Seeker, a Bayfield 29

[marujo_sortudo]

That's great to hear!

One of the tricks that helps in small spaces with an inboard engine, if your prop washes against your rudder, is to put the rudder hard over when you don't have any way on and give some good rpms in forward gear.  The prop wash deflects off the rudder and acts a bit like a stern thruster imparting a good bit of sideways motion.

[Capt. Tony]

Good for you, Adam!  I some how missed this thread and just read through it with the envy meter pegged ;D The Bayfield 29 is on my list of highly coveted boats and they don't just show up on every corner either.  There is a couple of videos on you tube I watched by a lady named Rebecca Burg who lives on her Bayfield 29.  Her website is www.artoffshore.com and it is apparent she loves her boat and lifestyle.  So do I!
Hey, if it turns out this boat isn't what you're hoping, let's talk ;D

[Captain Smollett]

I'm liking the Bayfield, I really am!

Congrats!  Glad to hear you are enjoying the new boat.

I'm not a fan of the propane instant water heater. It doesn't seem to work as well as it should, and I really don't like the propane tee fitting under the quarter berth. I think I'll just pull the thing out. Maybe I'll install an electric heater. The boat is raw water cooled, so I'm not sure what would be involved in putting in a heat exchanger. Probably more effort than it's worth. I wouldn't bother; but convenient hot water seems like a good idea for a dockside liveaboard. I may change my mind if the bank account dips too low or if I get particularly lazy. I'm just not that excited about it.

We, as a family of four, lived aboard 3 years without heated running water (or any kind of hot water instantly available).  All heating of water was done on the stove or via solar (a Sun Shower bag).

In my experience, there is absolutely no reason a dedicated water heating unit is needed, or even reduces misery all that much.  Yes, there was probably one or two days in that three years I wished I did not have heat water as a separate step, but very rare that it even came to mind.

The gain in simplicity of the boat and her systems as well as an increased "connection" to the day to day chores (yes, a tiny bit more work) more than made up for the "cost" on the old cost-benefit continuum...for us at least.

I mention this just to emphasize that 'home conveniences' like available hot water do not scale the same on a boat as they do in a house.  A house as the room and "infrastructure" to pull it off; a boat...VERY MUCH less so.

The insurance company (BoatUS) has pretty much decided to mandate all the "nice to have" recommendations from the surveyor and is requiring an action plan. They can be a pain in the butt.

I find the BoatUS insurance program to be ungodly expensive and far too restricting in how I can use my boat.  Have you shopped for insurance?

Full coverage on my boat through my auto carrier (Allstate in my case) is about 1/10 what BoatUS wanted...and BoatUS had "use restrictions" like cannot be in Florida certain months, yadda yadda that the other did not provide.

I'm really pleased. I'm still crying a little bit over the bite to the bank account; but I really believe this was a good decision.

Indeed.  How many houses can you buy for what you paid for that boat?  Now, how many of those homes are mobile, and can take you on the adventures on which that boat can take you?  I'm guessing "zero" is the answer to both questions.

It's an investment...not in a boat that can be resold as a profit, but in your life.   ;)

[Godot]

In my experience, there is absolutely no reason a dedicated water heating unit is needed, or even reduces misery all that much.  Yes, there was probably one or two days in that three years I wished I did not have heat water as a separate step, but very rare that it even came to mind.

That is why I'm not that excited about it. I think I'll make an effort at understanding the current propane driven heater. If I can get it to work adequately, then I'll keep it. If I can't, I'll probably go without for awhile and see how it works for me. Not having a water heater would reduce any inclination to use the shower. If I don't use the shower I won't have to worry about installing a sump and pump (right now it drains directly into the bilge, which does not strike me as being a good thing). If I find I miss the hot water at the tap (it's a pressurized system), I can always install a new heater later.

I find the BoatUS insurance program to be ungodly expensive and far too restricting in how I can use my boat.  Have you shopped for insurance?

Full coverage on my boat through my auto carrier (Allstate in my case) is about 1/10 what BoatUS wanted...and BoatUS had "use restrictions" like cannot be in Florida certain months, yadda yadda that the other did not provide.

I was under the impression that all the auto carriers had liveaboard restrictions. Since that is my eventual goal once the house is taken care of I went with BoatUS as they don't appear to have the same restriction. They don't want me south of Norfolk, VA between June 1st and November 1st, though.

Indeed.  How many houses can you buy for what you paid for that boat?  Now, how many of those homes are mobile, and can take you on the adventures on which that boat can take you?  I'm guessing "zero" is the answer to both questions.

It's an investment...not in a boat that can be resold as a profit, but in your life.   ;)

That's pretty much how I look at it. It just hurts to empty the bank account so soon after finally putting something in it. Money has been an issue for several years, now. It's hard to let it go.

On the other hand, my confidence in the economy is not terribly high. Keeping some net worth in a hard asset makes a lot of sense to me. Barring acts of God, carelessness, or exceptional bad luck, I should always have a home. And one that's mobile as well. Heck, if I lose my job tomorrow that only means I head south even earlier than planned (even if I have to live on rice and beans).

[Frank]

Congrats.... nice cruiser for sure!!!

[Captain Smollett]

I was under the impression that all the auto carriers had liveaboard restrictions. Since that is my eventual goal once the house is taken care of I went with BoatUS as they don't appear to have the same restriction. They don't want me south of Norfolk, VA between June 1st and November 1st, though.

Hmmm...ours, Allstate, provided coverage of our boats without any asking of stuff like that.  All they wanted was HIN so they could do a records check (and no doubt blue book check).

Our little boat has full coverage, but the A-30 does not (though we do have a policy on her).  However, they DO know we were liveaboards when we got the policy, because the agent, one of his assistants and I talked at length about living on a boat the day I got the policy.

It never phased them, they did not say anything about restrictions for using the boat in that manner, and not one single word about when/where we can use the boat(s) under their coverage.

I'd NEVER let an insurance company tell me where to use the boat and when.  That was a deal breaker (moreso than the cost) for me using BoatUS...and I told them so.

Self-insuring a sailfar size/priced boat is, to me, a MUCH better option than that.  Scary thought, I know, but it helps my mind to remember they are not really in the business of helping me so much as taking my money (and somehow justifying dictating to me when/how I can use my own personal property).

YMMV...

[Oldrig]

Adam,

Glad to hear that you're enjoying the Bayfield.
FWIW, I found Boat US insurance too inflexible for me. They refused to issue a certificate in time for me to have the boat sailed from New London, CT, to Buzzards Bay, MA, in time. So I contacted a local independent agent. They got me a Travelers policy. I'm not sure that company still writes marine insurance, but I've got the same Nov. 1 haul-out deadline if I keep the boat in New England.

Another thought on insurance: Have you contacted Amica?

Best of luck with your new boat and potential future home.

--Joe

[CaptMac]

I also have my boat insurance with my auto carrier (Farm Bureau) and it is much less than BOAT/US and they did not require a survey.
When I lived aboard on the hook I used a sun shower or I heated water on the stove and put it in a bug sprayer I think it was 1/4 hot water to 3/4 cold, you can wet down , soap, and rise off with less than a gallon of water.
Enjoy your new adventure, you picked a great boat

[Captain Smollett]

When I lived aboard on the hook I used a sun shower or I heated water on the stove and put it in a bug sprayer I think it was 1/4 hot water to 3/4 cold, you can wet down , soap, and rise off with less than a gallon of water.

Yep, and just to mention it:  I have a friend that has gone to doing this at home (land based home).  One of his teen-aged daughters uses this method to shower as well, and has reported to him "no loss of comfort."

I don't think she's an exceptionally "earthy" teen girl...

Just pointing out that keeping with the 'reduction of misery' principle, sometimes we talk ourselves into being miserable.  If a teen girl can do this and actually still enjoy her showers, not considering it 'sacrifice,' it must not be giving up too much.

(Not aimed at anyone in particular...just a general remark regarding what we give up, or don't really give up, to live aboard small boats...the psychological hurdles are the biggest).

[CharlieJ]

Did that when I lived full time on my Trimaran and also for all the time we cruised on Tehani..

When cruising, used Wet Wipes a lot, since you really don't usually get dirty enough to NEED a shower every day. In warm clean water, I bathed in salt, then rinsed with the solar shower. I've had two different ladies aboard full time, and neither had any objections. Of course, both were "salty ladies" :D

I also have one  of the solar showers from DuckWorks aboard Necessity. Same thing I used on Tehani. Built for them as a shower.

As an extra point, in the south for sure, I'd never have a shower below decks. May as well just issue an invite for mold and mildew.  I've seen many many boats with enclosed showers that were mildewed all to pieces.

Now I must admit, I've never lived aboard in winter north of Annapolis Maryland, so that could change my mind, but I doubt it.

[CharlieJ]

From the Duckworks website, under "gear", here's the sprayer

[Godot]

Please understand that showering onboard (meaning below deck) was never going to be a regular thing, and quite possibly a never thing. I'm quite aware of the downside of a shower in a small boat. And there is no need so long as I am at my marina which has excellent showers. If I'm out cruising, then I'm in Cruising Mode not Work Mode and there is generally no problem using alternate hygiene methods and daily showers become an extravagant luxury instead of a professional necessity. 

But hot tap water (pressurized, even) is a nice convenience. Remember, this will be a live aboard (<sigh>...eventually anyhow...schedules were born to be broken apparently) before it becomes a full time vehicle to adventure. Still, hot water was never a huge priority, and I probably wouldn't have thought of it at all if it wasn't already installed.  It is something I need to consider given the questionable pre-existing water heater. Do I repair? Do I replace? Do I remove? There is room for the heater. The plumbing infrastructure is already in place. It is not that big a deal to install a new heater. The question is only if the convenience outweighs the $250 (plus probably another $50-100 in incidental expenses) cost plus a day or so of my labor.

Can I live without? Sure. It's a luxury not a necessity. But where is it written that we aren't allowed some luxury?

[Captain Smollett]

Do I repair? Do I replace? Do I remove?

Remove.   ;D ;D  (since you asked...)

The question is only if the convenience outweighs the $250 (plus probably another $50-100 in incidental expenses) cost plus a day or so of my labor.

Lin and Larry's term:  Freedom Chips

That $300 is a MONTH of cruising if you go into low-spend mode.

But more importantly, what is the long term 'cost.'  How often will you be repairing this "system" in the future?  How often will you possibly even be worried about repairing it?  What complexity does it add to other "systems" aboard?

What if you have a guest aboard, someone who has come to expect running hot water...and it fails then.  There are "hidden" costs to these extravagances that is very hard to measure. 

Remove the system: removes expectation and removes the costs of failure.

Can I live without? Sure. It's a luxury not a necessity. But where is it written that we aren't allowed some luxury?

Luxury breeds dependence on itself.  That's the big downside.

Does that mean no luxury, ever?  Where are the lines?  Personal questions each must answer.

Fuel for thought, philosophical pondering follows:

The dependency is the problem....the "my water heater is broken, I must fix it NOW" mind set that might kick in at any port while cruising.  The Pardey's have written about this extensively.  It's all mental...what can you do without, what do you want to do without, what bothers you to think about doing without.

In other words, I think the bigger question to ask is "why do I consider running hot water a luxury that I want?"  What's driving the DESIRE to even have it.  This is truly a separate question, and one to ponder on a dark peaceful night at anchor (or in the marina).

If the desire to have some luxury is there, the "I want it" mind set will always be there...it will be something missed...and that can be like a needle in the side, or a rock in the shoe.

If you are even asking the question "should I fix it," perhaps it is more than a luxury and at some level has arisen to "desirable" or even perceived as "necessity."

[tomwatt]

At one point in my life, while holding a nice job, but more or less living out of my car plus a closet, the solution for showering was simple - health club membership: locker, facilities for showering, etc. plus even had laundry facilities. This is presuming you're not at a marina with shore facilities available to you. It kinda beats the need for fooling with the shower below decks. Lin & Larry had a sort of a sitz bath arrangement that slid out from under the cockpit diagrammed in one of their boats. Most ladies would happily bathe rather than shower anyway.

[jotruk]

When we were on the Texas 200 this year we had a sun shower (5 gallon type) for the first few days. It was nice to rinse off after a hot day on the water before going to bed. We lost it over board on the 3rd day due to winds and just not tieing it down, really missed it. This was a very nice to have item. The boat we were on had no water system at all just some storage bottles and small drinking bottles. We showered in the cockpit after dark. Over all when I move my 27 footer to the coast will will have a sunshower on board and make use of it as I can.

[SalientAngle]

this thread has caused me to dust off my aged copy of Alan Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and revisit the metaphysics of quality... That said, I also re-read tolkien's trilogy each year...

[Sunset]

I would replace the hot water heater, :) but there is a lot of experience here that says not! Probably better off taking their advice.
I am going to install a shower in my new 28, but I haven't totally ignored the advice from others. We will have a roof hatch an opening port and a louvered door on the head.
I know a boat is not a house, but personally Larry and Lin have more tolerance to do without than I do. ;D

[CharlieJ]

 ;D ;D ;D
Totally tongue in cheek here-

But why do you need a HOT water heater? If it's HOT water, it doesn't need heating!! You need to heat COLD water. So perhaps it should be called just a "water heater"

;D ;D ;D

Isn't our use of language funny sometimes?

[Captain Smollett]

this thread has caused me to dust off my aged copy of Alan Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and revisit the metaphysics of quality... That said, I also re-read tolkien's trilogy each year...

If you like Pirsig's style of writing, you might like his take on cruising:

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,1276.msg35540.html#msg35540

(on topic to the thread, too)

[SalientAngle]

thanks for the link, very insightful, put a grog on my tab, I have been trolling the wealth of information on this sight daily, but had not seen that thread, again thanks!!!