10 Design Points for a Sailfar boat - for long term cruising (1 or 2 onboard)

[David_Old_Jersey]

• By Sailfar size am talking up to 30' and intended to be operated on a budget that has limits! (boat and crew!).......and likely to be on the low side.

• By Long Term Cruising am talking about being onboard for at least a few years (whether or not that is also voyaging far / regularly), not only for now - but also over the long term (i.e. as you get older won't be likely to sell for more space or whatever).......and with at least the potential for "forever" even if the reality is otherwise.

• By Design Points am talking about things which can't be easily changed (if at all) and also not simply things like a boat in seaworthy condition or having a mast (essential though they are!).......those can be added to any boat.

10 is an arbitary figure! My list as follows - any others would be of interest.


1.   27 to 30 foot (I like smaller, but bigger is (usually) more comfortable at sea and more spacious in port....maybe not so important now, but in 10 or 20 years?).

2.   Full Standing Headroom at least near the hatch (and over the galley if not there) - ideally throughout the saloon, but if not then full sitting headroom, including in the principal bunks.

3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!)

4.   A separate heads compartment (and not under a bunk)

5.   At least capacity to create a double berth - for in port sleeping or "entertainment"  ;D.

6.   A separate (in port) sleeping area (from the Saloon).

7.   Two (under deck) people areas (i.e. separate forecabin and saloon)

8.   A decent sized galley area (space for a full sized cooker (even if not fitted), a Fridge / Freezer, a plumbed in sink and food preparation space - even if including saloon table and / or the Nav Area (if any) - plus storage space.........even at the price of a dedicated chart / nav area)

9.   Saloon lounging area for at least 2 persons.

10.   Room for 2 to lounge (flat out!) on deck, ideally both in the cockpit

11.   A seakindly hull (for me that is a boat that does not require constant attention to keep heading in the same direction - including when the wind / sea pipes up, a decent bit of keel and some weight is useful for that - even if not always essential)

12.   Both Hull and Deck solid fibreglass (no cores!) - Wood or Steel if you like (and understand) those.

13.   Capacity to add an o/b on the stern (at least for port entry and exit) if main engine goes pop and funds not immediately available to sort. In an ideal world I would say o/b all the time, but 27 to 30 getting outside o/b power.

14.   A bow roller and Windlass (appreciate that can be added later - but a PITA and costly to retrofit).

15.   Decent Anchor Chain stowage.

Ok, I appreciate there are 15 of them! - but it's my list! - and I probably have forgotten a few things as well. I also know that a few things will be arguable - but hopefully folks can see where I am coming from, even if not agreeing with me (write your own list or just make new suggestions). And my boat (at 30') does not have all of them (a fail on 10 & 13, or at least not ideal).

[Godot]

It's a decent list, I think. It's a lot to put in a 30 footer; but I'm sure it's been done. Easier, probably with a boat that won't spend a lot of time offshore (a Catalina crams in a lot of space for the length). Not to take anything away from your list; but I, personally, could compromise on a few of these. Of course, which one's may depend on the other half of the cruising equation...

1.   27 to 30 foot (I like smaller, but bigger is (usually) more comfortable at sea and more spacious in port....maybe not so important now, but in 10 or 20 years?). EXACTLY the size range I'm looking at for my next boat. And what a range it is, given the differences in beam. Some 27 footers might be bigger inside than some 30 footers!

2.   Full Standing Headroom at least near the hatch (and over the galley if not there) - ideally throughout the saloon, but if not then full sitting headroom, including in the principal bunks. This matters so much for comfort. The old salts who where happy with sitting headroom (after all, how often are you standing?) didn't know what they were missing!

3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!) I've come to the conclusion that this is one of those compromise areas. As a rule, one of the two sailors is likely to be on watch at any time while the other would be resting. Two would be great; but one is, I think, enough. Although climbing into a high side bunk might not be so much fun.

4.   A separate heads compartment (and not under a bunk). It's the rare woman who doesn't rate this highly. Improve the potential female cruising pool...get a boat with an enclosed head!

5.   At least capacity to create a double berth - for in port sleeping or "entertainment"  Grin. Heck, what's the point of bringing along company if you can't, err, entertain each other

6.   A separate (in port) sleeping area (from the Saloon). Nice, sure. So long as the separate sleeping area doesn't turn into a separate storage area.

7.   Two (under deck) people areas (i.e. separate forecabin and saloon). For harmony? Bah. Who needs it. When underway you will probably hardly see each other (opposite watch schedules). At port it might be best to just explore separately. And keep some extra cash for a hotel in case one of you just needs to get away from the other.

8.   A decent sized galley area (space for a full sized cooker (even if not fitted), a Fridge / Freezer, a plumbed in sink and food preparation space - even if including saloon table and / or the Nav Area (if any) - plus storage space.........even at the price of a dedicated chart / nav area). How decent is decent? Big range here.

9.   Saloon lounging area for at least 2 persons.

10.   Room for 2 to lounge (flat out!) on deck, ideally both in the cockpit

11.   A seakindly hull (for me that is a boat that does not require constant attention to keep heading in the same direction - including when the wind / sea pipes up, a decent bit of keel and some weight is useful for that - even if not always essential)

12.   Both Hull and Deck solid fibreglass (no cores!) - Wood or Steel if you like (and understand) those. A solid fiberglass hull should be no problem. A solid deck, well, that just significantly limits your options. Recoring a deck would surely suck. But decks are cored for a reason and generally make sense. Provided you can keep them dry, that is.

13.   Capacity to add an o/b on the stern (at least for port entry and exit) if main engine goes pop and funds not immediately available to sort. In an ideal world I would say o/b all the time, but 27 to 30 getting outside o/b power.Soooo, forget about double enders, I guess. And possibly a windvane.

14.   A bow roller and Windlass (appreciate that can be added later - but a PITA and costly to retrofit).I don't know if a windlass is really necessary on a boat this size. A bow roller should help manhandling the anchor up, just by the change in geometry.

15.   Decent Anchor Chain stowage. Yup.

Ok, I appreciate there are 15 of them! - but it's my list! - and I probably have forgotten a few things as well. I also know that a few things will be arguable - but hopefully folks can see where I am coming from, even if not agreeing with me (write your own list or just make new suggestions). And my boat (at 30') does not have all of them (a fail on 10 & 13, or at least not ideal).

Things that are important to me; but can probably be retrofitted to most boats...

Tankage. For a couple, a minimum of 30 gallons?
Solar generation.
Adequate, well secured, battery capacity.
LED nav and cabin lights.
A decent dinghy and a place to put the blasted thing (what do you do with the beast on a small boat?).
Hull insulation and heater (unless cold climes are ruled out, of course).
DODGER!

[Jim_ME]

To include the SailFarers that we have seen here, I would expand the definition to include those who have cruised for several months (more than just a two-week vacation cruise). I do not meet this myself, but hope to. I would also say that a small family (say of 4) is not so uncommon, or a couple with a guest or two (and/or a seadog or cat).

Although I don't disagree that the size that you describe is ideal in many respects, I am [also] interested in the lower end of the range for a SailFar boat, and have thought about this for myself, and offered some opinions in the thread of Porter's boat search, and other places.


1.   27 to 30 foot (I like smaller, but bigger is (usually) more comfortable at sea and more spacious in port....maybe not so important now, but in 10 or 20 years?).
I tend to think of size in terms of displacement, and believe that you enter the lower end of the optimal range when the boat is over 5,000 pounds. Examples would be: Meridian 25/26, Ariel 26, Cape dory 25D/26, Contessa 26, Contest 25...etc.

I am thinking of extended coastal cruising with some passages, and the possibility of trailering (at least to store over the winter at home). If it is going to be crossing oceans and carrying lots of provisions and spares, and no chance to go ashore for long periods of time, with routinely no alternative to riding out heavy weather, then I can certainly understand the desire to have a larger boat. While we have seen it done in many Contessa 26s [even a few upgraded Ariels], I find myself leaning toward a Triton 28 (Atom), Alberg 30, Seawind 31/32, maybe a Westerly Centaur 26, Luders 33...and others. For extended voyaging, I don't begrudge anyone for going up to 15k pounds or so (say an Alberg 37 or Camper Nicholson 31/32), but this seems like the upper end of the SailFar range. There are certainly great classic boats that are larger than that Rhodes Reliant/bounty 41s, Hinckley Bermuda 40. I have occasionally read some of the sites and threads by owners of these boats, and there does not seem to be a lot overlap with what I would consider to be Sailfar concerns. Frugality is not usually a big concern. At some point the Thoreau approach does not seem to apply so much anymore.


2.   Full Standing Headroom at least near the hatch (and over the galley if not there) - ideally throughout the saloon, but if not then full sitting headroom, including in the principal bunks.


3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!)
Agree that this is ideal, but sometimes with a dinette there is only the one opposite settee or quarter berth. If only for a crew of two, as Adam says, if you are in a situation where you need a sea berth, one person is likely to be in the cockpit, so one will suffice. I suppose that there are may be situations in heavy weather where you might want to heave-to for a period of time and both rest. If it is a rare situation, one may just put cushions on the cabin sole to get the other temporary "sea berth".

4.   A separate heads compartment (and not under a bunk)
This seems like a nice feature, but I would have to say that it is secondary, given that the crews of boats (such as S/V Faith, Tehani, and others) seemed to do alright without it.  

5.   At least capacity to create a double berth - for in port sleeping or "entertainment"  Grin.
My boats have all had the V-berth (with infill piece/cushion) for a double in port. Finding a layout with another double in the main cabin is less easy in a boat this size. Some layouts have a dinette that converts to a double. Seems like it would not be difficult to modify one settee berth so that it can be extended into a double berth, although it may take up the entire standing sole area, so this seems most practical as an in-port feature with just a couple aboard.

6.   A separate (in port) sleeping area (from the Saloon).
That would be the V-berth in the forward cabin.

7.   Two (under deck) people areas (i.e. separate forecabin and saloon)
I can see that this would be handy for a family cruising, or a couple with guests. If the crew is almost always just the couple, it seems less important, and some of the designs that open up/combine the main cabin and forecabin may be preferable to give the feeling of more space.

8.   A decent sized galley area (space for a full sized cooker (even if not fitted), a Fridge / Freezer, a plumbed in sink and food preparation space - even if including saloon table and / or the Nav Area (if any) - plus storage space.........even at the price of a dedicated chart / nav area)
Again, a nice feature in a larger boat, but it seems like many have done well with a small galley, seaswing, extended with a BBQ on the stern pulpit

9.   Saloon lounging area for at least 2 persons.
This is where I believe that you need some minimum volume not only to physically fit in the cabin, but to have enough room to avoid feeling claustrophobic. I believe that having comfortable room at a table for 2, and room for 2 more (family or guests) is important. I don't see many examples of being able to achieve this in a boat of SailFar seaworthiness under 5,000 pounds.

10.   Room for 2 to lounge (flat out!) on deck, ideally both in the cockpit

11.   A seakindly hull (for me that is a boat that does not require constant attention to keep heading in the same direction - including when the wind / sea pipes up, a decent bit of keel and some weight is useful for that - even if not always essential)
Yes, and seaworthy.

12.   Both Hull and Deck solid fibreglass (no cores!) - Wood or Steel if you like (and understand) those.
Again, there are many boats on this site and elsewhere, that have cores and have done fine. But I do agree that it is an advantage in terms of its resistance to neglect (as we have just seen with the Ariel(s) in the Detroit area). In a perfect world, all boats would be well maintained and a deck core would not be an issue--but we see that they are often not, and especially the older boats are susceptible to deterioration. I think that it is a good feature when decks are built of solid laminate (including solid corrugated stiffener panels applied to the deck underside), as is seen in many of the European boats.

13.   Capacity to add an o/b on the stern (at least for port entry and exit) if main engine goes pop and funds not immediately available to sort. In an ideal world I would say o/b all the time, but 27 to 30 getting outside o/b power.
I agree. Also if you find a boat with an inboard that needs to be rebuilt or replaced, you can remove it and do that at your leisure. Having to pay a boatyard to replace an inboard diesel with a new one, is well beyond the financal ability of many of us, I believe.

14.   A bow roller and Windlass (appreciate that can be added later - but a PITA and costly to retrofit).
I agree that the bow roller, usually one larger than the original to carry ground tackle heavier than what was considered average, is a good feature. On the windlass...this is where there is a big difference between having a 5k-lb (25/26-ft) boat with an ample 22-pound anchor and a 10k (30-ft) boat with a much larger anchor/chain where many would want a windlass.

15.   Decent Anchor Chain stowage.
Perhaps another reason that when you get much under a 5k boat, the weight of much chain in the bow (especially small stowage compartments that are way up high and forward to try to maximize the forward cabin size in a smaller boat) will begin to affect the boat trim.

For offshore (and ambitious "coastal") sailing I prefer the designs with a bridge deck, and on boats in the smaller end of the Sailfar range, to extend the bridge deck function (say with a built in or removable extra locker) to reduce the cockpit volume, especially for boats with a relatively large original volume. Also large/oversized cockpit drains to drain any boarding waves quickly. Especially important with a smallish boat where the trim will be more adversely affected than a larger boat. [I believe that J. Baldwin and others have discussed this on their sites.] 

[David_Old_Jersey]

Cheers for the feedback - I guess my list was skewed by the fact that I can be "difficult"  :P to live with in small spaces. or large ones  ;D and for me seperate areas are very important - but I appreciate that not everyone quite the same and that for that the biggest resource is ashore - including a hotel (or whatever), whether for both - or for one!

A couple of things I could compromise on (probably wouldn't reject a boat solely on only 1 seaberth - but my bet is if the boat was suitable for me on most of everything else then she would have at least 2). For me that no core deck things is a biggie, perhaps over here core for boats was adopted a bit later than in the US. In any event I see core replacement as a when event, not an "if" event - and as my own focus would be on boats from 60's and 70's then that would be a lot of PO's......and at least one would have been a numpty  ::) - and it only takes one to get the ball rolling on wet core.

+1 on the Tankage - it's one thing I forgot to include (doh!) - for me decent inbuilt tankage is very important, can always add more - but never so useful as an inbuilt tank as tends to use awkward spaces / the rest of the boat fits nicely around it!

The dinghy stowage thing is the great challenge!..........so I didn't bother include even trying!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Jim,

I must confess I think the 26 / 27 foot size is the sweet spot on boat length and looks - am not entirely familiar with your list, but the Contessa and Ariel fits with what I like (over here the Halycon and Invicta would be other options than the Contessa). I can't really argue with any of your comments, in my book no 100% right answers - more just interested in the thoughts of others.

Have just re-read my original post to try and work out WTF I was actually trying to get at!, certainly not trying to say smaller can't be done (as you say, plenty have done and had fun doing it!) - personally I would favour going for less than ideal on the points in my list in exchange for a larger budget for "getting out on the water" (whatever that may involve).

I guess what I was trying to get at was a boat that would suit over the long term rather than something that, no matter how much you love her, you know in your heart is not a "forever" boat - if budget allows. and that therefore raises challenges in lavishing time and cash on her.....as this will likely be mostly lost  :(


But boats is all about challenges - and compromises!

[Jim_ME]

After thinking about this some more, I don't want to suggest that there is some firm line, where the issues of the larger boats necessarily abruptly stop an overlap with what we call "SailFar" range and concerns. Someone could have a 20k boat and be very much focused on simplicity and be as cost-conscious as many of us. Even if they are increasingly the exception, I should definitely acknowledge them and our shared experience and concerns. I guess it is more of a bell curve than a wall.  :)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Have also been doing some further thought (I do that sometimes!).

I guess what the list is also about is simply as a heads up (including for anyone Googling past?) about things which will likely become more important over time (to those onboard) - whether from time spent onboard or simply from age (of Skipper / Crew!)......and which by the time a boat is bought will be too late to change (at all or within a reasonable budget....the "nice stuff" can be added over years, as budget allows / according to the needs or wants of each).

In many respects I would say that a 26/27 footer (or shorter) is ideal when you are younger (especially if the choice is between smaller and going places or bigger and not going anywhere (or going places with a tighter kitty)....by younger I am talking 20's and 30's (obviously exceptions apply).....everything on the list(s) can be worked around, but sooner or later things like banging head / stooping will get old, as well as running short of water or stumbling over water cans. and that a feeling of space is nice - especially the more folk onboard! and you don't need 50' of Beneteau (with the beam to match!) to acheive that, but IMO, living space wise there is a line below which whilst folk can do - they won't want to / won't have fun doing (albeit that line varies from person to person). Can fit 4 people into a Mini - but most wouldn't have fun living in one for a month, let alone a year (or more).

I appreciate that the Windlass / bow roller thing is not strictly essential (depending on boat size / anchoring requirements) - but nonetheless out of a choice between having and not having I would go for both already fitted. You don't have to always use them (but damned handy when you want to) - and an expensive retrofit (which is the main reason for me including it on the list).

[okawbow]

After doing cruises in my Bristol 24, (solo), and a Cheoy Lee 31 ketch, with my wife), I learned a few things about what works on small boats. The C/L 31 is actually a stretched version of the Herreshoff 28. It just has a couple more feet added to the stern overhang to accomodate an inboard rudder. Also, because the C/L 31 is a narrow beamed design, there is less room inside than more modern designs.

Both boats have most of your design features, but the C/L 31 is more comfortable for two. Also, we sailed the C/L 31 offshore many miles and the extra room was taken up by the liferaft, extra food and water, storm gear, etc.
We were fairly comfortable at sea and at anchor on the Cheoy Lee. I don't think the Bristol 24 would have worked out as well for two, but we probably would have stayed inshore most of the time, so there would be less to haul around. My solo trip in the Bristol was just fine.

One thing I found on both trips, was the need to have a dependable motor. For me, that is an inboard diesel. One that I completely rebuilt myself. If you don't know much about diesels, and don't want to spend the time to learn; you are better off with a good outboard. I came down the Tenn Tom, which involved 650 miles of mostly motoring. We also did some of the intercoastal. As much as I like to sail; the truth is, I had to motor half the time. The diesel made that much easier.

[David_Old_Jersey]

One thing I found on both trips, was the need to have a dependable motor. For me, that is an inboard diesel.

I agree that a good diesel is 100% best, well once a boat gets above a certain size (I would say 26 to 30 foot pretty much for sure - 23 to 27 foot an o/b is doable - under 23 foot then an o/b is ideal)....all dependent on the boat (and o/b installation) and intended use. Boat lengths not set in stone! The thinking with under 23 foot being ideal for an o/b is less about the performance side (plusses and minuses to each) but simply that with older boats an o/b is likely to not be original! and is a far cheaper (and easier) to replace....and for me that is a biggie that wins hands down.

The reason I included at least the capacity to add an o/b on the stern (for port entry / exit - even if not for passages) is that in the low budget arena finding a Diesel inboard that either doesn't already have "issues" or will be having them (sooner or later) will be a challenge, mostly down to the PO(s). Won't say can't be done, but in practice may well have to settle for less than ideal (balanced off by the rest of the boat).......but the plan B of being able to strap on an o/b to at least get out on the water (and back in again!) would be useful to have, even if doing so does curtail the voyaging capabilities (as per the example you gave).

FWIW whilst can strap an o/b on the back of pretty much anything (neccessity being the mother of invention!) nonetheless some boats would make that easier than others (and the results a tad better performance wise - even where far from perfect). My own boat is a "fail" on this point  ;D

[Chattcatdaddy]

In regards to having a diesel in a small, one must also factor that it can be easliy reached for maintenance reasons. My previous boat a Cal29 had a 12hp Faryman diesel and it was a PITA to do anything and took me all day to change an impellar.

If I ever had another boat with diesel one of my top priorities will be figue out a way to have easy access for repairs, maintenance, etc.

The Ariel was designed with a stern lazarette for an O/B and works really well. Conceals the o/b and doesn`t break up her lines. Also can lift motor and store o/b on its side for passage making or just to get the lower unit out of the water. Also another benefit on the Ariel is the stowage space where a diesel would be placed. Under the cockpit I have tons of open space that I have yet to decide on what to store. I can visualize another water tank and a dozen other applications.

I see diesels fitting well into 30ft+ boats depending on design, but its hard to cram one of those boys into a smaller boat.

[CharlieJ]

Soon as I have time ( maybe tomorrow) I'll have some things to say on the points. Some good points have been made.

On Tehani, we use an OB , running in a well. Except for one thing, best of both worlds.. That thing being removal. Takes two people, a wrench and 30 minutes to get it out.. So the lower unit stays in the water. Which isn't really any worse than an inboard prop and strut as far as drag. The big problem is that since TBT is no longer available, there simply is no bottom paint worth a tinkers' D A M N on the aluminum lower unit. ALL of it starts to foul in about 2-3 weeks, and you must scrub it. Regularly.

And with a 4 stroke, you can't simply lay it across in the lazerette -on one tack or the other, the power head would be low, oil would run into the cylinders, and you'd mess up the engine, when you most needed it probably. Looked into that aspect quite seriously.

[Steve Bean]

When I had my family's Snipe in the marina in Monterey, I stretched a sheet of Visqueen under it and added a bit of chlorine bleach.  It stayed nice and clean.  Could this concept be applied to your lower unit?

[rorik]

Tried Petit Zinc Coat Barnacle Spray?
No barnacles on my prop after a year in Puget Sound.
The standard prop shaft zinc also lasted longer.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Pettit+%22Zinc+Coat+Barnacle+Spray&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1259&bih=686&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16863483904308909364&sa=X&ei=8PaxT5yRJ_DRiALcmaXfAw&ved=0CHIQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers

[rorik]

1.   27 to 30 foot (I like smaller, but bigger is (usually) more comfortable at sea and more spacious in port....maybe not so important now, but in 10 or 20 years?).
On/in my Cape Dory 28:
2.   Full Standing Headroom at least near the hatch (and over the galley if not there) - ideally throughout the saloon, but if not then full sitting headroom, including in the principal bunks.
I'm 6' even. Only place I hit my head is on the access plate for the bottom of the mast, because the PO made it out of wood and it juts down about an inch. I just haven't gotten around to swapping it out for a metal one yet.
3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!)
Opposing settees with lee cloths.
4.   A separate heads compartment (and not under a bunk)
Head is separated from salon by single door.
5.   At least capacity to create a double berth - for in port sleeping or "entertainment"  .
Originally had this arrangement, I deleted it.
6.   A separate (in port) sleeping area (from the Saloon).
I've really gotten used to the settees.
7.   Two (under deck) people areas (i.e. separate forecabin and saloon)
Just the salon. Forepeak is storage.
8.   A decent sized galley area (space for a full sized cooker (even if not fitted), a Fridge / Freezer, a plumbed in sink and food preparation space - even if including saloon table and / or the Nav Area (if any) - plus storage space.........even at the price of a dedicated chart / nav area)
Originally, sink was half under companionway. Moved to starboard side. Made original ice box smaller and better. Chart area is now under companionway, accessible from cockpit. All electrics also moved there. Chart area is also removable for 100% engine access. No room for more than a 2 burner propane cooktop - no oven. Pressure cooker is great.
9.   Saloon lounging area for at least 2 persons.
Settees seat 4 comfortably, even with plates on knees.
10.   Room for 2 to lounge (flat out!) on deck, ideally both in the cockpit
Mmmmm, cockpit isn't quite long enough if you're my height. Seats are also sort of narrow.
11.   A seakindly hull (for me that is a boat that does not require constant attention to keep heading in the same direction - including when the wind / sea pipes up, a decent bit of keel and some weight is useful for that - even if not always essential)
Yes, yes, yes.
12.   Both Hull and Deck solid fibreglass (no cores!) - Wood or Steel if you like (and understand) those.
Well built hull and deck, but deck is cored.
13.   Capacity to add an o/b on the stern (at least for port entry and exit) if main engine goes pop and funds not immediately available to sort. In an ideal world I would say o/b all the time, but 27 to 30 getting outside o/b power.
I suppose you could hang an o/b off the transom, but it would have to be a long shaft. Center of taffrail is 31 inches off the water.
14.   A bow roller and Windlass (appreciate that can be added later - but a PITA and costly to retrofit).
Bow roller yes, although not the original setup. Windlass space, not really.
15.   Decent Anchor Chain stowage.
Stock locker holds 50' of 3/8" chain and 400' of 1/2" 3-strand rode with room to spare.

[Godot]

I've been thinking more on this and I think I have a better grasp of what you are looking for. I should have seen it right away because you and I appear to be on parallel paths, and more or less the same age. The design brief is not for A boat, it is for THE boat. A live-aboard boat, as well as a cruising boat, that will hopefully be with you well into advanced age. A boat that allows socializing. A boat that won't break the bank. Me too, me too, me too!

Here's my attempt at a ten points list...

1. Handleable. Small enough to not be a hassle handling, especially at dock. Sailfar sized boats work. I think I'd be willing to go up to 32', or maybe a notch higher depending on the boat. Shallowish draft (say under 5') should allow it to go most places. I'm guessing on displacement as I really don't have a good feel for it; but let's say no more 10-12,000 pounds.

2. Livable. So it must have heat (unless a permanent move to warmer climes is in the plans), head, stove, cold storage (at least an ice box, but an Engle or other fridge would be a bonus), and enough drawers, shelves, or closets to put away a weeks worth of clothes and the miscellaneous accessories that civilized life requires without having to live permanently out of a suitcase.

3. Entertainable. Enough sitting and lounging room for friends and (hopefully) lovers without feeling too cramped. I think perhaps the typical two settee salon style with a fold down table would make more sense. As much as I like my dinette on one side, galley on the other arrangement, it does have some limitations. The galley would most likely be aft. Also, the head would be enclosed. There's a reason we all don't have toilets in our living rooms.

4. Sleepable. Two separate sleeping areas. Be they settee and v-berth, two settees, or hammocks swinging from the rafters (hard to picture without someone named Hornblower or Aubrey on board). Some arrangement for a double bunk would make any hope of a love life more realistic. At least one GOOD offshore sleeping bunk. Two is better; but falls second to other living considerations.

5. Stowagable. Water tankage. Food, tool, and spare parts stowage. And even a little room for a knick knack or two. E-book readers are allowing for less book stowage; but some books just need to be of the dead tree variety.

6. Navigable. Some arrangement for a chart table. It may not be a separate one use table; but there should be some flat space somewhere to spread a chart out. With a nearby place to store charts and nav tools and a GPS or something(I don't think I'd ever feel comfortable going electronic only).

7. Motorable. I don't mind an old, run out motor. Provided the price reflects it. I think I'd take that opportunity to switch to electric drive, or if talked out of that, a new diesel that will last, hopefully, a couple of decades.  Actually, diesel might make more sense if I were to go the diesel fired heater route...plenty of time to think about that later.

8. Cruisable. A design that can take off to far off ports. Perhaps it doesn't have to be the ultimate voyager, but rounding the globe via the trade wind route during appropriate seasons should be something that would be a reasonable mission plan, just in case the stars line up properly to allow such a trip.

9. Admirable. darn, but it would be nice if she looked good. We are talking about this being THE boat. It's easier to love the Prom Queen than the homely waif. That doesn't mean lots of teak trim. I'm too lazy for that.

10. Affordable. This can open up a whole new discussion. Given the parameters of a boat that is also a home, I think it is reasonable to boost the amount of money that is considered affordable over what would be purchased as a weekend play thing. Still, I don't know about you; but I'm not exactly flush with cash. I DO think I can save up $20,000 or a little more over a year or two if I don't mind slumming for awhile in a cheap-ass boat that doesn't necessarily meet all the above criteria. I don't like the idea of a boat loan. And I don't like the idea of buying the "biggest boat you can afford." And while I'm fine with tired boats that need updating, I don't think this is the time to get something that needs a complete multi-year refit to be considered seaworthy. Little projects at a time while saving money (and still living aboard and frequently sailing) are quite acceptable, and likely would eventually become the nature of things anyhow, no matter how new and well equipped a boat is.

How's that?

[David_Old_Jersey]

I see diesels fitting well into 30ft+ boats depending on design, but its hard to cram one of those boys into a smaller boat.

Lol!  - some installations can be a living nightmare, and that in port to service items let alone bouncing around at sea  >:( Not to say all like that, but when buying useful to locate the important bits and then work out how you access them (if owner around useful to ask him - and if he responds by saying something along the lines of "I know there is an engine around here somewhere".....then that tells you how the routine maintanence has (not) gone.

[David_Old_Jersey]

3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!)
Opposing settees with lee cloths.

That is also my preferred layout - and is therefore what I have.

My Forepeak is also the head and stowage......the seperate sleeping area is covered by the Aft Cabin (only an in port place - and on mine is actually nowadays a walk in locker! - albeit only sittting headroom, and of course no walk through).....I much prefer sleeping in the Saloon (ensuite and with a nearby kettle  ;D).......but I have no +2 at the moment  :(.........but I travel in hope  8) (well, I wll do when I get away from the dock!).

[David_Old_Jersey]

The design brief is not for A boat, it is for THE boat. A live-aboard boat, as well as a cruising boat, that will hopefully be with you well into advanced age. A boat that allows socializing. A boat that won't break the bank. Me too, me too, me too!

THE Boat? - yes!.....and............no!

I guess what I am getting at (this is a learning curve for me as well!) is a boat that could be THE Boat (for all the things you describe - in the style that works for "you" and on a budget "you" are likely to have), but is not neccessarily so. More about that if the ambitions as described are important (even if only as dream that may or may not ever happen - but feeding dreams does serve a purpose) then makes sense to acquire a boat (and then lavish her with TLC  :)) that could be THE Boat, even if to acheive that status takes a few years.......rather than realising down the road that what you have bought can never be THE Boat, simply from her design.

Not to say that anyone needs to buy THE Boat (whether or not also a boat that can go far and wide for extended periods) either from the getgo or even at all! (indeed likely doing so will involve compromises elsewhere). Just IMO useful for folks to consider the pros and and cons of each approach....ideally in advance of parting with hard earned cash (purchase and TLC / shiney stuff over several years).

Obviously with Sailfar having it's basis as smaller boats going far I am conscious of not trying to say that "Got to have a big boat" or any boat must have this or that (feature or equipment) - more the case of highlighting things that will likely (but not neccessarily) become more important as dreams grow - or folk simply get a bit older (at 18 could likely live in a Canoe for a year!).

[Oldrig]

Here's how my Cape Dory 25D rates.

1.   27 to 30 foot (I like smaller, but bigger is (usually) more comfortable at sea and more spacious in port....maybe not so important now, but in 10 or 20 years?). [/quote]
Nope. I'm only 25' LOA -- still she's pretty close to right for me.

2.   Full Standing Headroom at least near the hatch (and over the galley if not there) - ideally throughout the saloon, but if not then full sitting headroom, including in the principal bunks.
Yep. Just about everywhere for a short guy like me.

3.   At least 2 Sea Berths, ideally in the Saloon for easy access (without gymnastics!)
Could use the quarter berth, except that it's become a storage shed. Will add lee cloths to the two settee berths.

4.   A separate heads compartment (and not under a bunk)
Got that in spades, but that means no v-berth.

5.   At least capacity to create a double berth - for in port sleeping or "entertainment"  ;D.
Starboard settee pulls out to make a double. It's a pain, but works well for "entertainment."

6.   A separate (in port) sleeping area (from the Saloon).
Nope. See item #4 above.

7.   Two (under deck) people areas (i.e. separate forecabin and saloon)
Not really, unless you count the forward compartment--which is really the "bathroom," to use my wife's term.

8.   A decent sized galley area (space for a full sized cooker (even if not fitted), a Fridge / Freezer, a plumbed in sink and food preparation space - even if including saloon table and / or the Nav Area (if any) - plus storage space.........even at the price of a dedicated chart / nav area)
"Decent sized" is relative. I've got an icebox, a two-burner cooker (plus a "swing" stove). It works, more or less.

9.   Saloon lounging area for at least 2 persons.
Yes. Will even seat up to 4 comfortably.

10.   Room for 2 to lounge (flat out!) on deck, ideally both in the cockpit
Yes. And, if I fold up the tiller, the dining table fits into the aft part of cockpit.

11.   A seakindly hull (for me that is a boat that does not require constant attention to keep heading in the same direction - including when the wind / sea pipes up, a decent bit of keel and some weight is useful for that - even if not always essential)
She's an Alberg ... need I say more?

12.   Both Hull and Deck solid fibreglass (no cores!) - Wood or Steel if you like (and understand) those.
Respectfully disagree here. Decks are cored.

13.   Capacity to add an o/b on the stern (at least for port entry and exit) if main engine goes pop and funds not immediately available to sort. In an ideal world I would say o/b all the time, but 27 to 30 getting outside o/b power.
I've got a miniscule inboard diesel. Boat is small enough for an o/b to work. I don't have a mount at this time.

14.   A bow roller and Windlass (appreciate that can be added later - but a PITA and costly to retrofit).
No windlass, but do have a bow roller.

15.   Decent Anchor Chain stowage.
Got a nice chain/rode locker.

--Joe

[Sunset]

First I agree with about everything said so far.
I know a couple that has only been coastal cruising for two years now, and they put it this way to me. Have a nice enclosed head with a shower, a nice custom made mattress and a reasonable galley. If you can get clean and some good comfortable sleep with a good meal you can put up with most any other short comings the boat has. ;D

Scott