How small for how far…… ???

[s/v Faith]

How small for how far...... ???

  I believe in the Sailfar concept.  I think there are substantial benefits to be gained by avoiding 'two foot itis' and moving to a larger boat for cruising.

  My plans include spending a significant amount of time onboard.  The struggle to define just exactly 'how much is enough' continues to plague me.  My first mate and I talk about this all the time....

A friend is selling an Irwin 37.*  I have sailed with them and looked after the boat for them for a couple years now.  There are things about the boat I like.  I like to stand in the galley, with someone else, and have multiple pots cooking at the same time.  I like to gather in the cockpit and chat... with several friends.  I admire the head.
I also see that even with the two of them living aboard, most of the space is wasted.  I can count the times they have been away from the dock in the last two years on both hands. I know I have no interest in docking such a boat in any cross wind.

Another friend just bought an Oday 32 center cockpit*.  It is much like the Irwin, in that you could supplement your income by holding dance classes in the cockpit.  Great galley, great accommodations, tons of stowage.  With the dodger, and bimmini all buttoned up it is like being in a screened porch.  Sitting behind the wheel, (to me) is much like sitting in the drivers seat of a mobile home.  Great visibility, but you know you are driving something large.  With the screened in porch, and the high freeboard it may well have as much sail area as my main.  I am not sure I would want to sit at anchor with my main up.

I have another friend with an Alberg 30*.  Great boat.  It is my boat with a galley, and a head with a door.  It draws another foot, is more tender then my Ariel (probably because of the Iron ballast).  Great boat, but not too much more space then what I have now.

Went for a drive this weekend.  Looked at a Cape Dory 28.*  Really impressed with this boat.  Same hull, (can you tell I like Carl Alberg designs?) but with a smaller cockpit, and longer cabin top.  Man oh man do I like the opening ports and other bronze hardware on that boat.  Nice galley (compared to what I have), good stowage space.... But.....
Head with a closing door that is hard to get into.... Would not want to use on a port tack.  V-berth is cramped, would probably just turn the salon into a queen birth like what I have now.....
Inboard diesel, which I like but I know that the maintenance is a lot more expensive.  The real upside to this boat is that it carries 60 gallons of water. 

What I am getting at, in this long rambling post is that the struggle to define just how much 'boat' (space, systems, accommodation, etc.) is really hard to define.

So often I talk to people who have moved up to a larger boat.  Some of the reasons cited are really really basic things.  One man I know sold his 24' Primrose design because he decided that the lack of a hanging locker for wet foul weather gear made life underway unbearable.  Another couple who live aboard a 29' boat are looking for a separate shower stall.  I talked to a guy last year who went from a hunter 27 to a much larger boat just so he could get away from alcohol stoves.  He believed he needed the bigger boat to house the propane locker......

Where is every body else on this?[/i] 




* My comments are not intended to disparage these boats in any way.  Everyone will have a different opion on the 'perfect' boat.  What is cool is that as diferent as boats are, the reasons that people choose to sail them are so often similar.  ;D

... Now power boaters on the other hand......   :o

[Captain Smollett]

What I am getting at, in this long rambling post is that the struggle to define just how much 'boat' (space, systems, accommodation, etc.) is really hard to define.

I agree.  The line between just big enough and too big is very individual.  Some people have unrealistic expectations about what amenities are NEEDED and plan/design around that.  For some, bigger boat means bigger bragging rights.  For others, the marketing pressure from SAIL magazine and other sources if just to powerful.  (the official SAIL position seems to me to be if it is under about 32 ft, it's a dingy or day sailer and not really a cruising boat).

Lin and Larry Pardey's book "Cost Conscious Cruiser" really delves into this from a bunch of different angles: cost, convenience, and basic philosophy.  The simple empirical fact remains that most people who GO cruising and are successful at reaching their goals do so on smaller boats with fewer amenities/complication. As you pointed out, many 'bigger' boats stay at the dock.  Many a complicated system failure has prevented or abruptly ended a cruise.

I think it can be summed up as: do you own the boat, or does the boat own you?  smaller and simpler, wherever that line is for any given individual, tends to let the boat be a means to an end - the destination.

My $0.02.

[CharlieJ]

Our Meridian 25 is almost the same size as the Ariel and for us at this time, suits us just fine. She isn't really large enough for both of us to live aboard full time, but for cruises of several months she's just right.

We too suffer from the "head in the bed" syndrome but don't find it overly limiting. We use the Vee berth every night with little problem. Of course I built the forecabin in such a way that in an emergency the porta potti can be pulled out into the main cabin sole for use. Haven't had to do that yet, but it's possible to do. Of course, at sea it's no problem- you can just use a bucket and dump it.

In our rebuild I added a LOT of extra storage to the boat so we aren't as limited as standard Meridians, which WERE pretty short. I added settee backs with storage in there, and totally rebuilt the fore cabin with added storage up in the corners of the Vee berth. Also closed off the foot of the port side settee berth for galley storage. Added a slide out chart table over the starboard side settee berth foot, which went into previously dead space under the galley counter top.

I also just completed the addition of a second water tank of 70 liters under the cockpit, so she now has the capability to carry 140 liters. Should do us for a month if we are careful and use seawater for some things (when in clean water areas) That tank under the cockpit is under a new compartment I built that carries an extra anchor (12 pound high tensile Danforth), chain and 200 feet of rode. There's also room in there for our 15 pound folding Northhill.

Laura is rather small so the boat fits her perfectly- she can make or strike sail or raise and set the anchor by her self.  And she has used the main sheet tackle attached to the anchor chain to haul us off a sand bar on a couple of occasions. In fact, she's perfectly capable of singlehanding the boat., which is important since if we intend to make any long passages (and we do) she must be able to handle it by herself while I sleep. And vice versa of course.

We don't have a windlass although should I find the right one at a good price I'd buy it- a manual one, not electric.

Now should we decide in the future to live aboard full time I'd try to fiind something like an Alberg 30 which IS large enough. That is of course if I couldn't find a 30 or 31 foot trimaran built in a way that satisfied me. Having cruised a 35 foot tri before I find a multihull to be THE most comfortable cruiser going. But GOOD ones are expensive and cheap ones are dangerous :)

[hearsejr]

 ok.... I know this will sound sort of unbelievable, to those who have had any dealings with Coronado's, but I really liked the Coronado C-27. the one I had was a 1972 shoal keel version, seemed as solid as a rock to me. it had just enough room for one person and was easy enough to handle by my self. I would have jumped at a 33'er, before I got the C-27, but I have reconsidered my choices and fee a 27'-28'er would suit me fine. ofcourse I just got this 22'er, and  may find it to be a great boat, atleast till my funds recoup.
Bill

[CapnK]

My longest, funnest cruise so far was aboard a very small vessel, even by our sailFar "standards" - 15' LOA, 22" beam, with *very* little stowage - 10,000 cubic inches or so (think 2 backpacks). A touring kayak. We were out for 14 days, covered ~440 miles, and it was a *BLAST*. I've done two other such long "cruises" via sea kayak, and even though there were plenty of "drawbacks" - no sails, all motive power was arm-supplied; every night/morn you have to completely unpack/repack ALL of your gear; no shelter from the elements until landfall and tent raising; very few "luxuries" (ie; a Walkman); cramped "quarters", have to go shoreside even to stand up - the simple fact that we were traveling by boat made the trips beyond worthwhile.

In fact, those trips redefined a lot of things that I had previously seen as necessities. Our first trip, we had a small mountain of gear - easily the size of our boats when sitting on the ground next to them. We had to make some choices setting out about what to take or not, simply because we didn't have the room to carry everything we thought we wanted/needed to carry. Choices made (some good, some bad we'd learn), we took off - we had no other option available. 5 days downriver, when we met some friends who could relieve us of some of the stuff we'd found to be superfluous, our gear mountains shrank quite a bit, thanks to what we'd learned. That was this:

There are few things you really NEED. If you have the space to carry more than you Need, you will fill it with stuff you *don't* need. This Extra Stuff gets in the way, it  winds up taking up "mental space" - even though you aren't using it, you have to deal with it, care for it, maybe move it out of the way to get at something you Need to use. If you take time to sit down and really analyze it, really be honest about it, you'll find that you really bring along Extra Stuff *simply because of Fear* - fear of what MIGHT happen, fear of what MIGHT be needed, fear that you MIGHT need this piece of Stuff down the road somewhere maybe - and MIGHT is the operative word in all this, the word which shows you that your choice is being made out of Fear.

Thus, the extra stuff takes away from what is important - the trip, the Cruise, the Life you are living, and so it becomes even more of a detriment to the trip than the mere inconvenience factor.

So, with these learnings of my own (which mirror closely many of your own, and those of such folks as the Pardeys or Don Casey), I chose a boat that I thought struck a good balance between Comfort and Need, with as little Extra Stuff as possible. I can stand upright belowdecks, and that pretty much takes care of Comfort. She handles wonderfully on all points of sail, and I consider that a Need. Her systems (which stretches that term a bit ;) ) are very simple - tiller steering, porta potty, outboard engine-powered, hand-pumped pressure water, solar panel for the batteries, etc... - so there is not a lot of extra things which can break, or which I need carry spares for. The only "worriesome" things about her are some old thru-hulls that I want to remove and glass over.

There's not a lot of Luxury aboard her, as most Americans think of it - probably the stereo CD player and good speakers are what qualifies as that, with perhaps the "library" thrown in (which really is a Need for *me* ;)), but for me, there is plenty of Luxury. The standing headroom, the mind-easing simplicity, the fact that I can easily work on and fix everything aboard - that qualifies as Luxury to me, because they give me peace of mind, and that is something I personally find invaluable.

Yesterday I had a couple offer to sell me their 34'er (they just moved up to a 44'er). Their offer was barely out of their mouths when I started turning it down. I'm not even remotely interested in getting some big, systems-intensive boat that would keep me, the boat, and my thoughts dock-bound. No way, Uh-uh, no thanks. :) I can see the possibility of needing a bit more room for a couple to cruise in/on, but not a whole lot. To my mind, it seems that 32' would be the *upper* limit of consideration.

But that's just me... :)

[Pixie Dust]

Capt K- so very well said.  I find I tend to accumulate lots of items, tools, extra,  parts, pots, pans, cleaning agents, etc, etc.  I find I do use a lot of it, but there are also numerous items that get touched, but never used.  I dig through lots of stuff at times to get to what I need.  This site, recent articles and books, shared and recommended have opened my eyes to analyze some of my prior beliefs.  I was introduced to sailing on a new 34' Catalina with all the bells and whistles.  You Sailfar folks are re-educating me on the advantages of simplicity with of course a focus on safety.... not fear, but safe sailing vessels.  There are some things as a gal I feel I need or at least I really want on board.   ::) I am sure we all have our "must have" lists.  After 2 months of cruising, I wonder how much we could throw off as not needed?  Of course then 2 days later will be when you might need it.   :D
I guess it just goes to show you that you can teach an old dog new tricks and I can still admit that someone may have a better way.   This site is full of opportunities to learn.  Once again, you and others have shown that bigger and more is not always better, especially if it keeps you dock bound and financially strained.  Maybe we should all take a 14 day Kayak trip and practice downsizing. I would probably try to put a sail on it though.  That could mean 1 more shirt on board.  :)
;D ;D

[starcrest]

check out the article by james atom  baldwin-----"one with the ocean" or is it one with the sea-----thats how small for how far----

[Captain Smollett]

This Extra Stuff gets in the way, it  winds up taking up "mental space"

and

I tend to accumulate lots of items, tools, extra,  parts, pots, pans, cleaning agents, etc, etc.

Wow.  Kurt, that is very well said.  Like Connie, I tend to accumulate stuff.  I'm in the middle of doing some re-fitting to prep for our trip to Hilton Head in May.  As I need to do some chores below, I started clearing 'stuff' out of the way.  And there was more stuff - in the way.

I actually asked myself, just a couple of days ago, "why do I have all this junk on board?"

As for downsizing the mountain of gear, from my backpacking days, I had a rule: if I did not use it EVERY day while on the trail, it did not go.  I was usually too beat or too busy (we hiked a lot of 'survival' style trips, very minimalist) to carry luxury items.  Walkman on the trail?  No Way.  But I see people do it.  Carry a chair to sit around camp?  No way; but I see people do it.  I do believe everyone has their own comfort limit, but KR is right on that MOST of us overestimate what is ESSENTIAL.

Last summer I took a short (three days) hiking trip with some guys I've never hiked with before.  The experience ranged from first timers to an AT through hiker.  Some backpacks were OVER FIFTY POUNDS!   :o  Mine was the lightest at 18 lbs, and I considered that very heavy for a three day trip.

My boat is small - 18 ft, and limited storage means VERY limited storage.  As I plan things that I "need" I am faced with "okay, where's it gonna go?"  To me, the most essential system on board is the hull first and the rig second (aside from the people, but you know what I mean).  I don't need a lot of toys to be comfortable, but I fear trying to overplan those "MIGHT NEEDS" that Kurt mentioned.  I am seriously in simplification mode, while at the same time trying to beef up hull/rig.

[hearsejr]

check out the article by james atom  baldwin-----

I conversed with Him through emails and he seems like a great fella.   I read he once pulled a 27'er with his Triton 27. like 800 miles or some'n. I'll look it up later on and make sure, but I think the owner of the towed vessle  got some real bad stumach troubles and called for help, but the help arrived they made him leave the boat for fear of his condition getting worse, and James Baldwin and his little girl  retrieved the boat and towed it the Azores.
now this is from memerory, and so is my spelling..let me double check before you quote me.
Bill

[CapnK]

Thx for the compliments y'all. :)

Here's the article Starcrest referred to: Link. It's about a guy who sailed a 15' dugout canoe - from Panama to the Phillipines - wow. :)

[CharlieH]

Most of my sailing has been in a really small vessel.  So moving up to a 25 footer seems luxurious and extravagant!  Sitting headroom!  WOW!

I am coming at my sailfar experience more from a camping angle.  Spent a few years primitive camping and backpacking as an asst scout leader.  We carried in/out and had the kids carry in/out everything we took along.   Won't have very much if ya have to carry it!!

I am trying to carry this premise over into the rebuilding of my boat.  As little hardware as possible inside and out.  As few moving parts as possible inside and out.  Less to break, less to maintain.

My luxuries will be......  foot pump for sink water, stereo with CD, sitting headroom, the ability to stand and use the portapottie with the forehatch open, the ability to stand and cook and such at the galley with the compainionway hatch open and the biggest luxury for me will be an outboard.

I've tryed very hard to make the boat as strong as I know how to while rebuilding it.  Also keeping the built-in weight as low as possible.  All storage is, at most, 3 inches above the waterline, which is the seat and berth level.  I'll be able to pull the outboard and drop it in the lazarette when not needed, i.e. once out of the New York Canal!  ;)   Working on finding some big solar panels and the batteries for them to top off. 

I may seem a luddite to some, but cruising will be comfortable, safe and most importantly, possible for me.

CharlieH

[CharlieJ]

I wouldn't think of that foot pump  for water as a luxury. I think it's the most efficient way of delivering water. That's what we have on Tehani- I think the hand operated pumps are pretty silly ;)

I bought the whale gusher, double action.

[s/v Faith]

I may seem a luddite to some, but cruising will be comfortable, safe and most importantly, possible for me.

  It aint' so much fear for the luddite..... as for the luddette.  ;D

[hearsejr]

 hay I have a fancy self contained water tank and sink. ofcourse it also has a dreaded hand pump...can someone tell me how to scrub your fingure nails while you wash your hands, and pump the water at the same time??? lol
Bill

[Sonnie]

Check out these guys - for anyone who needs some inspiration to do it, or who uses the "my boat is too small/ unprepared for a long cruise" should check this out. Two guys in a 25 foot boat sail from Toronto, Canada to the bahamas, Cuba and back.  These guys have almost zero sailing experience, a boat that most of us wouldn't take for a weekend cruise, and yet they have the time of their lives- It seems a miracle they keep them, but hey, that's adventure, right?

http://www.sailaway.us   Edit - CapnK: https://web.archive.org/web/20180401000000*/sailaway.us

Enjoy!
Sonnie

[CapnK]

Sonnie -

Thanks for that link! I look forward to reading about their story, and seeing some of the 500 pics! (Wow!)

[mariner3302]

Small may be better in some ways, and it is hard to leave things that you are used too, but amenities are "needed" or not as determined by an individuals WANTS. My 1987 Tartan 34-2 is just right for me (I singlehand and live aboard). I have thought of moving up in size but don't really "need" too, and honestly I don't feel like it yet. I CAN move down in size if I want, I have a slide-in pickup camper that is 12 feet long. I have travelled and lived in that a lot, but on my boat I like my water pump, my storage and tankage, and space to just hang out in. Living aboard and cruising is about going and experiencing and enjoying, and only you can tell yourself if you really want something else. It sounds like you do, and there is no shame in that, and your friends won't change. It isn't the size of the boat, big or small.... it is the destinations and the experiences and the memories.

[s/v Faith]

By "water pump" do you mean electric water pump on your potable water, or something else?

[Frank]

As you know...I am 'down sizing'...again. I am probably not capable of giving you an objective opinion...I am a 'small boat nut'.....bottom line !!  BUT ..I have cruised with a new 34fter for 2 1/2 yrs...I have sailed/cruised often in a 36ft. This much I can tell you as a " TRUTH" no matter where your heart lies.   1-you sail more with a smaller boat   2-you cruise more with a smaller boat  3-you change sails easier on a smaller boat(here in after called SB) 4-you cruise in shallower water in a SB 5- you anchor WAY easier in a SB 6-you spend WAY less $$$$ on gear/storage/maintainance in a SB  7-#6 means you cruise more in a SB   HERE IS THEE did I say THEE BIGGY...you have LESS STRESS in a SB !!!!! more fun,more often,less stress=my kind of sailing !!!!!!!!!  and that my friend IS the bottom line

[Frank]

A follow up to my last post on this.I truly believe that you should sail the smallest boat possible for the reasons I listed and many more.Just how small that 'smallest boat possible' will be is up to you. 1st off...people should be honest with themselves about how they will actually use their boat...not that 'once every 2yr thing' but the vast majority of use.Then figure out the smallest possible for that use. My 'needs' are not totally unique.I single hand often as I have more time than Judy, BUT 'we' both enjoy cruising and usually get close to a 3week cruise in as our 'big one' together each year.We talk of having one of the kids along next year. For us the boat must be able to go offshore as we often cross the gulfstream and plan on Cuba soon too. It must have a comfortable double bunk...preferably one that I can get up from and sit elswhere with out taking it apart.A seperate/private head is a must for me.I've just never gotten comfortable with an audience for certain performances.Standing headroom or close to it is a real bonus...as is storage and tankage.Good ventalation is real important! I love shallow draft...it opens up a ton of places and takes away a ton of stress.We continually left with our 26ft Ariel AFTER another couple in a 33fter and arrived 1st during last years cruise!!! Honest...we could cut across banks they had to sail around. I purchased a beautiful 'Flicka'....for us a near perfect boat. Diesal for range/power..seaworthy..only 3ft3in draft..cutter rig..private head..nice sized Vberth double..1/4 berth for one of the kids if they join us.Judy can sleep in and I can still get up -sit-read etc  (OK OK make breakfast).Small enough I can easily single hand it.Anchoring is super easy with the double bow rollers.We spend so much time walking/exploring on shore or out in the dingy that the small size is OK...and we get along easily..that really helps.So for us and what we do...20ft is near perfect.Try poking (gunkholing) around shallow reef strewn cays looking for that perfect dive spot with a big boat...or anchoring on a 30knt windy night with currents...or entering a shallow harbor at low tide. Yep..for our style the lil Flicka is about as good as it gets.We can all talk ourselves into a 'big boat'...my question is   WHY ?????