Who's to say?? Offshore for newbie's

[Frank]

 The recent posts by NOHM and NORTHOCEANBEACH about being inexperienced and heading off to sea has drawn multiple responces with very good heart felt advice. It is SO true that there is simply no substitute for experience! IMHO, the time to learn how to tuck a reef in your main is NOT your 1st time in breaking seas. All boats heave-to differently. The time to learn is not the 1st time you need a break. I strongly believe that! I've been terrified 'out there', I've made many many mistakes. But....as I read the responces and think of suggestions I could ad....I remember Tadhg.
Tadhg is a young Irishman that I befriended years ago in Bahamas. He sailed in as on a chaps boat from the USA that wanted crew for the couple of days to get from USA to the Abacos. That couple of days was the sum total of Tadhg's sailing experience. He "jumped ship" and hung out for a while until a chance came up to aquire an old 1960's 29fter. She was a sound design, in tuff shape having sat neglected for years, but he got her moved and over the coarse of time on a near zero budget, got her somewhat seaworthy. (several repairs were done 'on the cheap'...but seem to have worked). Tadhg talked and drempt about heading south through the Carribean. He had visions of ferrying backpackers from Panama to Venesaula for income. The joke then became "when are you leaving?" as well as "when are you going to learn how to sail?" He only ventured as far as Marsh Harbour once or twice (about 30 knm rd trip) and rarely moved the boat. We all suggested he go out on windy days to "learn what to do" so he won't be overwhelmed when/if he did leave. I left to go home...returning the next fall to see the boat still at the mooring. Tadhg's trip was kind of the inside joke as we all had odds on him never going. Then one morning, without any warning or fanfare....the boat was gone! He made it all through the Carribean to South Amarica and played around doing what he could to make enuff to keep the dream alive. A year passed with him gone. Around early Feb. this year...in sails Tadhg!! Along with him was a sweet Irish lass. When I left to come home, they had plans of sailing off to Ireland!! She wasn't sure how she would be out in the big stuff, so the plan was a flight from the Azores if she couldn't take it. As I peck this out, I realize I should contact them for an update.
My point for sharing the story is YES...I fully believe that experience IS needed to go to the open sea. That many skills should first be aquired and a comfort level should be obtained doing all the basics long before heading offshore.
But gentlemen, I caution you (and I) not to intimidate too much. Yes...you are correct in ALL that you (I) say. Just remember....Tadhg proved us wrong. So did Shane Atkin on Shrimpy, Taina Abie, Robert Lee Graham and a very long list of others.  ;)
 

[Captain Smollett]

Tadhg proved us wrong. So did Shane Atkin on Shrimpy, Taina Abie, Robert Lee Graham and a very long list of others.  ;)
 

Wonderful story, Frank.  But...I submit that in one sense, your story proves the point we were all making.  Tadhg may not have been "sailing" for those down years, but he was learning...and it WAS "mental preparation."  He did not just buy a boat he thought was ready, hop on and go completely without experience.

Others have done just that, of course.  Tania Aebi is a good example...no trials on the boat, little experience, etc, etc.  But, she herself cautions others not do it this way, if I recall correctly.

To me, it boils down to "statistics."  What path is most likely to succeed, vs what path has the higher likelihood of failure.  There are a lot of folks that "just take off" unprepared or with the wrong boat that give up the dream.

As Godot said, one merely needs to look at the number of boats in far away ports that are for sale after one passage.  Dreams killed due not to bad boats, lack of experience but, I would say....incorrect expectations.

The last thing I want to be is a dream killer.  Therefore, I wish merely to make the expectations more realistic.  Not to tell someone "don't go" but to tell them "reality is different than your expectation" in the hope that the expectation realigns.  I hope that makes sense.

When someone says, "I know how to tack and gybe, what else is there," I think "there's a LOT of else."  One can learn on the go with a high probability of failure (giving up the dream because reality did not meet expectations, or worse) or one can be patience and learn a little first with a higher probability of getting out of the adventure what one hoped.

Tadhg is an exception; most folks don't keep going if they face some hardship they did not see coming.

But, at the end of the day...you are 100% correct.  People do this sort of thing for a lot of reasons and with a lot of goals in mind.  Good on 'em.  I earnestly hope my word never, ever are taken as trying to talk someone out of 'going.'

PS: Who said anything to NORTHOCEANBEACH about going/not going?  I thought his post was more about figuring out which gear suits him best.

[Frank]

I "KNOW" for a fact that you are the last to hold anyone back!!  I put NORTHOCEANBEACH in there as a 'newbie' looking for advice.  
How do you tell someone that a time will come when they will feel like they are in a washing machine set on "get the dirt outta there" cycle with both a visual and sound outside that could only be discribed as violent!  I fully understand that to keep on going, it is best to 'grow into' those situations and not be thrown into them. That would be a dream killer for sure !
As I said....I agree with the advice...GREAT advice... that is being posted and only bring up the counter point as a topic for disscussion.

Keep up the good stuff!!!!!

[Captain Smollett]

only bring up the counter point as a topic for disscussion.

And the more I think about it, the more I agree that this "meta discussion" is as important as the "advice" given itself.

There are several problems with trying to tell someone 'expectations.'  One is that they won't believe you.  Whether sailing, climbing, hiking, woodworking, whatever.  Some folks think you are just being dramatic.  Sometimes, I guess, that's too true.

I can only answer this kind of thing very personally, and it goes much deeper than "sailing."  The key question for me, personally, is can I be in scary situations (defined in a moment) without panicking?  Can I 'trust the boat' not to capsize when the wind blows her over to 50+ degrees...for example?

For me personally, I can only answer that kind of question by testing myself.  I've been in enough 'scary situations' in my life to know how I react under that kind of stress....most of the time.  Still, it's always an unknown I am not comfortable thinking about..."what if I panic" is one my own personal scariest thoughts/fears.

So, what do I call a "scary situation"?  We of the S/V Gaelic Sea have a saying..."Use Makes Master."  What is scary to us today is less so tomorrow, the next time we face it.  I know sailors that freeze in abject panic if the wind is more than 15 knots; I know others that think sailing in 40 knots is "comfortable."

What is 'scary' is personal and non-static.  Different folks have different thresholds for danger (real and imagined) and different thresholds for fear.

So, when a person posts on the Internet a generic question about sailing in an environment they have never encountered before, I think the natural response is to assume (a) they don't fully understand the kinds of conditions they should expect and (b) their comfort level with danger/fear may well be quite low.

I am trying to separate real danger from emotional fear in the discussion because they are often very different.  Sometimes we have fear when the danger is very, very real.  Other times, there is fear with no real danger.  A boat heeling at 20 degrees is not typically dangerous, but I sure have seen the look of terror on newbie sailors' faces in those conditions.

The opposite of "fear" is confidence...in this example, confidence that the heeling boat won't capsize.  It takes time to work up that trust, but "use makes master."  Most people I've taken sailing "for the first time," take a while to build that trust and gain that confidence.  Once they do, the fear is gone.

They have gained "experience."  They have experienced that the boat won't capsize just because she's heeling 20 degrees.

So, I look at that example and I think, "okay, now multiply that by the 10,000 things I have not learned to trust on the boat yet" and my mind reels.  It makes ME want to experience as much of them, or close models, as I can before committing myself.

Maybe, the best way to answer these kinds of "judgment" questions is to say..."Here's what *I* would do" rather than "what you should do."  

*I* would not (did not) buy a boat and the first day jump aboard and try to sail across an ocean.  Then again, I have crew that trust me to make the decisions for them, so my perspective is different.  Even BE (Before Ensigns), my wife sailed with me, and when we first started talking about crossing the Atlantic for adventure (before we owned our first sail boat), we just had a sense...that for *US*, it would take years to be ready to do that.

That's okay, though...those years of preparatory sailing and learning and gaining experience have been extremely rich in life's experiences and adventures of their own.  We have explored "far off shores" without leaving the sight of land; we have anchored in remote locations, far from other humans.  

I can truly say that I will have no regrets if I never cross an ocean on my own small sail boat.  The journey is the thing....and we have been having quite a journey.

{Musing Mode Off}   ;)

[rorik]

I'm not one to try to stifle dreams. No matter how wild they are. Those dreams are what make the workaday world bearable.
On the other hand, I also don't want to read about one more "unprepared sailor" that the search and rescue teams had to risk their lives trying to find.
To me, announcing that you're going to cross an ocean with no more than maybe a close brush with knowledge is like announcing that you're going to cross a busy street without looking both directions first. Sure, you might make it, but the odds are that you won't.
And then there's the cost.... was an "unprepared sailors" life worth saving at the cost of a trained, prepared SAR team member?
Is it the responsibility of the rest of the citizens of the country who sent the SAR to pay for the "unprepared sailors" lack of knowledge and experience?

In Tania Abei's day, there were no EPIRBS. VHF and SSB, yes, but for the most part, once you left your country's home waters, you were on your own.
You couldn't call 911 and get a ride to the emergency room because you had a canker sore.

There is a great story on Sailing Anarchy about a pretty darn good sailor named Ronnie Simpson who raced a borrowed boat in the Singlehanded TransPac a year or two ago. On the return trip with a friend, the fin keel fell off - 800 miles from San Francisco. He and his friend made it back without outside assistance aside from getting more fuel from a passing ship.
Contrast that with another couple, also mentioned on SA, who got airlifted not once, but twice, because twice their prop either fell off or was damaged (I don't remember the exact details).

And then there are guys like Webb Chiles.
In his 70's, on his 4th(?) solo circumnavigation - no EPIRB. No plans to call for help if things go south.
Why?
Because, as he quotes himself in a foreword to one of his books:
"Live passionately, even if it kills you. Because something is going to kill you anyway.".

[Frank]

All TRUE!  Reading your post reminded me of reading about the OSTAR years ago. I forget if it was Hasler or Chichester...but when asked what they would do if, while out there, their boat was sinking. The responce was ""I have resolved to drown like a gentleman".   Nuff said.

[rorik]

Hasler


http://www.angelfire.com/or/petermarsh/ostar.htm


He defined the prospective race as follows: "A sporting event to encourage the development of boats, gear, supplies and technique for single-handed passages under sail." There was a dramatic lack of rules?no handicaps, no compulsory equipment, no marks to round. When asked about safety and the need to carry a radio transmitter, Hasler merely replied "It would be more seemly to drown like a gentleman."

[Godot]

I like to think I wasn't judging; but throwing out a fair warning. It would be irresponsible, in my eye, to just say "you know how to tack, good enough for me!" I just went through this a couple months ago with the buyer of Godot. Someone once told him that sailing was easy and the best way to learn was by learning on the way.

Well, sailing is easy, and it can be learned on the way. It's been done many times. As I recall, Nick Jaffe just had a couple classes under his belt when he took off for his trip. Tania Abaei had spent time sailing with her family before hand, including across oceans as I recall, but was apparently not the best of students (ah, teenagers) and really didn't start paying attention until the day she took off (without so much as a sea trial).

But, on the other hand, we've had a few people cross our forum with big plans who quit shortly after starting. I remember one gal who was going to make a circumnavigation attempt in a Flicka, as she ended up quiting after some difficulty on her first leg. What ever happened to the guy in the pink Triton who was planning on a non-stop speed record? I'm going to guess that the fantasy was no match for reality.

If someone shows up here I have no interest in squashing dreams or being one of those "you can't do it" people. On the other hand, I can't, in good conscience, just yell "go for it" when it is clear that the person is completely unprepared. The way I figure it, pretty much anybody can do a major trip; but there needs to be a realistic set of expectations of knowledge and skills. I make no claims about being massively experienced, or even being more than an average sailor. But I know what I know, and I have a pretty good idea what I don't know. I just wanted to give the guy an understanding that there is a lot that he doesn't know.

</defensive mode>

[Travelnik]

I didn't get the impression that anyone was judging, preaching, or really nay saying. There was no bashing any dreams, or anything like that.

To me, everyone here was showing a genuine concern.

The community here is much friendlier than CF or SA. (I know that's a big generalization.)

Small Boats, Big Hearts?

[Frank]

"breath in....breath out..."    I just tried to change the name to "Who's to say" . All the advice given here has been exellent!! None was judgemental in ANY WAY!!  
                            I REPEAT...NONE WAS JUDGEMENTAL!!!
I was just hoping to get a exchange going on how so many have gone...and made it! Even the 13ft tinkerbelle made it across the atlantic with the skipper only doing some lake sailing before hand (by failing memory)   I agree with all that was said.  Heh...guess I succeeded in getting a discussion going   :o


911...would a MOD more technically gifted than I please change the wording to "who's to say"

[Captain Smollett]

"breath in....breath out..."    I just tried to change the name to "Who's to say" . All the advice given here has been exellent!! None was judgemental in ANY WAY!!  
                            I REPEAT...NONE WAS JUDGEMENTAL!!!
I was just hoping to get a exchange going on how so many have gone...and made it! Even the 13ft tinkerbelle made it across the atlantic with the skipper only doing some lake sailing before hand (by failing memory)   I agree with all that was said.  Heh...guess I succeeded in getting a discussion going   :o


911...would a MOD more technically gifted than I please change the wording to "who's to say"

Meta to the meta,,,

Each post's subject line has to be changed individually.  I changed mine and yours.  The others can change their if they wish, but not real need to.

FWIW, I think it's a good discussion to have. 

[CharlieJ]

All TRUE!  Reading your post reminded me of reading about the OSTAR years ago. I forget if it was Hasler or Chichester...but when asked what they would do if, while out there, their boat was sinking. The responce was ""I have resolved to drown like a gentleman".   Nuff said.

Hasler

[Mario G]

John you are still mainly responsible for sherry and I moving/living aboard. Its been 2 1/2 years now and so I don't remember what our first expectations where, but we are still out here learning as we go. We elected to learn from others and still we have dealt with some discomforts along the way that I don't think anything but experience could make us understand.

[northoceanbeach]

I understand this is a hard topic, wanting to give realistic expectations without killing dreams.

I've been impressed with the responses to my post so far.  Don't forget that some of the new people, at least myself, aren't totally new.   This is my third boat, although I didn't have the others long based on a weird temporary mooring system in Hawai'i.  I am also doing alot this summer.  I'm leaving tomorrow to start my first big 'cruise' .  I'm leaving to the San Juan Islands, and then up as far as I feel into Canada.  I'm hoping to learn alot of skills that apply to offshore sailing along the way this summer.  I'm pouring through books, practicing things like reefing out in the bay even when it's light.

So, not to make this post about me, but perhaps others are the same, I know alot aren't, but I would just give the best advice you can based on what limited knowledge you can gain from someone from a post.

I would think that the less experienced are also less likely to make the dream a reality, where the ones doing preparation, even like an above poster said, mental preparation are more likely to do it.

It's just a balance for everyone.  Except for a select few, probably raised in sailing families, we have to balance cost and time.  I could get x boat now and learn all I can to make it as capable as possible, or I could save up for boat y, and risk life getting in the way.

[Captain Smollett]

I'm leaving tomorrow to start my first big 'cruise' .  I'm leaving to the San Juan Islands, and then up as far as I feel into Canada. 

Excellent!  Have fun!

I'm hoping to learn alot of skills that apply to offshore sailing along the way this summer.  I'm pouring through books, practicing things like reefing out in the bay even when it's light.

Very cool.

Every moment aboard is "preparation."  Every single moment

[Vega1860]

Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;

Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.

::)

[SalientAngle]

Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;

Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.

::)

more grog !!!

[s/v Faith]

Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;

Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.

::)

There is another sailing related forum I frequent.  There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.

  The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done...  ::)

  Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try...  And stumble.  They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there.  They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...

People who "do" are a real threat to them... And we must be destroyed.

Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).

[Travelnik]

Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;

Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.

::)

There is another sailing related forum I frequent.  There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.

 The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done...  ::)

 Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try...  And stumble.  They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there.  They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...

People who "do" are a real threat to them... And we must be destroyed.

Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).

And most of them have (or claim to have) boats over 40'.

I wonder how many "armchair sailors" really even have boats.  ;)

[Frank]

Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;

Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.

::)

Vega....8 posts and 3 "grogs" gotta be a record!!! I love the post above!!!!    More grog from an proven fool   ;) :o >:( ;D :)