Which small boats to consider? Wishlist included.

[captxtina]

Hi--

I'm selling my first boat, a 28' fin keel masthead sloop for something smaller. I know, crazy isn't it? Seems like most people go up; not i! But, she has taught me so much so frankly, I'll be sad to see her go, but I know more about what I want so there's no need to delay the inevitable (sounds like a relationship, huh?).

I'd love your help, fellow sailors. I'd like to share with you what I'm looking for and then maybe you can guide me in the right direction (and help me avoid others).

Looking for:
Small: 18-24' (could do 25-26' if necessary or the boat is great)
Stable (Initial stability, like Cape Dory Typhoon. On the other extreme, the Sea Sprite 23' seems to give too much heal almost immediately -- i'd like not to scare my partner too much who doesn't like the whole heeling thing!)
?but also Fun! Fast -- I'd like to be able to go out for a sail, even in 5 knots of breeze.
A balanced boat!
Good boat to take out of the harbor and go some distance. I plan to cross Sounds, but not Seas.
Self-bailing cockpit.
Could sleep (even camping-style sleeping) under a homemade cockpit canvas.
Kept on a mooring.


My current boat (the 28' footer) yaws too much in chop and waves, so it is particularly important that the boat does NOT do this. What I'm trying to figure out is, does it have to be full keel to prevent this? Or is it the cross-section of the hull itself that determines this (i.e. should I be looking for a wine-glass shaped hull?). Is it the beam-to-length ratio? My suspicion is that the yawing and lack of stability of my current vessel is in part to the beam-to-length ratio and the very round hull shape.
It would be really nice to have something that cuts through the waves rather than slamming upon them (or gets pushed around).

Here are some boats that have caught my eye. But as I learned the first time around, the important thing is really how it sails, and since I can't test sail all of these in chop and 18-22knots of wind, I'm relying on the collective experience and knowledge here.
Love the Alerion 26' or 28' (but it's too expensive)
Pearson Ensign
Beneteau 235
Any Cape Dorys, including the Typhoon (19') and 25', but maybe it's too slow and requires wind. It would be nice to take a sail even in 5 knots of wind.
SeaSprite 23, though it doesn't have good initial stability. i.e. it -really- heals over. And, I've heard it is a wet boat underway, but maybe with a dodger this can be mitigated (?).
Pacific Seacraft Flicka 20' (but too heavy for what I will use it for). While I will cross Channels and Sounds, I'm not going to cross seas and oceans.
Sparkman Stephens 23'
23' Southcoast Alberg
Andunge
Bristols
Sabres
25' Seafarer
24' Bridges Point (Lcve).
Herreshofs (of course!)
16' Haven Sloop
Contessa 26 (but this may be overkill -- see earlier comment about not crossing oceans)
26' Ohlsson Sloop
Columbia 24' (there is a Columbia 24' for sale in my neighborhood, but I don't know how it sails. The cabin top seems a bit high for the boat (i.e. is it top-heavy?).
Rhodes 19.

A lot of these do have full keels, but I'm okay with fin keels as long as the boat does not yaw (and does feel stable and cuts through chop).

Thanks for any suggestions you have.

[captxtina]

By the way, I did scour the forum for related discussions but didn't find anything. I apologize ahead of time if this had been discussed and please direct me to the right place. thanks.

[Tim]

From my experience you will get less yaw from a full keel, hull shape will make a difference but there is much less pivoting with a longer keel.

I think you have a pretty good list to choose from, I myself chose an Ariel for extended coastal cruising with two aboard.

Since I also own a Typhoon, I have to point out the cabin is very small.



I have done a two week cruise up north with two but it was tight. I did have a good cockpit tent made for it which would help some.

[Porter Wayfare]

My wife and I started out looking at a beautiful Typhoon, but when we got into the cabin together it was obvious it was just too small--and we're not big people. Same with the Sea Sprite. See my boat search thread in the discussions section for our experiences with other boats. Our parameters were very much like yours. Very much.

I noticed that the Alberg 22 is not on your list. We just got an Alberg 22. The cabin is still small, but not cramped. The boat is a beautiful design. We're thrilled, and my wife is is hard to please. She seems to take a much clearer view of things boat-related. I seem to revert to a teenage romantic besotment. She says that the "revert" in the previous sentence is misleading.

One of my posts near the end has a link to a very nice A22 in Owen Sound, ON.

Anyhow, see my thread, and good luck!

[captxtina]

@Tom, I recognized your boom tent from your "Boom Tent for the Typhoon" thread you posted last year! Your photo really helped me visualize being able to sail far and camp on a small boat -- thank you! And, thanks for your post on this reply. The Ariel looks like an option. I think Pearson had a series of smaller cruisers during the Ariel timeframe such as the Ensign (22'), Electra (22'), Triton (at 28'), and Commander (at 26').

[captxtina]

I noticed that the Alberg 22 is not on your list. We just got an Alberg 22. The cabin is still small, but not cramped. The boat is a beautiful design. We're thrilled

@Porter Wayfare. I just looked images of the Alberg 22 online per your post. thanks! It looks like a great little boat -- and has some room. I'd like to look at the length-to-beam ratio. Have you sailed her in a heavy breeze yet or in big chop/seas? May I ask where you sail her? I wonder how the Alberg 22, Ensign 22, Sea Sprite 23, and the Columbia 24 compare in terms of sailing characteristics.

[Porter Wayfare]

I just got the Alberg. All my successful sailing experience is in a wood Wayfarer dinghy--16' long. Here is how much sailing experience I have in an Alberg 22 (               ). I'm going on feeling--see comment about besotted.

I'm in the Great Lakes, mostly Huron. I wanted something that I could tow to many different launching sites. It's all in my thread.

But, I'll let you know how it goes pretty soon!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Whilst may not meet the "Too much" heel requirement, I would certainly add a Folkboat / one of the derivatives to your wishlist. Maybe a Folksong?...around 25 foot - but IMO a folkboat beats just about anything on the pretty front  :)

http://www.creepycrabs.com/ship_details.php?id=1487

Although may be a difficult find on your side of the world - a Newbridge Corribee sounds spot on, again not sure about the heeling thing  ???

[johnnyandjebus]

capt

The alberg 22 is a beautiful little boat, can't go wrong with it. With that said if you are considering a alberg 22 you may want to look into a contessa 26. A very similar designed boat with an extra 4 feet. They will sail very similar but the co26 will give you better performance in every category except the marina bill and initial purchase cost. :D

The co26 is  small boat by 26 feet standards, but she is easy to sail, fairly well built and highly regarded. The extra 4 feet will give you room for an inboard engine(assuming that matters) and extra storage space.

I own a co26 and love it, with that said if she dropped out of my life an alberg 22 would be on the list of boats to look at. So, IMHO, you owe it to yourself a walk-thru on both and then decide.

John

[Captain Smollett]

Hello, captxtina.

A couple of things in your post caught my eye...jumped out as it were.

Stable (Initial stability, like Cape Dory Typhoon. On the other extreme, the Sea Sprite 23' seems to give too much heal almost immediately -- i'd like not to scare my partner too much who doesn't like the whole heeling thing!)

I could be completely wrong on this; this is not an engineering comment, but merely something I *THINK* I've noticed.

It seems to me that "initial stability" is inversely related to ultimate stability.  All the things that make a boat seem "tippy" at first (and easy to heel) are also often things that help firm her up where it counts - preventing capsize.

On the other hand, initial stability seems to equate with "yeah, she's quite stable under foot, but once she starts to go over, she just keeps right on going." 

Like I said, maybe that's completely wrong.

I'm not sure I'd characterize the Typhoon as having high "initial stability," since most of Alberg's boats were designed more favoring the ultimate stability end of the spectrum.  Most pictures you see of Alberg boats really sailing, they are heeling.

That said, I understand the aversion to heeling.  If you partner really hates heeling, too bad there are not a lot of options in a multi-hull in the size range you are looking at.

?but also Fun! Fast -- I'd like to be able to go out for a sail, even in 5 knots of breeze.

I've sailed several different types of hulls in under 5 knots of breeze.  Just this week, we had a brand-spanking new helmsman on the tiller of a fat, beamy, relative slug of a boat (Portsmouth Rating about 107 or so) making 1.0-1.5 knots in about 3-5 knots of breeze (when we had ANY wind) close hauled and pushing 2.0 knots on a broad reach.

Given that I RARELY see any of the "fast boats" even on the water on days like this, I don't know how much better they'd do.   ;) ;D  I think in the light stuff, it boils down to the skill, patience and will of the sailor.

Good boat to take out of the harbor and go some distance. I plan to cross Sounds, but not Seas.

I think that any boat that you LIKE to sail and get comfortable and confident with will meet this criterion.  I'd think just about anything in your size range would suit; the key piece is between the tiller and the cockpit seat.   ;D

My current boat (the 28' footer) yaws too much in chop and waves, so it is particularly important that the boat does NOT do this. What I'm trying to figure out is, does it have to be full keel to prevent this? Or is it the cross-section of the hull itself that determines this (i.e. should I be looking for a wine-glass shaped hull?). Is it the beam-to-length ratio? My suspicion is that the yawing and lack of stability of my current vessel is in part to the beam-to-length ratio and the very round hull shape.
It would be really nice to have something that cuts through the waves rather than slamming upon them (or gets pushed around).

I believe the hull sections and overall shape do play a factor, but how big are the waves you are talking about?  What are the conditions you've been pushed around in?

It has been my experience in my boats that yawing and general control problems in choppy waves are due to slowing down too much...the boat needs a certain degree of way-on to have control.  Obviously, there are conditions where you need to essentially "stop," but those are not often encountered on inland waters (Great Lakes notwithstanding).

L/B is mostly about how easy it is to push through the water ... that is, how much HP it takes to reach a given speed and what the exact multiplier is for determining hull speed.  It does effect stability in a seaway, too.

My little trailer boat is 1350 lbs dry displacement, 18 ft LOA about 7 ft on the beam (to give you an idea of L/B).  The boat has rather large freeboard forward, and the wind (and waves) can really push the bow around.

The "keel" is a 4" baby keel with a centerboard that's about 2 ft wide.  She's fairly flat bottomed (aft) with a generously round turn of the bilge.  The underwater profile is quite similar to a fin keel boat when the board is down.

I have sailed this boat upwind, across the wind and downwind in 22-30 knots and the associated wind-chop on an inland lake (which lagged the fully developed Beaufort described sea-state by at least 1 Beaufort number).  I offer this only as wondering out loud if the lack of full keel is what is pushing the boat around (vice MAYBE not getting enough speed?...I don't know).

The very first time I had that boat out in over 20 knots, I had ZERO control and was pushed around like CRAZY.  Even motoring.  That's how I discovered I was going too slow...I accidentally throttled up when trying to slow down even more and the boat positively became docile.  I could steer!

All that said, I MUCH prefer the "ride" and control of my full keeled Alberg 30 to ANY fin (or centerboard) keeled boat I've ever sailed.  There is a HUGE difference.

(Maybe the speed thing is completely irrelevant, but for what it's worth, Eric Hiscock made a comment in one of his books that most people report rough weather as being rougher than it really is precisely because they are under-canvassed and lack control with the boat)

[Porter Wayfare]

Smollett, sir,
That was an interesting post!

[Jim_ME]

Hi captxtina,

Here is one that might be worth looking at...

Cape Dory 25 sailboat with outboard motor - $3900 (Falmouth, MA)
http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/2939852751.html

I have always liked these Cape Dory 25s (Allied Greenwich 24s). Large enough to be seaworthy, yet small enough (4,000 pounds and 3-foot draft full keel) to be reasonably trailerable.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=366

Here is an example of one on a trailer...
http://triadtrailers.com/triad-trailer-gallery/sailboat-trailers/sailboats-25-30-feet/1321-2/

-Jim

[captxtina]

Wow, this has given me some things to think. About.
#1, about Stability. Per Capt Smollet's post, I'm now -removing- the "initial stability" bullet. I've read the same thing about the inverse relationship between initial and ultimate stability, which may be oversimplifying it, but I think that as long as I'm comfortable on the boat and she and I are a good fit for one another, I'll be confident and my crew will be as well (and thusly, the heeling may become less of a thing for them).

@PorterWayfare, I totally get the smitten thing. In fact, when David_Old_Jersey mentioned the Folkboat, I thought, "yes!" I had come across them online a few years ago and thought they were the coolest thing ever. So beautiful. I have never heard of the Newbridge Corribee, but that's super cool as well.

if you are considering a alberg 22 you may want to look into a contessa 26.

@johnnyandjebus, thanks, I'll take a look at both. I came very close to getting a Contessa 26 some years ago, but at that time I decided I wanted to stand up in the cabin. I know more now and know that sailing ability is the primary decision maker for me and if I can get some creature comforts in too, then that would just be a bonus. :) 

Cape Dory 25 sailboat

@Jim_ME
Ah, yes, the CD 25's. I laugh at myself quite a lot actually when it comes to the Cape Dory's because when I wander through the boat yard and something catches my eye, I usually come to find out that it's a Cape Dory -- a 22, 25, or a 36 (the 36 is lovely, btw). Maybe it's a sign, or maybe it's just because it's the most common traditionally designed boat in new england -- either way I'm rather entertained by it. I think I'd like to stay in the 20-23' range, but maybe a longer boat (such as the 25) will be a better sailor.

any boat that you LIKE to sail and get comfortable and confident with will meet this criterion.  I'd think just about anything in your size range would suit; the key piece is between the tiller and the cockpit seat.   ;D

@Captain Smollet, great, great pearls of wisdom. thank you.
And what you wrote regarding hull shape and speed of the boat (pertaining to the amount of canvas), are worth some thought. I hadn't considered too little canvas as the issue. To answer your question about geo, I sail along the new england coast. In my quest, I started to ask a couple people in the PHRF fleet I sail in if I can go out with them for a sail so I can get more experience feeling out different types of small cruising boats.
And, I fully accept that in part, it's the sailor (me), which is why I'm looking for a smaller (19-23'ish) boat that I can just go out and play around with -- test the sails, make adjustments, and really learn the boat and teach myself (like I have with dinghy-sailing), and which is a great segue to Capt Smollet's statement:

I think in the light stuff, it boils down to the skill, patience and will of the sailor.

).

Thanks. :)

[Porter Wayfare]

As far as CD25s go, look for the dinette cabin version. In the standard version I was not able to sit upright with my back against the back of the settee. The dinette avoids that astounding oversight.

[Jim_ME]

There is an interesting discussion of the Cape Dory 25 in the Blue Water Boats, including how the CD25 was adapted (adding freeboard and LOA) from the smaller Greenwich 24 designed  by George Stadel for Allied Yachts.

It may be that the original Greenwich 24 was enough smaller that it was clearly perceived as primarily a daysailer/overnighter/weekender, competing perhaps with other smallish boats like the Sea Sprite 23, and the like. However when Cape Dory enlarged it, and added the galley counters aft, they may have also increased expectations that it was then closer to a small cruising design, even though the sitting and standing headroom was not necessarily up to fulfilling those expectations.

Comparing the drawings for the two designs...
Greenwich 24
Cape Dory 25
one can see the G24`s lower freeboard and smaller cabin trunk.

The CD25 interior layout drawing does show a counter/shelf that extends forward over the settee that, in the aft area near the galley, would prevent a person from leaning back beyond the cabin trunk area (attempting to prevent the sitting headroom issue there). The forward area of the settee the problem is more pronounced. Perhaps the designer envisioned the layout to work for a family with two adults sitting aft and then shorter children sitting in the forward areas?

So the person that adapted the G24 design appears to be aware of the issue. I do not know if this counter extension was included in the construction of many of the boats produced. Omitting it may have given the impression of more space (or of the more conventional layout of larger boats such as the Ariel, Bristol 27, and Triton, which had enough volume/headroom to make the layout work well).

Whomever adapted the G24 (could it have involved Alberg, who had done many of the later Cape Dory designs?) must have made a conscious decision to retain the concave curve of the sheer (a beautiful feature), and not add enough additional freeboard to solve the standing/sitting headroom. I assume that the judgement was made that it was more than the original design could take and still retain its character and sailing ability.

The article states that the Cape Dory 25D (and CD 26 perhaps) was later designed to replace the CD25, and so a judgement may have been made (perhaps including Alberg) that to address these issues would take a considerably larger design (like the Ariel)--and one where he was free to start from scratch, rather than modifying an existing smaller design.

As I wrote previously, the CD25 that I sailed had the dinette layout and so I did not experience the sitting headroom issue. Yet, that was the only dinette version that I had been aboard, and cannot recall seeing many others over the years. I am puzzled about why the dinette version appears to be so rare. I would have thought that more buyers would have chosen it over the two-settee layout. Perhaps as a weekender, having the p/s settees always ready to use, whereas the dinette had to be converted before becoming usable as a berth(s), was a factor?

It does seem to me that even though the design is something of a compromise, there is a good deal of value with some of the very reasonable prices that the CD25 and Greenwich24 can be found at (possibly reflecting its limitations for a small cruiser, and its reputation as a wet boat in rough conditions). Yet, as the Bluewater Boats article points out, even with its compromises, the CD25 was the most popular selling model that Cape Dory produced, so must still have had quite a bit of appeal to the general market.

As Bill NH posted, there are some Greenwich 24s on the market for $1200 and I have seen some CD25s at the same price--so when shopping based primarily on cost, either boat seems like a good deal when comparing with other boats in that range. For myself, when looking at (fairly rough) CD Typhoon or Corinthian 19s (which have a much smaller cabin and less headroom) in that price range, the G24 or CD25 seems like an appealing alternative.

I still like the Ty19 or B19 as trailer-daysailers, since I already have a trailer for that size, and so that I could tow it with a smaller vehicle than a CD25. I have other larger boats and so a smaller small boat is advantageous.  

[Jim_ME]

If a (reasonable) CD25 dinette version is not available, perhaps one way to provide another temporary seat at a table with good headroom, would be to have a infill board (with cushion) at the forward end of the cabin that rested on ledges at the edge of the settee berths. Something that was quick and easy to remove and stow for access to the head and forward cabin? (Someone has probably already done something like this.)

[CharlieJ]

Sure has been- here's the table I built for Tehani. Hangs on two brackets and stows up under the  foredeck

[CharlieJ]

And here's the one on Necessity- works inside or outside

[Jim_ME]

Charlie, It actually crossed my mind that maybe you had done something like that. Nice work. I think this is the first that I`ve seen photos of them.

Having the option to set it up in the cockpit is one sure way to solve the headroom problem at the table. :)

I was wondering whether Tehani, being somewhat similar to the CD25 in size (beam), had any sitting headroom issue, and if so whether it was just something that you got by with. Looking at your photo of Tehani`s main cabin it looks like it may have been dealt with by lowering the settee berths height to give more headroom above them? Maybe the Meridian carries her beam down lower so that this is possible without narrowing the settee berths too much?

One of my earlier boats had a table with stainless pipe legs and sockets in the cabin. and another set of the sockets in the cockpit sole, so that the table could easily be set up at either place. It sure was a nice feature.

Given the CD25 sitting headroom issue forward, I wondered whether it might make sense to have an additional temporary seat forward at the table, even though it would partly obstruct the access to the head/forward cabin. Seemed easier than to convert the CD25 interior to a dinette layout, and would retain the advantage of having a second sea berth always at the ready.

Also I remembered seeing a photo of a continuous U-seat in a large Cheoy Lee main cabin that appeared to opt for continuous seating at some expense to ease of access to the forward cabin (see photos). Beautifully unconventional, I thought.

[CharlieJ]

Tehani has 5'9" head room in main saloon. Side decks are far enough out to not bother seated head room, and settees are at design height. The settee BACKS, however, were added by me. Extra person sits on Vee berth, actually IN fore cabin. Many pics in my Sailfar gallery. Page two of members galleries,  under Tehani. Couple show Laura seated on settee-

http://sailfar.net/gallery/index.php?cat=10069

Necessity, being a trailer boat, has seated headroom, but not standing