Hello, and advice requested

[VJM]

Hi everyone,

I am new and just wanted to introduce myself rather than lurking forever. I have read just about this entire board, and it is an amazing resource. I have been thinking about boats for about five years now, and have progressed from "Must have a fifty foot stinkpot" to "Under thirty feel sailboat with as much simplicity as possible". It has been an interesting mental journey. I am currently infatuated with the Vancouver 25, which checks all my boxes theoretically. Hoping to get to a point where I live aboard while working, take vacations cruising every year, then go cruising as far and as long as I like.

In order to get to that goal, I am getting my financial house in line. Paying off a private educational loan, credit card bills, etc. Then saving for the eventual boat. Because of that, most of my spare change is spoken for. Here is where I need some advice about how to invest wisely in my future sailing plans.

I live in West Palm Beach, Florida. I am single, so no other hearts and minds to consider in all this. I have been sailing, and love it, but not for years. Do not know how to sail, although I have read a bunch. I figure I need to start sailing as soon as finances allow, and I am not sure what is the smartest way to do that. Here are the options:

1. ASA courses at one of several schools. Costs about $600 per class, or $1500 for three classes as a week long liveaboard deal.

2. Join a local sailing club. $1500 for membership for a year, about $1000 every year after. They have a club house, docks, and a fleet of small boats. You get to meet people, crew, borrow small boats for practice, and they have ASA classes as well. Using the boats and ASA classes cost extra. It could be possible to moor a boat on their docks in the future.

3. Rent a dockspace somewhere, buy something really cheap/tiny for $1500 and go sailing. I feel like I would need some safety and navigation training, as well as some private instruction before I was ready to go alone.

What does sailfar have to say about these options? Which one would you choose if your eventual goal was sailing in simplicity and independence?

Thank you all so much for any input you have. Hope to see you out there soon!  Palm Beach county is a big jumping off place for points south, so if you are sailing through, please don't hesitate to let me know if I can help in anyway.

Cheers,

Virginia

[s/v Faith]

Hello and welcome aboard!

  You sure are located in a great place to have this problem!  Many folks sailing though, and quite a community of resources available to you there. 

  I have experience with ASA, they have a good program and I think most folks could benefit from it.  It is funny what you see out on the water, now sometimes there are reasons other then lack of knowledge but I really do think it is worthwhile to have some "structured" learning.    There is a thread here about formal instruction, I will look for it. 


  That said, there is a great benefit to learning by doing.  Getting a small boat to practice on is invaluable, the nice thing about sailfar sized boats is that they are not so large as to deny the feel and feedback so helpful to learning.

  Getting on others boats can be very helpful too.  The problem is that it is not hard to pick up others bad habits or errors this way, but it can be a great way to get experience and exposure to a wide variety of ways to do things.  Obviously, you want to be careful about who's boat you get aboard.  A few years ago I was commodore of our yacht club, and used to advertise that dockawlkers were welcome to come out for our races.  We introduced a lot of folks to sailing that way, and the racers got free crew.  I had to exclude one of our members as he would become abusive when he was not doing well, and loved to blame his errors on his crew.  ::)

  I like to take folks sailing, especially dock walkers who might think "sailing is very technical and a lot of hard work".  It is fun to help them see that any idiot can make the boat go through the water (and proving that at least one idiot does).  :D

[s/v Faith]

A coupe links;

Education (or some variation on that spelling)

[skylark]

Virginia, Welcome

Regarding getting financials in order, I recommend Early Retirement Extreme, http://earlyretirementextreme.com/
The book is good but if you go through the 21 day makeover at the bottom left of the page, you will get all the info you need. 

The ASA courses are a good way to learn sailing and meet people.  I think the week long course would be the way to go, although you might want to do a short course first to see if you like it. 

I would recommend NOT buying a boat until you are financially ready to take a long tour.  Buy the boat a year before you plan to leave and get it ready.  The exception would be if you can find a cheap daysailer, something like a Laser or other small racing dinghy.  You will learn sailing very quickly on a sailing dinghy.

[VJM]

Thank you both so much! And what a great link on money matters. I will be sure to go over it.

I think the sailing club is making the most sense to me, surprisingly. It seemed like an uneccessary expense, but in thinking about your answers, it may be the most complete solution. At the very least, I can bum rides on other people's boats, crew for races, and practice on their small boats. It would make it possible to dock a beginner boat like a Montgomery if I decided to do that. And their ASA course are the cheapest I can find.

Still mulling over all the options, so if you have an opinion please share!

[John Bailey]

Finances -- Get Dave Ramsey's book Total Money Makeover.  It's a winner, but will require you to forego many of the niceties that you now enjoy until you have the money for your dream.

Sailing -- Get a copy of "The Cruising Life" by Jim Trefethen.  It's my favorite practical guide to preparing for, and going on the cruising life.

Personally, I think all your options will hold you back financially.  Both Trefethen and Ramsey would suggest not to buy a boat or spend money on sailing until it's time to go.  If you must buy something to get on the water, get a 12-15' sail and oar boat on a trailer.  Won't need to pay for a dock or mooring, won't need to worry about a motor and you'll learn a lot about actually sailing.

I would guess that where you live, you would probably be able to meet people that you could "bum" rides without having to join the club.

Good luck!  Sounds like you're in a good position to make it happen.

John

[David_Old_Jersey]

Firstly, welcome to SF (and the world of boats!).

Secondly, some good questions and clearly thought through - plus a recognition of own limitations.........good signs that you will get where you are going. No guarantee! - but a good sign  ;D.

With most things boat related there is no "best" (that suits all), indeed the confusion (and the enjoyment!) comes from having so many choices, few of which are perfect  :P - with only you getting to live with the results of your choices......some folks like that, some don't.

All your choices have merit - indeed an argument for saying do all 3!.....but for most of us budget does come into our choices. Me is not a club type person, so that would rule out option 2 from the getgo. But if you like clubs then that would be the obvious choice.

But if the club is only a means to an end (if you had a boat already and were good to go - would you join one?) then I would go for the week long ASA course, apart from the cert (a piece of paper useful in the modern world) it should give you a firm grasp of your unknowns! plus enough knowledge to get you out of the dock and around the bay.......and IMO that is all yer need before buying own boat! (as long as the second voyage is not around cape horn!)......IMO no substitute for learning hands on as capt of own boat, no matter the size or value (I would go for around 20 foot, with an O/b and basic). Unless you are boating somewhere remote then having own boat will get you into the "club" of fellow boat owners, and from that much advice (not all of which will be good!) and offers for trips out (willing to put hand in pocket helps get invited back!). Sailing is the easy bit to learn (at least  to get started), being a Capt (the glug stops here!) and a boat owner (boat maintainer!) are different skills.

But as I said, lots of choices and no "best" way......for many things with boats their is simply narrowing the options (as you have) and then taking a punt  :) .

[CharlieJ]

We need a devilish icon ;D ;D

Or hey- I'm looking for a cruising partner, on  a well traveled 25 footer ;D

And I CAN teach sailing too.

Seriously, you've got a decent set of parameters, and as others have said, you have to decide which is best, for YOU.

I'd also recommend another book- "Voyaging on a Small Income" by Annie Hill

and just don't give up-

live your dream, don't dream your life

[Frank]

There is a wonderful book that although the original addition is a bit dated, makes more sense now than ever. It will help you manage money as well as look at you life differently as well.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0143115766?ie=UTF8&tag=yomooryoli-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0143115766
"your money or your life"

Lots of "used books" available cheap.

Anytime you can get to crew on a racing boat will be time well spent. It's fun and you will get to understand sailing. That experience will help a lot while cruising.

I know the liveaboard-cruiser lifestyle can be done very well on a modest budjet.

Enjoy the learning curve  

PS....I've passed though Lake Worth inlet many times. Had many a drink at the Tiki restaurant at Riviera Beach Marina listening to the musicians as well. That is one of the best inlets to make after dark!

PSS....Take CJ up on sailing lessons. "will teach for rum"   ;)

[VJM]

Thanks for the input David, Charlie, and Frank! Most appreciated.

Charlie, anytime you want to come to Florida and teach me how to sail, I will buy the rum.

It has been such an interesting journey so far. I don't even have a boat yet, and sailing has already made me really reevaluate my life, my priorities, and get financial responsible. The learning curve is very enjoyable, and I am glad (in a way) that I need to take some time to pay off educational debt, because I can really reflect on what the best way for me to go about this is. Having said that, I am focusing on some basic lessons around July or so. I tend to get bored without new challenges, and sailing seems to have a never ending supply of those.

Fantastic suggestions on books from all of you! My local library is amazing, and reading is definitely one thing I can do right now. Annie Hall's book is a big favorite of mine, as is the Cost Conscious Cruiser, and Sensible Cruising: the Thoreau Approach. I am currently making my way through Beth Leonard's book (Christmas present), and really enjoying it. My Kindle is awash with sailing and voyaging and liveaboard books, and I managed to find a few that were written by female singlehanders. Seems to be very few out there.

Frank, that tiki bar is one of my favorite stops on the way home after work. Fantastic Bahama Mamas, and quite "boaty", along with the Square Grouper up in Jupiter, and Old Key Lime House in Lantana.

Hope you all had lovey holidays, and thank you again for all your thoughts. Very helpful, and much appreciated.

[Captain Smollett]

What does sailfar have to say about these options? Which one would you choose if your eventual goal was sailing in simplicity and independence?

Hi Virginia, and welcome to sailfar. 

I find these kinds of threads very encouraging and refreshing.  Safety in numbers, or something like that.   ;)

I don't necessarily think your options are 'either or.'  When I lived aboard, there were quite a number of liveaboards at our marina that (a) did not know how to sail and/or (b) knew nothing about boats.  Sadly, none of those in the latter group really wanted to learn.

So, let's say you buy a boat and move aboard...by wanting to learn, you are already ahead of that group.

Every minute you read or converse about boats and sailing is valuable.  Every moment ON a boat, sailing or not, is learning and valuable if the mind is open to whatever lessons are there to be learned.

I've taken a lot of first time sailors for their first sail, and I love doing this...I love to witness the look on their face the first time they take the tiller.  I've also been involved in coaching 7-14 year olds.  As I like to tell people, you can learn the basic mechanics of sailing in a day...but you spend the rest of your life improving (continuing ed).  Don't let people (of the naysayer ilk) tell you it's hard or complicated or that you HAVE to follow a single certain path to success.

That said, formal instruction is a HUGE plus and will likely save some time and frustration. I'd say go sailing with "good" sailors and learn from them, whether they are formal, hired instructors or not.  It may take time to build that level of trust, though.

[VJM]

I have been turning over your comments over the holiday break, Captain Smollett. Very thought provoking. Thank you so much for that perspective.

New plan (at least for the moment) is to take some classes like ASA 101 and 103, some navigational stuff, and then just go ahead and buy a boat and move onboard. Then some more lessons on my boat until I have the basics, and I am set to at least start noodling around every chance I get.

Finances come first, but that plan seems to resonate with me more than anything else. It's going to be a slog to get there, but I think it is worth it.

Today's boat infatuation is the Bayfield 29. I had passed them by because of the common wheel steering, but took another look and got all excited. Seems like a good contender for living aboard, goofing around Florida coast and the Keys and the Bahamas, and maybe further one day.

It is an interesting process that requires a lot of reflection and honesty in evaluating one's needs/wants/abilities.

[CharlieJ]

The Bayfield 29, or even the 25, would make a quite comfortable liveaboard.

Not a speed burner, but a good solid boat.

I rebuilt a 23 for a customer a few years. Basically same boat as a 25, with some underwater differences.

But the 29 would be a good choice

[Frank]

The 29 is a very nice all around cruiser. Shallow draft, open interior and a good rig. Hard to beat for the price of a nice used one.

[Godot]

When boat searching last year I looked at two Bayfield 29s (I purchased one). Both had tiller steering, so you can probably find one without a wheel.

It is comfortable. There is no v-berth, so no separate sleeping cabin. Think of it as a studio apartment instead of a one bedroom. Given the size, that makes sense. The head is quite comfortable at anchor. Being all the way in the bow it has more motion when underway. We still use it, though, even when the Chesapeake is lumpy.

I bought mine as a liveaboard. As luck would have it, I have a new gal and spend most nights at her place. I do try and spend at least one or two nights a week aboard, though. I find it pretty comfortable.

Negative points: The salon seats are too narrow. I've removed the seat backs, which seems to make things more comfortable, even without something to lean back against. I leave the starboard berth pulled out as a double all the time and use it as my permanent bunk.

The cabin table is a bit too large and it gets in the way. I'm going to try and cut it down some this winter and see if that makes moving around a bit easier.

The head door is a bit intrusive in the cabin. Given that the forehatch is in the head, this door is best left open most of the time. I removed mine and replaced it with a curtain. I'm happy with the results.

The galley doesn't have a gimballed stove and is a bit small. Works OK, though.

In the winter the keel stepped mast sucks a lot of heat out of the cabin. Easily solved by wrapping a camping pad around it.

Only twenty gallons of water. It shouldn't be too difficult, though, to install another water tank at the expense of stowage.

She backs poorly (full keel).

If you plan on racing, you should also plan on losing.

The Good:

Engine access is very good.

The boat is generally quite comfortable.

I love the head.

She is quite comfortable under sail, even in lumpy conditions.


Really, I love the beast. Somewhere on here I have a more indepth review from a couple weeks after I first purchased her. I'm happy to answer any questions I can.

[VJM]

I was hoping you would weigh in, Adam! I have read your boat purchase thread, and your website. Thanks for putting so much info out there for folks to benefit from.

You hit a lot of the reasons I am really attracted to the Bayfield for live aboard purposes in Florida. A lot of commentary on Gozzard boats seems very focused on the "fake gingerbread" looks (not my opinion), and seems to miss that he wrapped one of the most innovative interiors up in a traditional exterior. I love it!

I joined the yahoo group for Bayfield's, so that gives me a good source of info to mine. Maybe I can find someone down here who has one, and mooch a ride for the price of a picnic and some good beer.

What do you think about upwind performance? I am not terribly worried about fast, and don't have any plans to plot routes that involves significant upwind bashes. However, I am well aware that s*%t happens. The cutter rig seems kind of delightful for some of our light wind periods.

And for everyone else, a million thanks again. The sailing I want to do makes no sense to most people, and it is nice to find like minded souls.

Figured since I have at least a two year wait before I buy something, I would work on whatever I can. Exploring traditional navigation, chart reading, celestial nav right now. I know GPS is the primary nav source for most folks, but Steve Callahan's "Adrift" really gave me pause. It is important to me to be as low tech and independent as possible with survival related stuff. It also builds my confidence and keeps me actively pursuing my goal, instead of just dreaming along.

[Godot]

She seems to do OK to weather. I'm thinking of getting a new main sail in the next year or so and expect that to help even further.

A lot of people have complained that the Bayfield is something of a slug. Now, I haven't sailed all that many different boats; but she seems to do well enough most of the time. Upwind in very light wind is a bit frustrating (as is downwind without a spinnaker...I have an asym spinnaker that saves lots of aggravation and diesel fuel); but I sometimes sail then, too, just for the challenge (really improves seamanship). Other times I fire up the diesel. When the wind gets above fifteen knots or so I frequently find myself passing larger performance boats. I half suspect the reason is that the Bayfield handles moderate wind (say, fifteen to thirty knots) quite comfortably, while the performance boats are a lot more active, encouraging a smaller spread of sail. Just a guess, though.

The cutter can be a pain when short tacking. Tack the staysail first, though, and the jib will backfill a bit and then blow through the slot without too much drama when you get to it. The jib is less enthusiastic about going through the slot when jibing. Not that big a deal in the end, though.

I've had her out in the low thirties. Not comfortable; but safe enough. The Chesapeake is rather shallow so things can get lumpy. I suspect, but have not yet proven, that forty knots is within the operating envelope of this boat. Much more than that I think I'd probably be heaving to or doing other storm tactics. She is still a small boat, after all.

I think this boat can take me wherever I want to go.

Regards the sextant: Now-a-days I wouldn't put a lot of value on learning to use one, and would spend my time and money on other upgrades/skills (if Steve Callahan had a modern EPIRB, we probably wouldn't know his name). A  spare alkaline powered handheld GPS units would be much more cost effective. That is, unless you want to learn for the sake of learning. Or your personal risk assessment of world events suggests to you that a loss of the GPS spectrum is more likely than you feel comfortable with.

[VJM]

Great info, thank you so much.

[David_Old_Jersey]

New plan (at least for the moment) is to take some classes like ASA 101 and 103, some navigational stuff, and then just go ahead and buy a boat and move onboard. Then some more lessons on my boat until I have the basics, and I am set to at least start noodling around every chance I get.

Given that the finances not yet in place then sounds like an excellent plan. The Navigational stuff will be very useful to learn - and apart from a class (for ease of learning) and a book then the cost of materials to learn old school is very cheap. It just takes time and practice....the learning though is easy enough........the hard part is doing the navigation when cold, wet, tired, scared and bouncing around! - hence the rise of the chartplotter!.......but knowing the fundamentals well (from practice, practice, practice) means the chartplotter is a Nav tool (of many) and not the substitute for Navigation (only a person can navigate a boat - an electronic gizmo can only say where it is and drive the boat accordingly - a person can also look out of the window and see things which aren't meant to be there! as well as inherently know when 2+2 equal 5  ::)).

Astro is a trickier subject - on my to do list, likely will stay there!........but if you have a bent towards stuff like that then IMO a good idea.....even if only for bragging rights at the bar!

The only thing I would add to your list is to try and get involved with folks who have boats - being willing to put hand in pocket for beer and / or muck in for unpleasant jobs (antifouling / cleaning / polishing) will bump you up the list of valued crew member (what you find is that lots of boats have one person as captain and an extra pair of hands whilst not essential is handy - pleasant company and bringing the odd gift (beer or food - afloat or ashore) makes a difference.....and once on one boat then invites (self invites) onto others is a lot easier from a boat than from the dock as you are seen as in the "Club".

[VJM]

Thank you so much, David! I am really interested in being, at least theoretically, energy independent on emergency systems. If I never have to use it in an emergency, that is totally fine by me. I find it all really interesting. It makes me feel connected to the long history of all the people who have pushed off from shore in small boats.

You all have been so positive and inspiring, that I decided to take on a second job and knock out this debt ASAP so I can get sailing. I was pretty resistant to the idea, because I did this when I put myself through undergrad and it is quite a commitment. However, I can't ignore what a boon it will be to be debt free and sitting on a boat I own.

In the meantime, I will try to weasel my way onto boats through bribery with picnics, picking up bar tabs, and beer. Wish me luck!