Windlass or not

[Sunset]

As some of you know we are building a 28 foot boat. I have been wondering if I'll need a windlass for the ground tackle? I see boats with all chain and some with a boat lengths of chain and the rest three strand. I am planning to have an anchor spirit and thought of having two anchors ready to go, one with three strand and some chain and the other with all chain. But I don't have any experience pulling anchors in for this size boat.
Some advice from you folks that's been doing this for awhile would be appreciated.

[Captain Smollett]

Personally, I don't think so.

I hand-haul the 35 lb Manson and 60 ft of chain (about 90 lb total, if picking it all up at once) on my Alberg 30.

This is a personal choice, though.

If you only need mechanical assistance occasionally, but not always, you can always lead a messenger line to a sheet winch.  It's more hassle than a windlass, but it works.  I've done this when pulling anchors that had set deeply over 18 months of being anchored.

Two things that do help: a roller and a chain pawl.

If I ever did get a windlass, it would absolutely be a manual one.

[Michael Homsany]

A windlass is one piece of safety gear I've learned to always have.

The issue isn't picking up the gear once, but more than once.

On my old H-28 (no windlass), I had a 35# plough, and 200' of 3/8 chain.  At dusk, I tried to anchor in Cook's Bay (Moorea), a deep anchorage, and the anchor didn't bite.  Pulled and reset, no bite (now pitch black, no stars, heavy overcast, and could hear the water hitting on the shore).  Twice more, no luck.

By then I was utterly flogged.  Spent all night doing anchor watch, luckily we didn't drag, but even as a very fit 30-something, I didn't have enough starch left in me to do it a fifth time.

On the current boat, with 300' of the stuff and a 30kg anchor, I think I could get it up once, but if something happened to me, my wife would be utterly stuffed.

[David_Old_Jersey]

I don't think "neccessary" but IMO firmly in the category of very nice / useful to have.

As you are building the boat I would certainly add the capacity to have one (by including the re-inforcement neccessary) = even if you only fit at a later date on the basis that will be a far easier install with some pre-planning.

[CharlieJ]

On my 35 foot tri, with a 35 pound plow and 100 feet of 5/16 chain, I had no problems hauling by hand.. I was in my 40s.

On Tehani (7000+ pounds loaded) with a 22 pound Bruce and 75 feet of 1/4 G4, I always hauled by hand.. So did Laura and she's 5'2" and maybe 110 pounds.

On Necessity with a 16 pound Bruce and 22 feet of 5/16 chain, I haul by hand

I'm NOT in my 40's anymore ::)

For use on the US East coast, Gulf coast and Bahama's,  I see no need for a windlass
on that boat.

[Sunset]

It seems to me all good points. I could pull my small 14 lb danforth with 20 feet of chain on my Belhaven 19 easily. But I have a back that goes out without notice >:(. But I never installed an anchor roller on the bow where I could stand back and let the roller help with the load. I always stood on the bow in a bad position hanging over trying to keep the anchor off the side of the boat, which would put a strain on my lower back.
I can see how with a nice spirit and roller even a heavier anchor could be easier than what I was doing.
Your probably right about anchoring in those locations Charlie. I'll probably not venture to much farther other than BVI and USVI. When I helped my brother bring is trawler down we anchored 5 nights and were never in more than 8 feet of water. I hated using his windlass but he had a 50 lb plow and a bunch of God heavy chain so us old men had no choice.
It would be nice not to have to go to the expense and trouble of a windlass but I think its smart to do as mentioned above and build in the necessary reinforcements and run wiring just in case I see the need later for one.

Thanks for your time and experience's.

[CharlieJ]

Couple of additional points-

The bow roller and some sort of  platform is almost a requirement to me. On both Tehani and Necessity, I can even sit on the forward edge of the cabin and haul anchor in, instead of standing up front.

Another reason I don't want a windlass, particularly on the east coast and here on the Texas coast, is it puts the chain straight down the pipe into the locker. And in many many areas, that chain will come up totally covered in a thick gooey mud, which will wind up in your anchor locker, and stink!!!! I'd much rather haul it onto the deck, wash it down with buckets of water, which bothers my back worse than hauling the anchor by the way, and then stow it after it dries a bit.

But unless you can manage a wash down hose, that's a fact of life.

Now in coral sand waters, it would be different, and it's always a pleasure to haul a clean chain inboard ;D

Another point- In North Florida, Georgia, South Carolina and into North Carolina, you best be SURE you are in at least enough to float the boat at low tide- If you anchor in 6 feet at high tide, you will most assuredly be aground at low- cause the tides in that area run 5-9 feet, depending on where you are. With Tehani's 3'6" draft, I always looked for 15 feet at high tide, and preferred around 18 feet.

If I can make it work, here's a pic of Necessity's bow and anchor roller. Tehani's is virtually identical. Those are 10 inch cleats by the way. Tehani's are also, only they are bronze

[Sunset]

Heres a pic of my first trip to ten thousand islands. The M26 was a veteran but said he slept better hard aground ;D

[Sunset]

I know about the stink, the Ohio river muck that comes up with the anchor is bad also. The anchor locker is going to drain out the side of the hull and not into the bilge like most do. I will have a bilge pump back where the so called drip-less stuffing box is in a small area, hope to have a dry bilge. ??? I always thought and may not be right, that a bilge with any amount of water has only got two ways out. To be pumped and no pump will get it all or evaporate through the interior and cause all sorts of issues.

[Captain Smollett]

hope to have a dry bilge. ??? I always thought and may not be right, that a bilge with any amount of water has only got two ways out. To be pumped and no pump will get it all or evaporate through the interior and cause all sorts of issues.

Please forgive me if I sound like a 'naysayer;' that's not my intent.

A perfectly dry bilge might be like tilting at windmills.  Cruising, a boat will get water in the bilge...condensation, rain, drippy wet clothing, etc.

Maybe I'm way off base (would not be surprising), but worrying over a 'dry bilge' seems to me like one of those things that is not based in "the real world."

The evaporation you get from what the pump won't get out will be small potatoes compared to condensation from sleeping aboard on a cool evening, the humidity and rain.

At least that's my observation...

[marujo_sortudo]

On the subject of windlasses, I totally agree with the advice to make sure that installing a windlass later is a possibility (via layout, necessary reinforcements, etc.)  Good option to have.

My anchoring system here is different than most in that there is only about 12' of chain each on my primary and secondary rodes.  This is a joy to haul up my hand.  I do have a manual windlass up front (which is basically a single-speed, non-self-tailing winch.)  I only use this when the anchor is well buried in, or in a substantial blow/current.  In both these cases, I could probably substitute its presence with some motoring and or leading a line back to a jib winch.

Regarding the bilge, I like my bilge kept clean and covered with an inch or two of salt water.  Wooden boats love salt water (preservative) and hate fresh water (rot habitat.)  So while I try and keep fresh water falling into the bilge close to zero, I'm happy to have salt water from the shaft seal or minor leaks elsewhere.  I have a hard time imagining a boat with a completely dry bilge, as I've never seen one...   ;D

[Sunset]

I can see condensation as being the main down fall of having a dry bilge. There's just no good way to insulate a bilge. Unless its foam core composite construction. The rudder will have a shaft tube to the cockpit sole.The anchor well will be drained through the side of the hull. There will be a containment box with a bilge pump in it around the so called dripless shaft seal. So I can see the main culprits on this boat as being water leaks from hoses or tanks, other than condensation. I do plan to have the bilge heavy glassed, in preparation for a wet environment with a large pump. The designer told me it was possible to have a dry bilge with this type of construction and that will be the goal. But I know as boats age things just happen.
Anyway its being designed with that goal in mind, time will tell how that works out. ;) I to, have never seen a completely dry bilge, but a fellow has to have some lofty dreams besides sailing off into the sunset. :) :)

[Cruiser2B]

I picked up a Lofans Manual and 85ft of 5/16 chain off craiglist for 200.00. James baldwin has a nice build up on how to rebuild it. It works just fine but I figured since its not installed yet I would disassemble and clean it. I am upgrading our anchor this year to a 35 Delta. I am capable of hauling it up without a windlass but for the money and ease of getting anchor up especially for the wife....why not!



www.svsalacia.blogspot.com

[David_Old_Jersey]

I grew up with a Father who was always fighting a battle in his bilges........

......against dust  ;D

and he had wooden boats! (only in his old age did he come accross to the "dark side" of GRP!).

Not quite as fussy with the GRP boat (a motorboat) - but on some things he still is - anyone want to guess how old the engines are?





and, no, they have never been repainted. and in real life they look as good as in the pictures - if not better!

[Frank]

They certainly look like new borns...or close, but I assume from your wording they have a few years on them. So...7?

[David_Old_Jersey]

They certainly look like new borns...or close, but I assume from your wording they have a few years on them. So...7?

nope  :P

[marujo_sortudo]

Well, given your statements, I'll guess an unlikely 25 years.  Seems possible for the dusty bilge with a committed cleaner...

[David_Old_Jersey]

If he still has the boat in another 10 years - they will still look like that.......so presently 15 years old (Annual servicing / minor works & lots of TLC by father - major stuff by dealer, recently had the timing belts changed - just in case).

The engines (with boat attached!) have ranged from Southern Brittany up to Paris  - so not simply a dock queen!


BTW boat built in 1978 - engines installed after a couple of years of ownership by father and drip feeding cash into the original pair of Mercedes  :(.