Walkout transom

[Sunset]

As the turning of the hull my 28 is a few months away. I have gathered many ideas from this forum and others on whats important in the way of cabin layouts. I would like ideas on the cockpit area. I asked Graham to design her with a walkout transom. I have had a few folks say this is not good if your going off shore very much. Well I don't see myself as a ditch runner, I want to sail, so that means being on the outside most of the time.
Help me if I'm missing something, Graham is designing her with a walk through, but also with a heavy drop board that locks into place for bad weather. How is this not as safe as regular closed transom? Most of the transom will be closed up except for the 24 inch path to the swim ladder.
Just for informations sake I had him design her with a very small cockpit area, just a bit over 6 feet. The cabin is very long for a 28, we wanted it for more space below. Graham also is designing in a dodger that can be attached to Bimini when wanted.
We will be leaving KY Lake every fall and the dodger-Bimini with removable side panels will be nice while running the Ten-Tom in the fall.
Any ideas, experience's would be appreciated.

[Captain Smollett]

Gonna offer some thoughts here, but take them with a certain grain of salt.  It's your boat, not mine.

(1) I would not be in favor of a walk through transom for MY boat where I building her.

You are mixing priority in use profile.  On the one hand, you say she's to be an ocean going boat, and on the other you say you want a swim platform on the transom with easy access to it.  Those are, in my opinion at least, contradicting design specs.

That's not to say you cannot have both...but there things have to be compromised....strength of the transom, storage, cockpit volume, etc.

(2) 6 feet is still a very large cockpit for a 'blue water boat,' especially a 28 footer.  Some offshore boats have tiny, tiny cockpits...big enough for the on-watch person to sit in and not much more.

(3) I would prefer turning some of that cockpit space into storage...and sticking it astern in the form of a lazarette would preclude a walk-thru transom.

Even coast hopping, storage on a 28 footer is enough of an issue that a big, huge open cockpit could be considered a waste of space good for nothing other than holding water if you get pooped.

(4) Lin and Larry published a nifty little step design that's easy to build and functions as a boarding ladder, swim platform, etc and it's removable for while underway, and you place it where you want on the SIDE of the boat.  It's in "Cost Conscious Cruiser" if you want to look it up, but it's just a wood slat platform about 4 ft by 18 inches suspended by rope sides.  You can permanently mount the attachment points for the ropes if you choose; I plan to just use hardware not in use while in-port.

I don't mean to sound critical of your idea, just offering general thoughts.  I think that (a) there's a reason you don't see walk-through transoms on the kinds of boats the SailFar community considers good "offshore" boats and (b) you are trying to design at cross purposes...either she's a 'fun at anchor' boat or she's set up for sailing on the ocean.

My two cents, but that is just inflation...

JR

[CharlieJ]

Help me if I'm missing something, Graham is designing her with a walk through, but also with a heavy drop board that locks into place for bad weather. How is this not as safe as regular closed transom? Most of the transom will be closed up except for the 24 inch path to the swim ladder.

Only comment I would make here is- if Graham is designing it, it'll be safe.He's a circumnavigator, and understands offshore.

[Captain Smollett]

Only comment I would make here is- if Graham is designing it, it'll be safe.He's a circumnavigator, and understands offshore.

Charlie, I don't doubt Graham's abilities for a second, but he does have to work within the laws of physics.  Where compromise is made, I believe he will make the best one available.

But that does not mean that not making that compromise is not better.

Does it matter in this case?  I don't know.

But my mind keeps coming back to the 'psychology' (for lack of a better word)....the mind set that asks for the compromise in the first place (not meaning Sunset here, just talking generally and philosophically for a moment).

This is similar, in my mind, to the whole roller furling vs hanks debate where the argument is made "I don't have to go forward."  Well, you might, and if you have already decided it's something you don't want to do, well, you are beat before you start.

Another analogy is designing the boat around the galley that so many "production" companies are doing these days.  The boat cannot, in the strictest sense, be both a dockside entertainment vessel and a safe offshore sailing vessel ... those are cross purposes.

This is similar...a decision is made whether "offshore boat" or "fun at anchor" boat.  That's the FIRST step.  There are ways to make an offshore boat "fun enough" at anchor, like the removable platform I mentioned without sacrificing ANYTHING on the off-shore-design side.

That's the way MY mind leans.  Others may certainly vary in how they make their choices.

Finally, I merely wanted to point out that this question of walk-through transom *IS* a design compromise; it is not seen on "off shore boats" for a reason.  There is a reason many who prefer the seaworthy look of "offshore" boats sneer at more modern boat designs with "Sweet" swim platforms and the like.

I guess the logical question to ask next is, "What does Graham say about it?" 

Given a choice, given a customer that's not asking for it, would he prefer to put in a walk-through or not?  If so, will he go to walk-through transoms on all/many of his future designs?

If the answer to any of these is "no," I'd be asking myself a cold, hard "why not."  After all, he's not put walk-through transoms on his boats in the past, and probably for a reason.

[Sunset]

Thanks Captain, That's what I'm looking for is ideas and different points of view to chew over.
As for motoring a lot we wont have much choice on the Ten-Tom, but motoring. But once we hit the Gulf we may want to shoot straight for the Keys. All will depend on mood and weather.
By off shore I mean maybe as long as two weeks at a time. We don't have plans to be crossing any oceans. But we could be off shore 200 to 300 miles at times. One trip we are looking forward to is from Bimini to the outerbanks and not in the ditch. Don't know what time of the year that trip will be, and it may me windward the whole time. Hope not, but I haven't researched it as of yet.
All of that said we will be doing a lot of coastal cruising also and we are trying to find a compromise in design. I am getting older every day and to be able to just step off into the dink is important to us.
We almost bought a 94 Catalina 30 before deciding to have Graham design us a boat. She had a walk out transom very similar to what we will be building. The loss of storage there seemed minimal, but I understand on boats this size every square inch is important.
Don't worry about being critical, as I said that's what I'm looking for, things to think about.
It would have been so much easier to just have bought that Catalina, but we really had our hearts set on another cat-ketch.

Charlie I have a lot of faith in Graham also. I'm going to try to attend the mess-about this year and we'll talk about this again among other things, like the foam cored decks and cabin.

So please keep the ideas and thoughts coming I need to mull over as much as possible before we get to far along.

[Captain Smollett]

We almost bought a 94 Catalina 30 before deciding to have Graham design us a boat.

I think you are FAR FAR FAR better with a boat Graham designed than that C-30.

If the C-30 has the feature you mentioned, you just made my point on 'design compromises' and where they lie.   ;)

[maxiSwede]

I can't help but wonder why they are called 'swim platorms'. No one is gonna swim on a platform  ;D :o ??? If 'one' doesn't feel comfy with diving into the brine, a boarding ladder is all you need as I see it. Can be a permanent installation or an item spending most of it's life in a locker...

One advantage of the sugarscoops is that no cockpit drains are needed however, and with a beefy bridgedeck I can't see any problems as such for off-shore' (ocean crossing that is). After all, it's done and is done by numerous boats as we talk.

Re. centerboards for off-shore, the French Ovni and many others has done it since the 70s at least. It's just a matter of personal choice, I would love the shallow draft and 'hauling-out on the beach' for one thing. Haul-outs are about the most costly  thing we ever do when moving around in the world. Right now we are in Ecuador, like so many other so called third world countries, living here is very inexpensive, but mariinas and haul-out yards are very expensive unless you can use whatever facilities the local fishing fleet is using.

The most important is that one buys and sails a boat that really appeals...aestethics are important to me at least.

As for 'ocean' or 'blue-water proven' the crew (skills aquired over years, and miles) are 80 %. The boat, or the tool, 20 %

Also, esp. for SailFarsize boats, it's VERY important not to overload the boat, thus reducing it's performance and bouyancy.

I recently discovered Webb Chiles blog, he's planning  -and outfitting- a Moore 24, a light deplacement racer o 70s vintage for crossing oceans. Not everone's cup of tea, but definetely food for thought....

inthepresentsea.com

Cheers, Magnus

[CharlieJ]

I can't help but wonder why they are called 'swim platorms'. No one is gonna swim on a platform  ;D :o ???

;D ;D

Ok, how about if we call them-

Dinghy docks??

;D ;D

[Sunset]

I guess for my intended uses it really is more of a dingy dock.  :) With a four foot draft it's not like I'll be backing up to the shore and stepping off. It will just make getting in and out of the dink easier after too much Rum.

I asked Graham to design it in, it wasn't his suggestion. But usually when I ask for something that's outside of a good sea-keeping design he says no and tells me why.
I had asked for a 11 foot beam and he told me 9 foot 10 inch's was it. If I remember correctly he told me that the action was going to be quicker with the wide beam than if she was designed with say an 8.5 beam.

She wont be what I would call a full blown sugar scoop. The transom is shaped similar, but solid except the walkway where the drop board can be locked into place.

So keep the thoughs coming, anyone out there with an walk through that dont like it?

[rorik]

My $0.17 (cuz Inflation is really at 8% - not 2%):

If I didn't have a boat now, and I had money for any boat I wanted, I would buy two boats - at opposite ends of the spectrum.
An Akilaria 950 and Paul Gartsides 26' cutter Surprise.

Why two very different boats?
The 950 is a race boat (I've always liked going fast) and Surprise is  a solid, seaworthy workboat.
The 950 has an open transom but, since it is moving very fast - at least twice as fast as Surprise - the odds of her getting pooped with a bathtub full of water from a following wave are pretty slim.
If Surprise gets pooped, the water has nowhere to go but right back where it came from.
And, it's a lot of water:
If your cockpit is 6' long by 3' wide by 2' deep - that's 36 cubic feet.
If water weighs 62.3 pounds per cubic foot that's....(holy poop!)... 2,240 pounds.

So, (I know, I know, I'm getting to the point) if you're going 200-300 miles off shore, what are the odds that you could get get into some bad weather and get pooped?
If the walkthrough transom has a door, how strong is it?
Does it seal out the water? Or just the view like on some older powerboats?
Open transom cockpits tend to be kinda wet - all the time.
Would steps on the outside of the transom with a seat, box, step, whatever, inside the aft end of the cockpit serve the same purpose?
Could you step up the transom, over the rail and step down into the cockpit on the seat(?) that would also give more storage area in the cockpit?

[Sunset]

Since I retired 3 years ago my home taxes and insurance has gone up 20 percent. So your right on on the inflation!!! Just More incentive to become a live aboard.

I have thought about a teak or mahogany platform, with a permanent ladder that swings down to the platform. Along with a lifeline gate that can be closed on the transom when not needed. The platform would be made grated. Head room starts to be a small problem with stepping over the full transom, because I wanted a frame for solar panels hanging over the back.
I don't know, we'll just keep gathering ideas. We have a while before the transom decision has to be be made and closed up.

[Sunset]

If you have seen the boat on the cover of July-Aug issue of Good Old Boat, this is real close to what I have in mind. Its an Omega36, I'm going to do a search and see if I can find any close ups of the boat.
By the way my brother had an article in that issue called Ebay to the ocean blue.

[Mr. Fixit]

I agree that a walk thru transom might not  be the best for crossing oceans, my crusing has been limited to costal, and i would not want to be without one. The benefits are many, i like to sit on my swim platform and fish.Since i am now pushing 73 it also makes it easier to get fuel, groceries, etc into the boat when at anchor. My border collie loves to swim, and with the platform approx 6" above  the water he can get back on the boat without assistance. I am sure making this change did not make the transom weaker, and i usually do not install the drop boards, as the platform is swung up over the opening when the boat is sailing or motoring. the construction is simple, mahogony strips mounted to angle iron (aluminum). A hole in the angle and a bolt serve as the hinges and the lines that hold the platform horizontal, also secure the platform when it is vertical.--i will try to post pictures --i though i did post but could not find any pics. I also mounted 3 fold out steps that can be used when the platform is raised that can be used to get back on the boat with the platform raised