's boat.

[Captain Smollett]

Also the idea of getting a boat at a destination area, such as in Europe, so that it isn't necessary to do a transatlantic, or invest in the equipment, level of readiness, maintenance, spares, etc. that such a voyage requires.

I'm not sure that I have a strong desire to do a transatlantic (or other long crossing) and the idea of just getting there fast (flying) and then starting the coastal cruising right away has a lot of appeal.

An interesting approach a lot of people take.  I can see a lot of merit in it...*IF* the journey to 'get there' is not part of one's individual pursuit.

I have a problem, though.  For whatever reason, I completely dislike the notion of cruising on someone else's boat (chartering) when I own a perfectly good boat, and I almost dislike the idea of traveling by another means just as much.  It's this weird affliction I have where I just want to sail EVERYWHERE!   ;D

The idea of buying a boat locally and cruising it is a bit daunting to me, as well.  Finding The Right Boat(tm) seems to be a major task, if all these "looking for a boat" threads is any indication.  I have lucked into all three of the sailboats I presently own, but I doubt I could count on that particular luck to purchase a boat overseas.

I'd guess at least one full vacation cycle would be spent just finding The Right Boat(tm) for subsequent years.

Now, loading the Alberg onto a ship...another alternative.  Get *MY* boat, the one I'm already used to (and presumably have set-up the way I want it....I'm still working on that) to my desired cruising grounds...hmmm.  Kind-of "trailerable" on a larger scale...

[Jim_ME]

I had in the past often thought about having a boat that was capable of of a crossing. More recently, I have been wondering whether it is realistic for me, whether it is time to lower my expectations. I had not even been thinking about it so much, but was reminded of it by Jon`s (Skagerrak`s) post. [I spilled tea on my keyboard yesterday and my apostrophe/quotes key stopped working, so I`m substituting this accent character instead]

At the moment, I`m eager to just get back to sailing at all, and then to local coastal sailing. From there, I have a deeper interest in getting down to Chesapeake Bay and your area, John--those sounds, bays, rivers, and towns with character.

It may be a long time, if ever, before I am in a position to even consider Europe, but Jon`s post about what he has done did stoke the dream. Jon, have you considered doing a thread (or separate blog) about (recounting) your cruises in Europe (hopefully with lots of photos)? I believe that many would find it quite interesting.

[David_Old_Jersey]

I don't think that buying a boat in Europe is unreasonable - indeed I think it is a great idea! (it is something that I am also thinking about myself -  albeit not in Europe, am already here! - with a boat!).

Obviously not without its challenges, but IMO doing so on a smaller boat has advantages when coupled with a KISS approach (not the same as a Hairshirt approach!).

Possibly fly over (and back) with the basic kit, so can buy something that is simply bare bones equipped (cheaper) and can be left with little (or nothing) worth stealing when left unattended.

Buying within Europe means the boat can stay as long you want - even if Owner / Skipper is restricted in time by Visa requirements.

Long term (and cheap!) storage would be one of the keys, but with smaller that can more easily involve a trailer rather than a year around marina berth ($$$) and (in general) the further inshore one goes the cheaper (and more) the options become - including simply getting "Moored" in the corner of a farmer's field!........in practice that will likely involve more boots on the ground than simply internet, but IMO that all part of the adventure! (and reason to up the foreign lingo a tad).

FWIW if I was looking to "do" Europe for an extended period on a strict budget would look to go up the French Canals - not only removes the need to be transocean capable but also drops the seaworthiness capability down to basics. Could even do so with something that has no mast!!! and for that there be a sailing Dink.

In my book sailing around the world does not have to involve sailing RTW, with the long passages that involves. A year / season or 2 (or more) within 100 miles of a new locale can provide just as much fun as travelling thousands of miles - and has certain advantages by being able to learn way around and getting to know folk - including locals! (including on the cost) rather than simply constantly passing through places.

[Captain Smollett]

This is the reason I bristle at the marketeers lumping everyone into a "cruisers" category.  Not everyone wants the same things from a boat and there are as many "styles" and "goals" of cruising as there are cruisers.

My only point in mentioning

"The idea of buying a boat locally and cruising it is a bit daunting to me, as well.  Finding The Right Boat(tm) seems to be a major task,.. "

was not that it is especially difficult to purchase in Europe, but that it does add the extra step of a "buying trip."  That's certainly no more of a time investment than sailing across, but, one may not find the right boat in the first trip.  That can be part of the adventure, I suppose.

[SeaHusky]

These Swedish students had a year of for sailing and didn't fancy spending too much time oceancrossing so they put their midgetcruiser in a 40' conex container and sent it to the west indies and then sailed it back to Europe.
http://soprano.bloggsida.se/2008/12 Scroll down for pics.
That could be an option to sail your own boat where you want.

[David_Old_Jersey]

was not that it is especially difficult to purchase in Europe, but that it does add the extra step of a "buying trip."  That's certainly no more of a time investment than sailing across, but, one may not find the right boat in the first trip.  That can be part of the adventure, I suppose.

I think the key would be a lot of pre-planning, including a Plan B and Plan C - maybe even make a few contacts online (IME folks are very helpful). Probably also knowing what to look for in a boat without having to rely on others and being very flexible on the boat model / design - and accepting less than perfect (within reason!). Would also be useful to have some road transport, at least for the buying end of the trip......rental might be more expensive than buying - borrowing would be ideal! Accomadation in Europe can be very expensive, so the shorter the time the better before moving onboard - or take / buy a tent!

In practice I would be looking for something with a small draft from a drop keel or bilge keels - both for cheaper / free moorings in places that larger boats cannot access, ability to go up the canals and easier to stick on a trailer and either take accross Europe (as a Caravan! or to new cruising grounds). I would also favour something either with an outboard or could take an outboard (if engine went pop). Something that was able to sail well woukd also be useful notwithstanding that would likely be largely coastal cruising (a port within a day's sail)......I would not buy something with a Trailor unless had already lined up somewhere (cheap / free) to keep it, although very useful if you can do that - would rely on either hiring something (whether a trailor or a flat bedtruck) or preferably borrowing something for free (or for beer!) when you need it.....boat doesn't have to stay on the trailor during the offseason - indeed for anti theft reasons an advanatge to not being on a trailer!

[Oldrig]

These Swedish students had a year of for sailing and didn't fancy spending too much time oceancrossing so they put their midgetcruiser in a 40' conex container and sent it to the west indies and then sailed it back to Europe.
That could be an option to sail your own boat where you want.

Container Yachts in Newport, RI, makes a 40-footer that's specifically designed to fit into a shipping container.

http://www.containeryachts.com/

I got to climb aboard, but not sail, one at the Newport Boat Show several years ago. I'm not sure that this qualifies as a SailFar boat, although it is pretty spartan when compared with other boats in its price range.

--Joe

[JWalker]

Morgan and I have talked about this very idea.

I think it would be * relatively* easy to pack up a small box of essential cruising gear, fly over to another location, and find the *right* boat.

Actually I think it would be way easier than staying home and finding the *right* boat.

Why? Simple.

If I am looking for the right boat to cover all the wants wishes and may haves for each and every cruising ground that I may want to go....thats a tall order. I'm still looking for a 35 foot or less boat with less than 5 feet of draft, mast tabernacle,  Two private stateooms for having guests, nice galley and a full workshop?   ???  Oh yeah....I want it to sail really well and be seaworthy for world cruising.

However, if I am planning on a year cruise already in the destination I wish to go....there are alot more boats that I could use for a year in any given place, and then sell and recoup at least some of my initial investment from without having to worry about some of the "maybe someday" things I want in a long term boat.

For instance, if we were to go to the med to cruise for a year, I'd look at folk boats, westerly centaurs, heavenly twins and catalacs just to name a few....but those are boats I would not consider for us long term.

This opens up distant cruising grounds that you may or may not want to take the time to get to.

OTOH

I knew of a guy in AZ with a flicka who kept it in Mexico, on the sea of cortez...it was a 5 hour drive from him and stored on the trailer it cost him $57/mo He just called them up when he wanted to go sailing for a long weekend and they would put the flicka in for him. He said it took 7 hours towing, and alot more gas.

But then there are LOTS of sailboats in florida with out of state owners who havent touched them in years.

I will say based on our experience this winter, if we had finished the restoration on the trailerable, we would have cruised the keys for three months before the problem with the renters came to a head, which IS WHERE WE WANTED to be cruising, instead of day-voyaging 1500 miles down the river and around the gulf only to be four days away from the keys when we were forced to stop.

Don't get me wrong, we enjoyed the trip allot. however there are certain places I want to go see and experience before I settle down and decide I want to see whats in each and every port.

Cruising is different for each person, we have to decide what works for us.

[Jim_ME]

John, That was always part of my dream, too--to sail over and back, but am considering a Plan B that might be less daunting in terms of cost and time needed. I have some misgivings about chartering, too. Cruising on one`s own boat can be an important part of the experience--and makes the boat feel more like home.  

David, I have had an interest in the canals of France. Some time ago, I discovered this blog about a guy who cruised through them on his Alacrity twin-keel sailboat. I was inspired to see how much of an adventure he had with this 19-foot 1,500-lb boat. I have seen a few for sale here in the US for sale quite reasonably, often already setup on a trailer. It seems like one could be fitted with a cockpit tent (such as Tim made for his Typhoon) to gain some additional space out of the weather. Again, if you start there, you can get by with a much smaller (less costly) boat than one would need to do a Transatlantic and back.

Joe & SeaHusky, The container option sounds interesting. I am wondering if a person could pack/piggyback 4 Alacrity 19s into a 40-foot shipping container. That might make the shipping option affordable for a group?  :D  

JW, Awhile back I had begun to think along your lines, and work toward having a modest-sized cruising trailer-sailer to tow South and spend the time I have available enjoying that area, rather than on the cruise there and back (which I might also enjoy when I had enough time). Especially if it is a trip during winter, it would get one to the warm region fast (as you also wrote).

[David_Old_Jersey]

David, I have had an interest in the canals of France. Some time ago, I discovered this blog about a guy who cruised through them on his Alacrity twin-keel sailboat. I was inspired to see how much of an adventure he had with this 19-foot 1,500-lb boat. I have seen a few for sale here in the US for sale quite reasonably, often already setup on a trailer. It seems like one could be fitted with a cockpit tent (such as Tim made for his Typhoon) to gain some additional space out of the weather. Again, if you start there, you can get by with a much smaller (less costly) boat than one would need to do a Transatlantic and back.

Cheers for those Links.

FWIW as a kid we used to spend a lot of time up the French Canals, albeit only Northern France (Jersey is only 15 miles away from France). But me Father (and Brother) did manage to get to Paris one year by boat.

Can certainly recommend it (and I have half plans to do similar again ? I have a lot of half plans at the moment!).

I agree that having a cockpit tent would be good idea (on an Alacrity sized boat would double the ?living? area ? and it doesn?t have to be gale proof nor picture perfect, so perfectly DIYable, even if a PITA (wrestling jelly!)??but far worse ways to spend a few days than sitting on canal bank fiddling around with boat stuff!

And of course just because are on a boat, doesn?t mean have to live aboard 24/7?..mix life up with a few B & B?s and / or even a canal side tent!

Although I don?t actually know, I suspect that shipping anything of that size over from US to Europe would be far more expensive than buying locally.

Not terribly familiar with the small boat end of the European boat market ? to get a handle on UK cheap / small boat prices (and models) have a look on Ebay.co.uk.

Also these guys (have never dealt with) seem like worth a look.

d to spend a lot of time up the French Canals, albeit only Northern France (Jersey is only 15 miles away from France). But me Father (and Brother) did manage to get to Paris one year by boat.

Can certainly recommend it (and I have half plans to do similar again ? I have a lot of half plans at the moment!).

I agree that having a cockpit tent would be good idea (on an Alacrity sized boat would double the ?living? area ? and it doesn?t have to be gale proof nor picture perfect, so perfectly DIYable, even if a PITA (wrestling jelly!)??but far worse ways to spend a few days than sitting on canal bank fiddling around with boat stuff!

And of course just because are on a boat, doesn?t mean have to live aboard 24/7?..mix life up with a few B & B?s and / or even a canal side tent!

Although I don?t actually know, I suspect that shipping anything of that size over from US to Europe would be far more expensive than buying locally.

Not terribly familiar with the small boat end of the European boat market ? to get a handle on UK cheap / small boat prices (and models) have a look on Ebay.co.uk.

Also these guys (have never dealt with) seem like worth a look.

http://www.andyseedhouse.co.uk/sales/boatlist2008.php?cat=1]Cheers for those Links.

FWIW as a kid we used to spend a lot of time up the French Canals, albeit only Northern France (Jersey is only 15 miles away from France). But me Father (and Brother) did manage to get to Paris one year by boat.

Can certainly recommend it (and I have half plans to do similar again ? I have a lot of half plans at the moment!).

I agree that having a cockpit tent would be good idea (on an Alacrity sized boat would double the ?living? area ? and it doesn?t have to be gale proof nor picture perfect, so perfectly DIYable, even if a PITA (wrestling jelly!)??but far worse ways to spend a few days than sitting on canal bank fiddling around with boat stuff!

And of course just because are on a boat, doesn?t mean have to live aboard 24/7?..mix life up with a few B & B?s and / or even a canal side tent!

Although I don?t actually know, I suspect that shipping anything of that size over from US to Europe would be far more expensive than buying locally.

Not terribly familiar with the small boat end of the European boat market ? to get a handle on UK cheap / small boat prices (and models) have a look on Ebay.co.uk.

Also these guys (have never dealt with) seem like worth a look.

http://www.andyseedhouse.co.uk/sales/boatlist2008.php?cat=1

[/url]


Arrrrgh!!! - I give up  >:(

[Jim_ME]

David, Glad that you enjoyed the links, and thank you for the ones you posted.

I wasn`t aware of the rules that treated boats bought locally [differently] compared to ones brought in from outside.

No doubt that it is true that buying a boat locally would be much less costly than shipping one over and back. If one buys locally and then resells the boat after doing the cruising weeks or years later, the investment should be recoverable (assuming it is in comparable condition).

Also, [as JW says] if the boat is smaller and more basic than a larger live-aboard voyaging boat, there would likely be fewer custom features aboard one`s own boat that would give it any advantage over the typical boat that could be bought. Perhaps when getting a basic small boat for limited use, it is easier to compromise and make accommodations than when making a major investment of a large boat that one plans to keep for the long term, customize and equip [to suit, maybe live aboard or cruise year round].

After a quick browse, I found this Hurley 20 which is similar to the Alacrity (a bit larger at 2300 lbs), for GBP 1,700 [$2690 US]. Probably cannot ship a boat very far for that.

At that size, most typical single-axle trailers could be setup to carry the boat, which could be towed by any pickup, providing a lot of flexibility for launching, hauling out, transporting, and storage. Again, to keep costs at a minimum, maybe it would even be possible to find a person over there to trade storage with. You store my boat/trailer in your yard over there, and I will store your`s in mine over here.  :)  
 

[David_Old_Jersey]

After a quick browse, I found this Hurley 20 which is similar to the Alacrity (a bit larger at 2300 lbs), for GBP 1,700 [$2690 US]. Probably cannot ship a boat very far for that.  

Hurley got a good name over here, and they built a lot of small boats (of varying sizes) so always plenty around ? at various prices (and in various conditions!).

The Hurley Owners Association worth a looksee:-

http://www.hurleyownersassociation.co.uk/pages/h22.htm   

If you wanted to go up a touch in size and budget, my pick would be the Hurley 22 ? apart from a bit more room, a few have gone Transat, albeit am sure that is as much about the Skipper as the boat.

Although this one has a Fin Keel they made plenty with B/k?s:-

http://search.boatshop24.co.uk/morepictures.asp?btsrefno=17486222


Note the inboard outboard installation ? prop cavitation should not be anymore of an issue than with an inboard?..On this size of boat and intended use I would favour an O/b simply as engine far less likely to be original (or been replaced 20 years and 5 owners ago!) and that a s/h Outboard is easier / cheaper to obtain and install than an inboard, if the engine goes terminal.


IMO buying a smaller boat has BIG advantages when it comes to using a boat abroad for an extended period / over many years ? when the idea is not to do so forever.

Mainly that most of the equipment / upgrades added to her (for your convenience) can be removed before sale (and brought home by Jumbo Jet / DHL) as small boats are not expected to be as fully equipped as a bigger boat due to mostly being used locally on an occasional basis?.plus that someone with a smaller boat is likely happy without an onboard Jacuzzi and a walk in fridge and enough Electronics to run the Starship Enterprise!

If I was looking to do the same into Europe, would probably look to buy in the UK ? mainly for the easy lingo, but also for the easy and cheap registration (essentially all you need to do is ?magic up? an address). In the UK a boat is not required to be registered, but foreigners get confused about that concept! So boats venturing to mainland Europe do need a UK Registration. But the Skipper does not need any licence (there isn?t one to obtain). And the boat has no mandatory equipment requirements. You could literally remove a bathtub from a house and immediately set sail for Australia with no bits of paper ? all quite legally. The only problem would be on the registration if you stop off anywhere else enroute. It?s an approach that works very well. And we have no Poop Police! The only downside to buying in the UK is will need a boat good enough to cross the English Channel ? the busiest shipping lanes in the world!?..but in practice not really a problem, can be done in 1 day (depending on where you start).

Whilst I remember, there are however requirements (licensing / equipment) for using the Inland Waterways (both in UK and in Europe) ? nothing insurmountable nor wildly costly. I only mention it now so not a surprise for anyone later (am sure the details are an easy Google).


I think you are on the right track about looking to trade for storage ? IMO does not have to be a same for same trade, could even happen upon someone happy enough to put the boat up for Beer or for some trips around the bay, with Beer. (or a spare room back at your ranch for a cheap trip to the USA, by Jumbo Jet?). Unfortunately I can?t offer that, as no land?..my advice is to get on the Internet!

[skylark]

I would like to spend some time on the canals and coastal areas in Europe.  I often check in on this classified site in my old home country:

http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/watersport-en-boten/kajuitzeilboten-en-zeiljachten/c985.html

Click on Prijs (price) and it will list the boats from low price to high.  I find that the asking prices tend to be quite high.  But there are some real gems in there too.  Since reading Roger Taylor's books, I like the bilge keel plastic boats around 20 feet.  Then there are the steel Domps which tend to be fairly cheap, although who knows when a rust pinhole will reclaim them to the sea.  The Waarschips are sporty and the cheapest way to get on the water in a coastal sailboat seems to be the plywood Kolibri's.  There are a few classic plastics out there as well.  I think it should be possible to find a cleaner-upper for under $2,000.  The ones I like always seem to be more than that, but occasionally there is something interesting for under $2k.

[JWalker]

David mentioned using a friends boat....the guy next door on vacation is a sailor, and we have had some chats....

he said that he had done a good bit of the European canals...so I asked him if he sailed over or was already over there.

He told me that years ago he met and befriended a sailor who lived over there, and that they did boat swaps each year for many years....so he and his wife would fly over to Europe and sail for a few weeks, and then the other people would fly to the US and sail for a few weeks.

I thought that was neat.  :D

[David_Old_Jersey]

I just ran Skylarks link through Google Translate (me Dutch not quite what it could be!).

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marktplaats.nl%2F

David mentioned using a friends boat....the guy next door on vacation is a sailor, and we have had some chats....

The internet makes finding freinds in foreign places a lot easier nowadays - and IMO freindships being based around some degree of self interest (for both) is fair enough.

[Jim_ME]

Hurley got a good name over here, and they built a lot of small boats

David, I do like the Hurley sailboats, and even have an 18-footer with the deep single keel...seems like a full keel with separate rudder. A bit deep at 3.25 feet to be very practical as a trailer-sailer, so may try to trade for a similar sized twin keel...

I did find this video of an H18 cruising in Sweden. Seemed like a beautiful example of how much one can do with such a boat, if willing to embrace that smallness. (Yet maybe their other boat is a Swan 48?)  ;D

[Jim_ME]

I knew of a guy in AZ with a flicka who kept it in Mexico, on the sea of cortez...it was a 5 hour drive from him and stored on the trailer it cost him $57/mo He just called them up when he wanted to go sailing for a long weekend and they would put the flicka in for him. He said it took 7 hours towing, and alot more gas.

JW, One of my friends has, for the last several years, spent the summer/fall in Southern Maine and winters in Arizona. I had been looking at the Sea of Cortez as a possible winter destination, with me storing my modest trailer-sailboat on his rural property when I was not using it. I got a diesel pickup to get better long-distance fuel economy, and a pickup camper--to complete the surf-and-turf package.

Also, I have a sister and family in Southern California, which seemed within trailerable distance from Arizona. Maybe it would be possible to trailer-sail from nearby Ventura, see the channel Islands National Park and other islands there.

Unfortunately, my pal seems to have lost interest in sailing. At the same time, with the lingering recession combines with high-and-rising fuel costs, these plans are receding into the sunset for now. Still, it was encouraging to read what you wrote about the guy you know that was successfully doing something similar.

[JWalker]

I know a guy with a Dolphin 24 that trailers from AZ and cruises cortez. I think its like 7 hours.

Morgan and I have been thinking about doing the same with our dolphin.

[skylark]

http://watersport.marktplaats.nl/kajuitzeilboten-en-zeiljachten/542713785-leuke-boot.html