Who's to say?? Offshore for newbie's

[Auspicious]

Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).

Now why do you suppose that sounds familiar? *grin*

[rorik]

Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;

Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.

::)

Vids or it didn't happen..... oh, wait......     ;D ;D ;D

[s/v Faith]

Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).

Now why do you suppose that sounds familiar? *grin*

;D

[Wade]

If a person really intends to go I doubt faceless naysayers would dissuade them.

[Captain Smollett]

If a person really intends to go I doubt faceless naysayers would dissuade them.

I don't know.  There are a LOT of naysayers, and sometimes they don't just say "don't go."  The pressures can be mighty subtle or overt and everything in between.

The very existence of this site was premised on fighting a certain kind of naysaying that HAS destroyed dreams.  Telling people it takes a quarter of a million dollars to buy a boat and another quarter to "properly" outfit it has probably killed more sailing/cruising dreams than we even know.  That kind of "common knowledge," as it's often presented as, very nearly killed MY dreams of cruising.

A few years ago, someone here posted a reference to a site where a cruising couple mentioned on their blog that "cruising" requires a $125,000 boat...minimum.  This was not even offshore cruising crossing oceans, but ICW/Bahamas style cruising ... harbor hopping at best.

The myth exists that it takes a certain amount of money greater than most "dreamers" have, and that myth itself pretty much says, "don't go."  How do people not listen to that, without very specifically looking for another answer?  You sure are not going to find positive encouragement in the sailing rags an many 'cruising' web sites that espouse 40+ footers as MINIMUM cruising boats.

PS: Edit to add that upon rereading this message, the thought hit me that it is at least possible that that myth exists for the express purpose of discouraging dreamers without deep pockets.

[CharlieJ]

[
PS: Edit to add that upon rereading this message, the thought hit me that it is at least possible that that myth exists for the express purpose of discouraging dreamers without deep pockets.

I really don't think that's true. I think the ideas come from the major sailing mags, who after all don't live on subscriptions, How could they possibly based on the very low costs to subscribe. Good Old Boat, who IS subscription based, must charge ten time s what Sail does, just to break even. They (the majors) HAVE to push what the advertisers are selling- and that's high dollar stuff.

In 2 1/2 years "out there" I met many cruisers who were NOT wealthy, and had smaller boats. True, Tehani was almost always the smallest ;) but there were a lot of 30, 32 footers. And NOT gold platers either. Look around the anchorages- after a bit, you learn to spot them-they are out on the edges

We have to just keep beating the drums of simple -SBLD- SOME will hear the beat. Many won't and that's ok too. But there is those few :D


Example- guy just left our marina, heading to Florida. 71 yrs old, single hand, living full time on a Catalina 22!!

Another- another guy, 70 yrs old, living full time (and reworking)on a Beachcomber 26

And some amazing folks, restoring a Westsail 32, while they live aboard!!! And they don't have a bunch of bucks, believe me. But they are ingenious

[Travelnik]

I hope I don't get kicked off the forum for being a heretic because of this, but I just came across a big boat that I really like. I mean I Really, REALLY like it: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1902/Dutch-Canal-Boat-Custom-2445337/San-Pedro/CA/United-States#.UYcCyldRp8E

I could see myself living on that boat for the rest of my life, just cruising the US Gulf and Eastern coasts, as  well as the inland waterways. It would even be nice in the Caribbean.  :)

Maybe I could tow my Nomad behind it?  ;D

[rorik]

If a person really intends to go I doubt faceless naysayers would dissuade them.

I think that there is a line of demarcation, of sorts, between "Someday I want to sail to..." and "I bought a boat!". And another line between that boat purchase and "We're leaving on....".
For a lot of people, getting from "Someday..." to "We're leaving..." is itself a perilous journey, fraught with dragons of doubt, ignorance, lack of skills, money, and other vile creatures.
Sometimes all it takes is one naysaying troll to break the spell.


Travelnik - this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB1QeSro_gI&feature=player_embedded

[Travelnik]

Travelnik - this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB1QeSro_gI&feature=player_embedded

Thank you. I enjoyed that!

I wouldn't have imagined that people would race them. Maybe because I never thought of barges going fast.  :D

[David_Old_Jersey]

It's a tricky line to tread between offering encouragement and some cautions - and sometimes that can get expressed (or read?) badly. Likely if someone is simply after vailidation of a dream they will focus on the negative. But IMO a simple "go for it" is as useless advice as "don't"......the answer involves the person with the dream (with boat or without!) doing a lot of thinking for self, and for that they can use others to throw in ideas, experiances and things to ponder (and if they expect everything they hear on the internet to be useful or true then that is a problem no one else can address for them - the best that should be expected is making own learning curve a bit quicker, less painful and less expensive).....................but no replacement for thinking and puzzling stuff out for self.

The thing with boats is that 99% of stuff can be done - the questions are really around whether "you" can. and whether "you" want to.

The plus with small boats is that odds on that boat size is dictated by budgetary constraints (forced and chosen) - so it forces folks away from the trap that spending money can be a substitute for thinking or knowledge. The downside is of course boat size - bigger can often be better!, at least in comfort....and at sea comfort is a "safety" issue especially when short or singlehanded. Not a bar but certainly a consideration.

Anyway, that's the view from this armchair  ;D

[Captain Smollett]

[
PS: Edit to add that upon rereading this message, the thought hit me that it is at least possible that that myth exists for the express purpose of discouraging dreamers without deep pockets.

I really don't think that's true. I think the ideas come from the major sailing mags, who after all don't live on subscriptions, How could they possibly based on the very low costs to subscribe. Good Old Boat, who IS subscription based, must charge ten time s what Sail does, just to break even. They (the majors) HAVE to push what the advertisers are selling- and that's high dollar stuff.

But, that's exactly my point.  There is a 'force' at work, intentional or not, that pushes spending money as the sole means to an end.

Last year I was at a gathering and overheard part of a conversation between two ladies.  One was telling the other about their preps for 'going cruising,' and the part I heard was "and we bought the right kind of boat...a forty-one footer.'

I cringed.

I knew the second lady, and what I knew of her was that she and her husband were in the market for a boat to go cruising.  They were considering a circumnavigation, actually.  Both parents are "professionals" with largish incomes, and they were struggling with financing their cruise.

And they were CONVINCED that they needed a boat over forty feet and with "all the bells and whistles."  Now, don't get me wrong...they were not just CHOOSING a biggish boat with a lots of trinkets.  My conversations with them revealed that they thought there was No Other Way.

A 30 footer is a "nice little day sailor."

This couple both have good paying jobs.  They were struggling to afford the boat they "needed" AND have the money to take off.  A big part of their "cruising plan" was WORKING...

Not working in the Lin and Larry model...work and save a bit, have fun for a bit, but rather a "work constantly" model.

I have met far more people struggling to meet or are giving up on 'the dream' that are convinced "big is the only way" than the smaller, do-it-with-less folks just getting it done.  On land, the dreamers, seem to me to have bought into the advertising mantra.

My frustration is the adamant resistance I meet when I just mention..."you don't NEED a forty footer with all those 'systems.'"  Usually, they look at me like I have insulting their children AND their mother.

[Grime]

I have a friend that has just made it to Bimini. They are in a Hunter 36 and didn't think it was big enough to sail to the Bahamas.

Long story but the CG wanted to know why a 22' sailboat went to NOLA.

Maybe its the new mine set we have now. Lots of us grew up in less than 1000 sq homes. Today you can't live in one less than 5000sq. Seems to be the same mind set with cruising boats.

[rorik]

There is a lot of "I need all the comforts of home" attitude. "If I can't have a microwave, a shower, two heads so we can get cleaned up at the same time, a longer waterline to get "there" faster, all the conveniences of my 3000 sqft home.... I'm not going. And have you seen the Jones's boat? They have a blah, blah, blah......"
Sometimes it seems the itinerary, and its "required components", are more like a grocery list to be bragged about later, than a journey to see parts of the world they haven't seen before.

I think a lot of people shopping for boats, or talking about dreams, need to read the quote below. Not just because of its message to go, but also its message to go small.



?To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.

"I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? ?
― Sterling Hayden, Wanderer

[David_Old_Jersey]

But, that's exactly my point.  There is a 'force' at work, intentional or not, that pushes spending money as the sole means to an end.

Last year I was at a gathering and overheard part of a conversation between two ladies.  One was telling the other about their preps for 'going cruising,' and the part I heard was "and we bought the right kind of boat...a forty-one footer.'

I cringed.

I knew the second lady, and what I knew of her was that she and her husband were in the market for a boat to go cruising.  They were considering a circumnavigation, actually.  Both parents are "professionals" with largish incomes, and they were struggling with financing their cruise.

I spend most of my time over on CF where folks in this bracket appear more frequently than here on Sailfar. Often enough they are the same folks who come looking for answers and get frustrated to instead be confronted with questions to ask of themselves. My take is that some folks think the answers can be acquired off the shelf whether for free or for cash and no brain required or effort required from self.

Actually sometimes I think I am taking part in a different activity to some. Perhaps I should make messing around in boats a lifestyle? Lol.

[northoceanbeach]

I'm definitely seeing more big boats. Granted I haven't been gone long but the boats at anchor are big.  I don't think I'm in a particularly fancy cruising place though.  But maybe the fancy boats tend to stay more at marinas.  I'm sure if I was between Washington, D.C. And Maine the boats would be a lot nicer.  Iffy now there are 6 boats at anchor. A power boat, me, and four sailboats. If I had to guess I would say 28, 40, 40, 40. They're not shiny new though. Maybe 25,000-80,000$ boats?

I talked to a guy at the dock I stopped at yesterday and told him what I was doing and I think he just took it for granted that I had all sorts of fancy electronics. He asked if I had a chart plotter an I said I it a GPS and he started talking about things I have no idea what he was talking about, but k don't think by GPS he was thinking garmin handheld. 

The world is full of dream killers.  Nobody outside other like minded individuals pushes you to do it, I think you have to fight and try to piece together the truth to what you do and dont need yourself.

I'm not sure which website has the armchair sailors, I'm assuming sailnet, although I would describe them as a mix. If its sailnet I've totem a lot of great info from there.

Sailing should be geared for people 18-50 since I find it so physically challenging, at least with having to do everything myself

[Frank]

18 to 50 eh !!! I guess CJ, myself and others here better hang up our docksiders   ;D ;) :o :( >:(
I know MANY MANY cruising couples in their 60's and 70's.  

[CharlieJ]

18 to 50 eh !!! I guess CJ, myself and others here better hang up our docksiders   ;D ;) :o :( >:(
I know MANY MANY cruising couples in their 60's and 70's.  

I was supposed to quit 22 years ago?? No body told me ;)

[w00dy]

Lol. Grog for that.  ;D

[SalientAngle]

Lol. Grog for that.  ;D

as a 60+ person, I have no intention of packing it in... additional grog, cheers !!!

[Captain Smollett]

If I may paraphrase his point and make it on-topic for this particular discussion...I think there is some merit in telling folks new to sailing in general and especially if they are planning 'offshore' sailing that it can be physically demanding.

I have met a number of power-boaters and 'land lubbers' that seem to think sailing is just sitting there letting the wind blow you around.  At most, it is steering, so how hard can it be?

Again, this is about expectations.  And, again, the incorrect expectation is not helped by the image in the sailing magazine adverts that show nothing but an anchored boat (already anchored) with a bikini clad beauty lounging on the foredeck.  They are selling "vacation."

But, sometimes sailing is "work."  I wrote in my "Living Aboard - The First Year" post a while back that in some ways, living on a boat is not unlike living anywhere else.  The "Different" is largely myth in a lot of ways.  

How many people come to "cruising," even just ICW marina hopping, thinking it is a "luxurious lifestyle of fun and games" and no one told them ahead of time they'd have boat chores to do, repairs to make, laundry, shopping, cooking, cleaning, earning a living, etc....

Reality is not like the pictures in the magazines.

I've met a few...folks that say "this is different than I thought it would be."  They complain about the "work."  I don't think that's out of laziness but out of not expecting it!  

Read a blog a few months back about a young couple that set out on an open ended adventure and this is exactly what happened to them.  Living on a boat was too much like "living" ashore with additional stresses due to weather and the like.

Some stick with it; some rebound, adapt, or always realized this sold myth of the idyllic lifestyle was a farce from the beginning.  Some do not and leave the boat tied alongside to head sadly disillusioned back to the 'life' their friends and family warned them was 'normal' and they should not leave.

One fellow I met even told me one day..."this is not at all what I thought it was going to be."  His boat was being put on the market, if I recall correctly.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, therefore, I think it is important for those that "know" to be as honest as possible with those that do not about what to expect.  I think that's the best gift to give them.  Not false bravado "ah, you can do it," not melodramatic stories of danger or hardship.

Just the simple truth...something the magazines leave out.