Saftey Harness

Headcase · July 05, 2012, 04:03:55 PM

Afternoon folks!

Not falling off the boat is a good thing. I was wondering if any of you had or knew of others that had used something more like a Climbers or industrial safety harness onboard. And if not why it wouldn't be a good idea. I was thinking a good mountain-climbing harness would not only be plenty strong enough, but might work as a bosun's chair as well. And dual and triple purpose things are good on small boats.

ntica · July 05, 2012, 04:40:13 PM

more expensive than Boat-harness. otherwise they will probably work fine!

Oldrig · July 05, 2012, 05:30:48 PM

I'd go with an inflatable lifejacket/harness. It covers two bases at once. (I was going to say "kills two birds with one stone," but that cliche seemed inappropriate. :))

--Joe

w00dy · July 05, 2012, 05:44:06 PM

I'm not sure that using your climbing harness for anything but going aloft would be a good idea. They're definitely strong enough to keep you attached to the boat, but the crucial difference is where they attach to (and how the support) your body. Boat harnesses attach to the torso/chest area, while climbing harnesses wrap around your waist and legs.

Imagine being pulled by the center of your body at 6 kts through the water. Would you remain upright with your head out of the water? Would you spin uncontrollably? Would both your upper and lower body be bent backwards to the point of breaking?

Now imagine being pulled by your chest. What I see happening is your body naturally orienting itself with the head and arms forward and the legs behind. Maybe you're upside down and backwards, but at least your head is close to the surface. With some effort, perhaps you are able to control your orientation and can keep your legs underneath you and face forward. More likely, it is really rough and you are lucky to be able to gasp for breaths of air as you are pulled through wave after wave. Hopefully, your sailing partner is already slowing the boat down to help you aboard. If you are alone with a windvane steering you ahead blindly, good luck, you're going to need it.

But perhaps you've rigged a trip line for your windvane, and your swim ladder is thoughtfully deployed, ready for use. You climb back aboard, cold, wet, and chastened by your brush with the ocean. You realize that your safety harness is like a seat belt. It can save your life, but won't guarantee it. Best as a last line of defense.

I bring my rock harness every time I go sailing, because they're much easier to climb with than your average bosun's chair. If you're going to be aloft for a while though, I'd definitely recommend the bosun's chair, unless your harness is a lot more comfortable than mine is ;)

w00dy · July 06, 2012, 04:54:18 PM

Then again, I could be completely wrong about the harness. I have never been pulled through the water by either and so can't say with certainty what will happen. Perhaps a test is in order...

Captain Smollett · July 06, 2012, 05:35:17 PM

Quote from: jmwoodring on July 06, 2012, 04:54:18 PM

Then again, I could be completely wrong about the harness. I have never been pulled through the water by either and so can't say with certainty what will happen. Perhaps a test is in order...

I don't think you are wrong. Your answer was the first thing I thought when I read the question as well.

I remember reading this somewhere, but don't recall where...a caution to NOT use a climbing harness as a sailing harness for exactly the reason you outline.

Headcase · July 06, 2012, 06:14:52 PM

Sounds like it's an idea that heads straight for the circular file then. And I'd rather ask a stupid question that do something stupid. Thanks for the advice guys.

w00dy · July 06, 2012, 06:53:38 PM

I have often wondered about what would happen if you fell off and were dragged by your harness.

For instance, if I fell off anywhere forward on the boat, could I be dragged underneath the hull? If that were the case, would it be better to have an especially long harness, to ensure falling clear of the boat, or an extra short one? Also, what sort of forces are at play from a hard fall? When rock climbing, dynamic ropes are used to ensure maximum shock absorption. It is recommended to replace your rope after several hard falls. I imagine nylon to be a bit more durable, but what size lines would be appropriate?

Finally, if you are dragged through the water and not wearing a life vest, will your head stay above water anyway? What if there are significantly high waves? I am imagining the fishing lures that I trail behind the boat, which is not so reassuring.

Has it ever happened to anyone here? What is your experience with this subject?

Equator · July 06, 2012, 07:03:12 PM

Am I wrong in my assumption that the harness's primary goal is to keep me from going overboard? I just figured that the tethers were short enough.

As a single handed sailor I don't relish the idea of trying to climb hand over hand up the webbing and then haul myself back onto a sailboat moving at 5 knots.

I'd also be interested to hear actual experiences with this.

(edited to add)

I just did a search for Sailing Tether Towing Test and came up with this among others...
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/learning-sail-articles/18834-safety-harnesses-tethers.html
Their results were similar to hat I found in other tests online. Not very comforting.

I hope it's ok to post a link to there.

Pete

Godot · July 06, 2012, 07:39:34 PM

It would be ideal if the harness would keep you on the boat. However, given how narrow the typical monohull is (especially is Sailfar sizes), I don't see anyway to keep your harness short enough to accomplish that.

I figure if I fall overboard, things are pretty dire. If I have competent crew, and I seldom do, they could turn around and hopefully get me. If I have at least slightly competent crew (smart enough to drop the sails or kill the engine), then I can probably be dragged aboard if I'm wearing a harness and haven't disappeared too far astern. Solo? I hate to think what might happen; but I'm starting to consider carrying a portable VHF and my SPOT with me. I might have a chance if I can keep from drowning. Or maybe an adrenalin boost, or good luck (to go with the exceptional bad of swimming when I'm supposed to be sailing) will allow self rescue.

Hopefully I (and you too) never have to test any of these scenarios. The odds just don't seem all that favorable.

Headcase · July 06, 2012, 08:02:13 PM

@JMWoodring
I've thought about it as well. I can't say I've thought of many ways it could end well. I know from working on Cruise Liners that above @15 knots you can well get sucked into the ships screws. Of course falling in from above deck seven it's a moot point because you're at least unconscious if not dead already. I can't see having a longer tether helping you to fall further. And too short a one may well keep you banging against the hull ? As far as the whammy factor of the fall I would think that most of it would be due to the forces that put you over board. Way more variables than it takes to make my brain hurt.

As to being dragged through the water, I have no clue. Might be up for a controlled experiment or three some time. With appropriate safety measures. But not with fishing lures in the mix!

@Equator
A harness is one thing that will help lessen the odd of going overboard. One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself helps too. Mid-chest high lifelines are a good thing as well. Although rarely practical. It's one of those places where it would be hard for me to have too much redundancy. As another singlehander, I just see too many bad things coming of violating the "Stay on the Effing boat" rule. But my view is that much of safety all around is just trying to avoid being aware of what you are doing and planning so as to avoid as much grief as possible.

@Godot
Yeah, I figure if I fall overboard and can't wade to shore it's gonna be bad. If I can't see land I'm likely dead.

I don't worry so much about "falling" as I do being knocked off the boat. Hence looking for a really stout way to counter such.

w00dy · July 07, 2012, 01:06:17 AM

On my most recent trip, I was always wary about the hardware, lifelines, handholds, etc that I was trusting my life to. We suffered several breakages on the way of (we assumed) sturdy hardware (engine mounts, tiller, reefing hardware) and I was always waiting for the lifelines to part at the wrong moment or the wooden platform in the bowsprit to break out from underneath me. Until I can trust the boat 100%, we'll be conducting repeated man overboard drills! :-\

Thanks for the link to the sailnet article. It gave a good summary, but the actual study itself contains some very interesting details. Here is the link, in PDF format
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/Safety+At+Sea+Studies.pdf

For instance, I usually clip in on the windward side of the boat, but the researchers determined that it was better to be dragged on the leeward side, because being sheltered from the waves made it easier to breathe. Presumably heeled, the leeward side would have less free board to climb, though the study suggested that stopping the boat was imperative as none of the participants was able to pull themselves aboard without help.

There's a lot more. Read the study.

-Here is the linke, in PDF format.
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/Safety+At+Sea+Studies.pdf

Godot · July 07, 2012, 08:15:16 AM

FWIW, I do wear a harness. I'm not exactly a fatalist, and I've read enough sailing stories to know that sailors have been sent overboard and have self rescued. I just hope I never have to try it myself.

Equator · July 07, 2012, 10:47:59 AM

I intend to wear one whenever I venture out offshore. I'd feel really dumb watching my boat sail happily off towards Spain without me. ;D

In my little corner of the ICW I can always wade ashore as long as I can dog paddle the 20 feet out of the channel.

Happy and safe sailign everyone,
Pete

Headcase · July 07, 2012, 11:26:56 AM

Some definite food for thought. And the number of tethers that didn't do so well is a bit unsettling. Lots of head scratching to do on this.

Michael Homsany · July 08, 2012, 04:30:01 PM

I've always sailed double-handed, but here's my thoughts:

As a non-swimmer, I'm a lot more paranoid about staying on the boat than most swimmers. We also don't have a cockpit per se, but a footwell.

On deck, I'll wear an inflatable harness, but I will only tether on when I'm in the 'cockpit', not when I go forward.

Here's the logic: When I go forward, I'm mentally and physically on "100% full emergency power". With how we have the boat rigged, a tether getting tangled is a high probability, and falling overboard clearing the tangle is a very real possibility.

When I'm in the 'cockpit', I'm generally very relaxed and unwary, and often solo, as my wife is below. This is where I think I'm most vulnerable to being swept over by a rogue quartering wave, and not being observed (our rule is never to leave the cockpit without all hands on deck) and when I'm not prepared for disaster to happen is when it will happen, so I tether on with a short tether.

Another way to put this is, when my wife isn't around, she makes sure that I'm on a short leash! :)

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Saftey Harness