Sheet to Tiller or Windvane

[Cruiser2B]

I know there have been many dicussions on the subject of each. Has anyone here used both(not at the same time) on their boat. I am seriously considering spending the money on a windvane as it weems like the most reliable and consistant, but again I have never used either. my opinion is based solely on what i have read. I am asking this because if I can keep $3500 in the bank I would like to do so.

www.svsalacia.blogspot.com

[Captain Smollett]

I have not used both, but will offer an opinion anyway.

It does not have to be either - or.

There is nothing to stop you from making and using Sheet To Tiller gear while you shop / fit your windvane.  That way, you will have it as a back-up and will have practice using it.  For such little money, it just seems like the kind of back-up, belt-n-suspenders tool that fits well on a KISS boat.

Recall Pat Henry's comments from her book By The Grace of the Sea.  Her wind vane boat the bucket and she then relied (or tried to) on electronic autopilot, one after another after one failure after another.

She endured weeks with no real off-watch while hand steering - through the Torres Strait and it's associated major shipping lanes.

Later when she fitted sheet to tiller gear, her comment was (I'm paraphrasing): it was so simple and worked so well I'm kicking myself for not trying it sooner.

I love sheet-to-tiller steering, but will likely install a vane at some point...some day.

[Cruiser2B]

I bought myself a Norvane windvane, got a good deal on it, good thing to because it was all I had....... ;D ;D I should be picking it up this weekend. It is not 100% new, only a few months old, installed but never sailed...But Kirk Little says this is a good vane for the money..

[w00dy]

I have had a little experience now with both and can offer my 2 c; take what you can use. I currently own, have just recently rebuilt, and am learning to coax a well used Aries servo pendulum gear. My last boat was a small cutter that was set up for sheet-to-tiller rigs. I have also read and studied "Self Steering for Sailing Craft" by John Letcher, which is the most comprehensive book on the subject that I know of. http://www.amazon.com/Self-Steering-Sailing-Craft-John-Letcher/dp/0877420424 Hard to get ahold of, but perhaps you could Interlibrary Loan a copy (I let mine go with my last boat).

I second Cpt. Smollett's suggestion that you try both.  No matter what self-steering system you eventually choose, it ultimately comes down to getting various forces to balance out in the way that you want.

Windvanes are (semi) sophisticated systems that, once set up properly, allow you to conveniently manage those forces. They shouldn't be treated as a magic bullet that will allow you to ignore trim and balance. To get the best results, you will need to take into account many different factors that will affect the way your boat moves and take pains to ensure that your setup is free of friction and perfectly symmetrical/balanced.

Sheet to tiller rigs are a step up from steering by sail and tiller balance alone. They allow simple mechanical feedback and can be set up in quite a few different ways, depending on your boat's rig and your point of sail. While less convenient than a windvane setup, they are more versatile and may even out perform them on some points of sail. For instance, many servo-pendulum gears do no have enough sensitivity for downwind sailing in light air, while twin jibs with sheets led back to the rudder will stay on track in the lightest of breezes. The downside is that while simple, the different setups require much trial and error to perfect and also have to be re rigged every tack and course change.

If you have the money and the inclination to do the job right, the windvane is the obvious choice. Stick with sheet to tiller if you want to take it slow and learn as you go, or aren't ready for the commitment that doing a good job of your windvane installation will take.  The convenience and reliability of a properly set up system really is a wonderful tool for the long distance sailor, but it needs to be done right or not at all. Because I started with sheet to tiller rigs, I learned about the importance of sail trim, balance, feedback tension, friction, and how to manipulate them to make the boat do it's thing. This has really helped me deal with my janky old Aries, which my girlfriend has dubbed "Flippy". After a partial rebuild, he will do the job if all the conditions are right, but he would cause major frustration to someone who just wanted him to "work".

So, maybe what you should take from this is that while a new vane gear might be pretty expensive, saving money on a used one might not be worth the headache if she doesn't perform "like new".

Also, some of the same hardware is used for sheet to tiller rigs as windvane rigs. With a snatch block on the inner side of each cockpit coaming and a pair of opposing cam cleats mounted on the top of your tiller, you can reeve a control line from your vane gear or simply attach a bungie and a line connected to your mainsheet (read more about sheet to tiller rigs for the specifics). My Aries has a small chain and a sort of chain-hook thing to connect the control line to the tiller, which I dislike immensely as it keeps trying to pinch my fingers off.





You can see here that I removed that chain poop and just have a small piece of line tied to the tiller with a constrictor knot. To tension the line, I used a beefed up rolling hitch so that I could slack the control lines to remove them.

First chance I get, I will be going back to the cam cleats, which allow easy tensioning and removal of the control lines. Best way to go, IMHO.

Anyway, that's quite a wall of text, but to sum up, here is my advice in bulleted points:
-read "Self Steering for Sailing Craft" by John Letcher
-learn about boat balance
-set up and practice sheet to tiller
-get a windvane, preferably new, or like new
-if you get a used windvane, you not only save money, but get to practice the finer points of engineering boat balance  ;)
-since your setup is upwards/backwards compatible, you can use sheet to tiller if things break, or you want to outperform your windvane on another point of sail

Good luck!

[w00dy]

Let us know how the Norvane works out!

[Captain Smollett]

Excellent remarks, James.  Grog for that "Wall of Text."

I have never heard anyone explicitly say before that STT can outperform a vane (on certain points of sail in certain conditions), but this is a supremely important point.

Self steering is not a "done deal."  It takes fiddling and adjustment and flexibility (on the part of the skipper's thinking).  Every boat in every situation is different.

I love how your comment emphasized that the 'fiddling' with STT will only help when it's time to install a vane, that the gear is a subset and "thinking" is a subset as well.  It's not an either-or, but all part of the process.

The more I think about this post I realize it's worth more than one grog.  Later, when I can...

Thank-you so much.

[Captain Smollett]

Sheet to tiller rigs are a step up from steering by sail and tiller balance alone....The downside is that while simple ,... have to be re rigged every tack and course change.

Clarification:

Don't wind vanes also have to be re-set-up (adjusted) after a tack or other course change?  For that matter, autopilots, too?  (Though the latter may only involve a few button presses).

Admittedly, the STT gear will require more work.

But even a small course change (with respect to wind direction) will require a vane gear to be adjusted.  I've found small course changes with STT to be pretty easy, just ease or tighten the sheet control line a bit.

Bigger course changes will require total re-rigging to be sure.  No doubt the vane gear is easier on the whole, but it's not "set it and forget it."  Right?

[Cruiser2B]

Because of an untimely but necessary home AC fix( holy heck is it hot here in VA these last few days), i did not purchase the Norvane yet. If seller still has it in a few weeks i may be able to still pick it up. With that said, I am going to try Sheet to Main self steering this week. What type of blocks? Would larger blocks have less friction? I have been reading a litlle about it and it says the least amount of friction possible. I have some garhauer blocks but they are fairly large, they are ball bearing. I will give them a shot anf report back. Any input will be helpful. Gonna stop by West Marine and buy some 5/16 low stretch line. I already have about 25ft of surgical tubing.

[CharlieJ]

Here's a link to an excellent site which describes setting up STT steering. Should answer most of your questions-

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

[Norman]

Cruiser2B started this 6 years ago, Capt Smollett and wOOdy chimed in, and CharlieJ sort of finished it off.

wOOdy's comments are especially relevant today, as we read of the GGR competitors travails with their vane steering gear.  It seems that about half the boats have reported some sort of failure of their vane steering gear.  Doubtless there have been more, as some may have done repairs with out comment.  I was not aware that Peche had a vane failure until he had the additional failure of his tiller, but since I do not read french, I may have missed it.

  I have commented that it seemed that they did not have the skill, knowledge, or small bits of gear to go sheet to tiller when the vanes failed.  It is amazing to me that they do not use this simple system on a less than ideal heading while doing the necessary repairs while making good knots in the general direction of the next mark.  In addition, the boat motion would be more comfortable, and repairs would be safer to perform, compared to bare poles and wallowing wildly.

Peche just opted to stop in Capetown for repairs of his equipment due to breaking his vane, using his spare parts to repair it, then breaking his tiller, which required the same spares to repair.  Looking at the rudder on his boat, it would have been simple to install Moitessier's system to it, and leave it unused unless needed.  That system did not even need a regular tiller to fully control the boat on most points of sail and sea conditions.  That would have left Peche full freedom to cobble up the necessary parts to get his tiller functional again, and maybe even the wind vane repaired.

Robin Knox Johnson had several failure of various components of his self invented and overly complex system, and repaired each of them.  His tiller also broke, and could not be fitted back into its socket, so he lashed it to the rudder head, where it remained for the rest of the voyage.

Racing all the way around the world is not a goal for the denizens of this board, but successfully sailing short handed with reliable options for equipment failures is the important issue.  The lesson from the GGR is that even with the best vane equipment in the world, you are not assured of continuous reliable function.  Those of you making your plans and designing the dream set up for your boat need to read wOOdy's "wall of words" carefully.  Most of his words have been said in pieces by others here, as well as some rather famous authors such as the Pardy's   You should always have the skills necessary to fall back to the truly simple systems, and the trivial bits of equipment needed to create them on short notice.

The final outcome for Peche is not too relevant here, but the nature of his failure, and inability to deal with it is very much relevant for those who wish to cruise reliably on small craft.

That was a long time ago, wOOdy, but right up to date.

Norman

[Owly055]

I'm amazed at how unprepared many long distance cruisers are in terms of having the tools and materials, spares, and the skills to fix things properly.   In times past, people did not set out on long ocean voyages without these things.  A ship's blacksmith for example was a very important crew member.  Even on the relatively small boats used for rallies like the Transpac, ARC, or puddle jump some serious thought should go into having ways to repair critical systems.   Rudders and steering systems seem to be the most common serious failures people experience, with failure of standing rigging components or outright dismasting running a close second.   Having some sort of power drill, and a light weight stand so you can drill straight holes, along with fasteners, and odds and ends of metal and wood, epoxy, JB weld, spare hardware for rigging, a hammer, files, a small vice, a hack saw, wood saw(s), drill bits, roll pins and cotter pins, silicone sealer, electrical connectors, wire, fuses, cutter & stripper, etc.    Along with lots of spare cordage, turning blocks........... There should always be some sort of option.

     One of the better competitions would be one where the contestants had to deal with crisis repairs at sea with the limited resources available.   For example while racing across the Atlantic, at some point they would receive a message that they had just lost their rudder, and must remove it and run under a jury rigged rudder.    Or perhaps they are ordered to put in at the Azores while sailing eastbound across the Atlantic, and "dismasted", leaving them with what they might have in a real dismasting for the last leg to Portsmouth.... or wherever the race culminates.   At the  beginning of one of these competitions, each boat would have a more or less pre-determined kit of tools and spares, and nobody would know what sort of crisis they would face.   A simulated medical emergency, etc.   Or perhaps a crew would be airlifted to a damaged boat that "had hit a container" or had been " knocked down and swamped ".  In the latter type situations the crews would not know what they would be facing, but would know what resources were aboard and where, and of course another boat would be standing by for rescue if needed.   Just being forced to sail in rather than using a motor would be a real challenge for many sailors.   There are many potentially challenging scenarios that could be simulated, and competitions like this would be far more meaningful than mere races........ Emergencies at sea separate the men from the boys.   The abandonment of Dove II in Dec of 2016 due to the loss of a rudder for example should not have happened, costing a family their home, nor should the gunboat abandoned in the Gulf Stream due to badly damaged rudder stocks (poor design IMHO).   These are the sorts of crisis that people need to be prepared to face.  The ability to push a button and have rescue on it's way seems to be breeding a generation of people who regard calling for rescue as the first, rather than the last resort.   In the end this will hurt us all.....  In the latter example the solution may well have been extremely difficult if not impossible.  I don't mean to judge people and their choices.... survival is the number one priority in all cases.   Efficient as under hull rudders are, they are utterly unserviceable at sea.... It should be possible to jettison them in such a case and steer under a jury rig of some sort, such as a drogue and bridle.   
     For a single hander things that are an inconvenience to a crew can become a major problem.......  You really can't hand steer constantly... as in the  original example.   Single handers above others need to be the boy scouts of the sea.....  "be prepared" in every respect.

                                                                                    H.W.

[Norman]

One of he criticisms of sheet to tiller steering is the necessary less than perfect sail trim.  Some, including Moitessier, claim this is not always true, especially dead down wind with spinnaker or double jib.  This is where vanes are worst, which results in design compromises which make them more susceptible to damage.

Looking at a picture of Mark Sinclair's Aires vane steered boat shows a boat with hardly a wake, the hull design is so good, but a long stream of bubbles and turbulence behind the shaft into the water for the water immersed portion of the system.

Inefficiencies in the water are much more damaging than in the air.  A system with a small trim tab on the aft edge of the real rudder has to be much more efficient than the appendage the Aries has in the water.  Moitessier used such a system very successfully on Joshua and its predecessor, and with a keel hung rudder, the likely hood of damage is small.  With his system, it would be practical to install a second set of gudgeons either above or below the first, and build a complete rudder and trim tab with matching fittings, so that even if the stern fittings ripped out or wore out, the spare could be set in place, and sailing continue.  The complete spare rudder would be inexpensive, and take up no more room than a similar size plank.  A spare tiller would be similarly reasonable to have on board, premade.

The manufacturers of such equipment need to have a package that simply bolts on a generic boat, and that results in the sometimes critical design flaws in the overall package, and also in the mounting rube goldberg's to make them bolt on an odd variation of the standard stern.  Some of the installations on the GGR competitors boats are well near unreachable even in calm water, let alone breaking waves and high wind.

Robin Knox Johnson's was a rube as well, but all it's parts were on board, and readily accessible for repairs.  His worked poorly much of the time due to too many moving parts, but he altered and repaired many of them along the way, improving their function.  Most of his parts were simple, and he understood how they were intended to work.  Only a few could not be replicated on board.  The modern ones are nearly all highly engineered special parts, and the only way to repair a failure is to install factory spare parts, and often, that must be done in calm water of a port.

A long distance sailing race should not be a test of jury rig skills, but such skills are required in unpredictable ways.  The ocean is the source of the malfunctions, and no one may cheat and find out prior to the departure which parts will fail.

Even more so, the cruising sailor should use systems made from parts available from a simple hardware store, or replaceable by an ordinary welding shop, not a local dealer of a vane company, which may have to order parts from the factory.  Local dealers exist only in the higher price large ports, which cruisers tend to avoid much of the time, plus, the local dealer may be a different brand.

Norman

[Bubba the Pirate]

I'm intrigued by the simplicity of the freehand. Of course, it means more stuff further aft. I have a transom hung rudder so it is an option for Emma.

http://andersonboatworks.com/craftsman-services/freehand-steering-systems/

[SeaHusky]

Clever to use the stay as the main loadbearing part. I have two aft stays side by side so I can't do it that way.

[Norman]

I am not sure that split back-stays would prevent proper function.

If the vane and wheel assembly were on the tilted stay, but fully balanced, it would function similarly to a stay that was tilted only forward.

The trick would simply be making a C shaped clamp partially surrounding the rim of the wheel, and a clamp screw to fix it in place, and an attached ball joint for a link to the lever on the rudder head, also with a ball joint, the steering input would be the same.

The C clamp would be the means of changing the heading when a turn was desired, or left loose when hand steering.

The C would need a leg in to the stay, and a loop there to keep it aligned with the edge of the wheel, and prevent binding.

I personally have a preference for trim tabs on the normal rudder, rather than linkage to move the rudder itself.  Too much power is required, and the linkage is complex.

The Anderson is incredibly simple and the reef-able sail most desirable.  The sail should also be fragile, and easily replaceable, so if hit by a big wave, it will be sacrificed, and a new one installed, thus the other parts remain undamaged.  Rather than a teak frame, I think that an aluminum one [ shaped, with only short horizontal legs would be easier to replace damaged sails on.

This is the idea of Moitessier's wind vane system, similarly simple and indestructible except for the vane blade.  His were of the thin plywood from fruit crates, less than 1/8 inch thick, and he carried 12 of them on his GGR trip, and about 6 were broken.

There is a good description and diagram in his book, "The long route", if you can find it in a library or on line.

Norman

[Owly055]

It's unfortunate that Joshua Slocum didn't elaborate on the use of his "jigger"...... as he called the mizzen he added to Spray in South America.   It seems to me that the yawl should offer some good sail balance options for self steering.  It's interesting that Chichester removed the mizzen on Gypsy Moth III during the transat and replaced it with a wind vane..... which was not highly successful.

[Hondo76251]

Slocum's book was so popular because he covered his adventure, not the nuances of sailing. I too wish he would have had written the "Idiots guide to sailing solo around the world" as well!  ;D

He claimed to have crossed the Atlantic with almost no correction to the helm and was within 5 miles of his destination using lunar navigation...   I do believe there was a world of sailing knowledge lost with the Spray and her captain that we will never get back. ...

[CharlieJ]

Welcome aboard Hondo.. Glad    you made it

Slocum's other book, Voyage of the Liberdade, is a good read too.

[Norman]

Welcome, Hondo, and join the fun here.  Slocum is a favorite author, and Voyage of the Liberdade is, as Charlie says, an excellent read.  In his first book, you are quite right, it is an account of the adventure, not a "how to" book.  His crossing of the Pacific from South America is one of his long passages with "no adjustments to the helm", and accurate landfall.  At that same period, he recounts the passing low pressure systems to the south of his position, with the natural shifts of the wind as he experienced them.  Obviously, Spray kept a constant wind angle, swinging first north, then south, but averaging neutral from the intended course.  I suspect that he tinkered with the sails, especially the jigger, to get closer to the desired average, and sometimes, to reduced loading of the main and jib in increased winds.  The daily fixes would cause him to bias those trims to get closer to the desired track, resulting in his landfall accuracy.  Compass error changes as you cross the ocean, plus, even a one degree error in choosing the initial heading would completely miss his destination.  Adjustments of some kind would have been critical to his success.  His point was that he did not sit at the wheel day and night, the Spray went forward in a stable manner, and he did as he pleased with abundant free time, eat well cooked meals, and  did the constant chores that keep a vessel working properly.  Failure to maintain results in failure of equipment at times of stress.  After rounding Cape Horn, he stopped to build the jigger, and also to sew a new main sail, to be better prepared for the long passage in unpredictable winds.

I have read Spay several times, and learned much more each time.

His determination to succeed no matter what befell him led him to take risks that would not be acceptable today, unless solo, as you will find if you read Liberdade, but that is what was required to succeed in the sailing profession then.  Lesser men failed in the business, or lost their ships.

Norman

[Hondo76251]

Howdy! Didn't quite make the chat the other night, working the cows went late. Better late than never!

All men die. Not all men truly live. Slocum lived. There is a lesson in that I think our modern world could really take to heart... 

But enough about the meaning of life, what about this sheet to tiller steering?  ;D

I'm a much better armchair captain than I am in my boat but I've done a lot of reading on boat balance. I have a background in Aviation and that makes me more interested in "weight and balance" for boats. The Spray was fascinating to me because she seemed to "self steer" so well. Its a feat that has been repeated by many Spray replicas so no doubt Slocum wasn't embellishing the story. How else would you be able to sail solo around the world if the boat didn't trim up well?

All boats are a compromise. Sloops today are most popular because they do all points of sail reasonably well and are an easy sail plan to manage. I understand that a sloop tends to point better than a Ketch/Yawl as well. It seems to me that they are also hard to keep in balance in relation to the wind. It looks like they rely much more heavily on rudder input to keep the boat on the desired heading/wind angle. Complicated contraptions have to be rigged to constantly work the rudder to keep the boat sailing. Complicated never works as well as simple. The Spray was converted to a Yawl to balance her and it worked infinitely better than any rub Goldberg set up could have.

With that theory in mind, I've considered the way my boat tends to balance. I have to run a reef in my main in almost anything above the lightest air. I can easily sail without doing it, but I start to get some weather helm and I've found that always being on the rudder is a lot slower than taking a reef in the main. If I'm able to run the Genoa it helps a little but not as much as you'd think. My Genoa is a 150 so its force seems to be generated somewhat more aft than the working Jib.

I'm seriously considering adding a bow sprit so I can be somewhat of a cutter or, probably more accurately, a "Staysail Sloop." I think that If I could run two smaller fore sails I'd be able to get better balance. This might not be as safe as a boat that wants to round up all the time, but I think the risk would outweigh the drawback if it worked even a little.

As I'm set up now, I'd love to try a sheet to tiller system but with the amount of constant input my tiller requires (partly due to the 18+" of play and a poor design) there is no way I could get it dialed in. My re-fit plans this winter do include a new rudder, but even then I'm not sure its enough.

If I had the sail's balanced better, wouldn't the sheet to tiller setup work even better?