installing new keel bolts

[Seadogdave]

Hi there.  My keel bolts on my Catalina 27 are looking rather shabby (the original nuts have practically rusted off).  Catalina Direct sells a Keep Bolt Retrofit kit for installation for a lead keel.  Included are five 8" long, 1/2" diameter lag bolts of 316 stainless, and an extra long 18" drill.  The price is $279.95.  To me that seems rather steep (unless they plan on installing it for me as well).  Does anyone have experience doing such a job?  How hard is it to cut through the lead with a drill bit?  Should I not be able to purchase these items from an industrial supply or marine supply far cheaper?  Any insights are appreciated.

[Captain Smollett]

I have not done this particular job, but to answer one of your questions, lead is a very soft metal.  It's not hard to cut or drill.

I suspect you are looking at some "we know, you don't" style mark-up.

McMaster-Carr currently has 1/2" 316 stainless threaded rod, in a 6 ft length (more than you need for 5 eight inch pieces) listed for $57.68.  They don't list a price for 1/2" lag bolts in 316 stainless...

Maybe the drill bit is over $200??   ???   ::) 

On the other hand, it might not be a bad thing to order from them..,in theory at least, they know what works on your boat.

[Seadogdave]

Thanks for the reply and information about McMaster Carr - nice to know about this supplier.  In giving this issue further thought I'm thinking of devising a way of continuing the use of the existing keel bolts by breaking off the corroded and rusted nuts and replacing them with something else that can tighter to the existing bolt shaft.  Although the threads of the bolts have deteriorated, I think the metal shafts still have integrity.  I wonder if there is something I can do as an alternative.  I thought about devising an odd shaped washer and installing a substantial size cable clamp on each bolt.  Perhaps another alternative could be to use a smaller die and rethread the bolts and replace with new nuts.  I've heard two stories of people trying to remove their keels and having great difficulty, so it may not be that great of an issue anyway - I haven't heard of anyone's keel falling off lately.  Still I feel a bit more secure if I go offshore with the problem resolved.

[Leroy - Gulf 29]

FWIW...
I'd use an impact driver and remove the nuts to see what you've got.   You may just be able to replace the nuts.  Are they suggesting just drilling new keel bolt holes?  Below is a ballpark estimate for materials from the web.   

http://www.boltdepot.com/Product-Details.aspx?product=3737 = 1/2" x 8" stainless 316 lag bolts @ $11.02 ea plus shipping.  $55.10 for bolts. $224.85 for 1/2" x 18" bit seems a bit steep.  1/2 inch drill bit is around $15.  an extension, say add another $10.  Basically a $200 "Catalina" markup.

[s/v necessity]

Be careful if you drill the lead.  In my experience it's pretty easy to get the bit stuck in the lead, and then the bit can break in the resulting schenanigans.  I suspect something other than a standard twist style bit might work better.  The standard 1/2" bit I was using wanted to "screw" down into the lead, and quite a bit of attention was required to keep it from doing so.  Advance slowly and remove and clear the bit frequently. 

Replacing your keel bolts might not be such a bad idea, especially if the boat is fairly old.  If the nuts are junk, then what are the odds that the bolts are suffering where you cant see them?  (stainless steel does not fair well in an oxygen free environment, so frequently the part that defies inspection is corroded)

[marujo_sortudo]

Stainless steel keel bolts often suffer from crevice corrosion and other forms of corrosion.  I would strongly recommend replacing them if the nuts are looking badly corroded.  If you pull them, you will probably see why.  This is not somewhere to save money.  When keels fall off there is often a loss of boat and/or life.  If the lag bolts are only threaded as far as they need to be this increases cost substantially but also improves their longevity vs corrosion.  Alas, I don't think you can fairly compare price vs. a piece of threaded rod.  Also, make sure any bolts you get are from a reputable supplier of high quality marine stainless.  The difference between good stainless and bad stainless of even the same nominal alloy can be very substantial.

[Seadogdave]

Very interesting insights to my problem - thank you all!  I will provide a little more information.  The boat is pretty old - a 1975 Catalina 27.  The nuts are very deteriorated and the threads of the bolts are also beyond trying to screw on new nuts.  The original bolts are iron - not stainless steel. 

This is a response I got from the engineering department of Catalina Yachts three years ago when I posed the question of how much to be concerned (the bolts didn't look as bad as they do now):
"The keel bolts should be fine.  I have heard of people trying to change keels and with the boat hanging in the air, nuts removed, they are still having to use wedges and sledgehammers to get the keel off.  Have not heard of any boats losing a keel.  Check out the link below for a lot of other great info. http://www.catalina27.org/ "

Anyway. when I haul out in the Spring, I expect I'll go ahead and install stainless steel lag bolts that I purchase from an industrial supply.  Thanks for those links, by the way.

[CharlieJ]

Tehani had 9 keelbolts originally. I couldn't check them to my satisfaction, so I added new ones. I added 12 more bolts, for a current total of 21 bolts.

I drilled and tapped the keel and used bolts, instead of nuts, and set them up against large washers and new floors. Don't have any pics on this computer of the new floors. Soon as I can I'll post a  pic.

[Seadogdave]

Were you going into a lead keel?  I was wondering which might be better to use - tappping and using stainless steel bolts and nots or whether to use lag bolts (which is was Catalina Direct sells).  I am going into a lead keel.  Merry Christmas!

[CharlieJ]

Cast iron so I used galvanised. For lead I'd think lag bolts would be better. Lead is terrible to tap- balls up unlessit has a lot of antimony in it. Most keels don't.

[Seadogdave]

I wish to report that as of last weekend, mission accomplished - that is, I have finished installing the last 2 keel bolts.  I decided to go with five 1/2"x 8" 318 Stainless lag screws which I installed in between the existing keel bolts.  I started the job earlier in the summer (put in three) but had some sailing to get done before getting back to the job.  I ordered the lag screws from Manasquan Premium Fasteners which had the best prices (totaled about $88 with washers and shipping).  It was rather easy to drill through the fiberglass, plywood, and then the lead.  I needed to frequently clean the drill bit of the lead.  It was an exhausting job to tighten in the lag screws using a 1/2" ratchet, and finally a 1/2" breaker bar, giving it all I had.  But, all in all not  a bad job, and I feel secure that the keel isn't going to ever come off.

[Captain Smollett]

Good job!  Glad you have more confidence in your boat - that makes a BUNCH of difference when things starting going to poop.