Vee-Berth Blues....

[DarrenC]

Jim - I almost feel guilty for putting you to so much work!

Great insight and CAD work!   Man, I admire folks with talent...

[Jim_ME]

Thanks, and you're welcome, Darren. No obligations.  ;)

I enjoy discussing design issues and interesting challenges here, and it's easiest to express them graphically.

[Jim_ME]

Have been continuing to think about this, and will share those thoughts, FWIW...

Without intending to sound too critical of the Annapolis 26, one idea for a cautious approach might be to hold off on the modification of the bulkhead for some period of time, to make sure that the other aspects of the boat will suit you over the long term. It's not uncommon for those that are new to cruising to go through a few boats in practice in order to find one that is a good fit. Since you are so tall, Darren (I think 6'-4" is at the upper 2 percentile), you have special needs in a boat that many designers may not try to accommodate in general.

As I think Charlie mentioned, having the ability to stand up in a boat's main cabin, is an important cruising feature for many people. CJ has also written about how this need may "depend" on the owners' heights, and that one reason that he has been content with the Meridian 25 is that he has sufficient headroom. Maybe since you are so tall, it is unlikely that most 25/26/27-foot boats are going to accommodate you well.

I was looking at an ad for an Alberg 30 for sale for $5k that described the main cabin headroom as being 6'-5" (Perhaps John could confirm this).

There are other features that a boat like the A30 has that many cruisers come to prefer over time including the heavier displacement/motion comfort, full keel (will track and heave-to well, important features), attached/protected rudder (very strong design), and just the overall extremely rugged construction of an A30 (or similar boat).

The other potential problem is that custom modifications that you do make for your use may not add much resale value for the average (5'-9.5" tall) buyer, and could easily detract if not done well. That may well be a perfectly good layout and bulkhead for average-height owners.

Maybe an interim plan would be to modify the current boat's main cabin settee berth to make it extend into a double berth for now (along the lines of what Rorik already suggested). Plan to use the boat like that for a couple seasons, and to evaluate whether it is a boat you will be happy with for the long term--or whether because of the forward cabin/V-berth shortcomings, and other issues, it is not going to work out, and be worth investing modifications into.

If you got the Annapolis 26 for a great price, the good news is that you should be in a good position to resell that boat for what you have invested (possibly even more), and reinvest in a long-term one. One thing worse than deciding to find a different boat, is to put a lot of effort and expense into the current one only to discover that you can't make it into what you need, and then have to find another boat anyway (and try to recover the fruitless investments in the old one).

[Captain Smollett]

I was looking at an ad for an Alberg 30 for sale for $5k that described the main cabin headroom as being 6'-5" (Perhaps John could confirm this).

Hmmm, not if it's stock.

There are two main version of the Alberg 30, and a bunch of boats that are "transition" boats.  And, add to that, they were all essentially "custom built" in some fashion, so there is a LOT of variation.

That said, we'll go with the two main classes, typically called "pre-liner" and "liner."  The transition was not a hard break, but was around 1970. Some transition boats around that period had features of both.

The pre-liner boats had about 6' or 6'-1" of headroom.  The liner boats have about 1-2" (or so) less due to the liner.  I'm 5-10 and walk comfortably, even with a hat on, inside our liner boat.

All that said, if the boat was a pre-liner boat and an owner (or even the factory at the request of an owner it was being built for) lowered the sole, I suppose it's possible that one could get a few extra inches out of headroom.

I'd have to ask those that know the pre-liner boats better than I do if it would be possible to get five full inches, however.  From what I gather, that would be quite a stretch.

In any case, I think it's going to be a rare "Small Boat" indeed that offers over 6' headroom.

I do know one South African dude that has been a full time cruiser (and multiple ocean crosser) since the early 1990's, and he's taller than me; I'd put him at at least 6' and maybe a touch over.  His boat was a Camper Nicholson 31 that he bought bare hull and finished himself way back when.  I don't know if he could stand up inside, but knowing him, I doubt he'd cut that particular corner of comfort and safety (in terms of preventing fatigue), so, I'd say it's certainly possible.

[Jim_ME]

Here's the ad...(not far from you, John)
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/boa/4379771660.html

Maybe the seller could be measuring to the underside of closed sliding companionway hatch? That is where you would be standing while at the galley, which is handy.

I believe that my Contest 30 had 6'-2" or so headroom in the main cabin. I think that the Allied Seawind 31 also does.

My friend's Cape Dory 30 also seemed to have a good deal of headroom.

How about your Cape dory 28, Rorik? These are a bit later Alberg cabin trunks, without the stepped form.

I expect that the V-berths in these boats may also be longer, with larger forward cabins.

[Captain Smollett]

Here's the ad...(not far from you, John)
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/boa/4379771660.html

Maybe the seller could be measuring to the underside of closed sliding companionway hatch? That is where you would be standing while at the galley, which is handy.

That's a good point; there's a good extra few inches there.  But, with 'headroom,' I think of it in terms of moving around the cabin, getting out of the bunk and standing (while still sleepy, etc), so ...

And, just for completeness, that's a pre-liner boat, so it would have the extra couple of inches of head room compared to my boat.

Another way to tell it's the 'old style' is in one photo, you can see the vertical door to the ice box, which was built to be accessible from both cabin and cockpit.  The newer "liner" boats have a top access ice box at the aft end of the port settee.

There are a bunch of other details, some that matter a lot for blue water, between the two models.

Back on the head room topic...I'm not sure someone 6'-2" would be comfy standing / moving around in an A-30 cabin.  That step-down is right at (actually aft slightly) the main bulkhead, so the head (for example) is the lower cabin height.  I don't know...I think if it were me, I'd want to "live" on one for at least a weekend to see how it worked out before making a commitment. 

And, I know the main cabin settees are right at about 72" near as I can remember.  I think I've measured mine.  In any case, I know that sleeping, I did not feel like I had huge excesses of room.  I guess some cabin mods could be done to fix that, however.

To compare to the 30's you mention with more headroom, keep in mind the A-30 has very low freeboard and not much hull depth for a 30 footer.  She's sleek like a shark. ;D

It almost breaks my heart to say this...haha ... but an Alberg 30 may not be a good match for someone a few inches over 6 feet.

[Jim_ME]

It almost breaks my heart to say this...haha ... but an Alberg 30 may not be a good match for someone a few inches over 6 feet.

Tis sad...there seem to be some A30 deals out there  :'(

Maybe one of the others then... 

[s/v Faith]

It almost breaks my heart to say this...haha ... but an Alberg 30 may not be a good match for someone a few inches over 6 feet.

Tis sad...there seem to be some A30 deals out there  :'(

Maybe one of the others then... 

Fwiw,

  I find the "pre liner" Alberg 30s (like Johns) to be nicer then the later boats.  I is a not unlikely that the sole might have been lowered to gain a couple of inches....  It woud drop rather quickly with a relatively modest reduction in size because of the turn of the bilge at the level of the sole.....

  There are a couple of Ariel's that I know of that have also had their sole lowered to gain a bit more headroom (although they have a fairly extrodinary amout of headroom for their size)...

  Being 5'10" I find the Ariel just about perfect for me.

[DarrenC]

As big a concession as it is to make, i already resigned myself to the fact that if I wanted to get out there now I was going to have to give up on the idea of standing headroom. The only sailboats i have been able to confidently and comfortably stand completely straight in without compromise were 34 feet and larger - exponentially more complicated and financially way beyond reach. Sad, but it is what it is. I can do nothing about my height or my budget, so the compromise had to come somewhere.

Now, if i magically woke up one morning without budgetary concerns,  that would be a different story altogether. Man, do i have some ideas....  :)

[CharlieJ]

It almost breaks my heart to say this...haha ... but an Alberg 30 may not be a good match for someone a few inches over 6 feet.

Tis sad...there seem to be some A30 deals out there  :'(

Maybe one of the others then... 

Fwiw,

  I find the "pre liner" Alberg 30s (like Johns) to be nicer then the later boats.  I is a not unlikely that the sole might have been lowered to gain a couple of inches....  It woud drop rather quickly with a relatively modest reduction in size because of the turn of the bilge at the level of the sole.....

  There are a couple of Ariel's that I know of that have also had their sole lowered to gain a bit more headroom (although they have a fairly extrodinary amout of headroom for their size)...

  Being 5'10" I find the Ariel just about perfect for me.

Lowering the sole in Tehani gave me about an inch and a half more headroom.

[Captain Smollett]

  I find the "pre liner" Alberg 30s (like Johns) to be nicer then the later boats. 

For the record, my boat is a "liner" boat, built in 1972.

It's funny, though.  I once got into an argument with a lady who swore up and down that my boat had the "wrong" kind of something on it for a liner boat.  I tried to explain to her that in some respects, all A-30's are unique, and there's some 'cross over' between the styles.

[Frank]

I may be wrong here...it happens often...but didn't Whitby switch from cast to lead ballast at one point and lower the sole for more headroom as well??

[Captain Smollett]

I may be wrong here...it happens often...but didn't Whitby switch from cast to lead ballast at one point and lower the sole for more headroom as well??

Alberg drew the boat based on lead ballast, but Whitby built with cast iron to save money.  So far as I know, that switch was from the beginning of production.

There is at least one boat with lead ballast, though, #78.  After building that boat custom for the customer, Kurt Hanson (of Whitby) said he would not do another...info per the A-30 site.

It's my understanding that the entire production run, with the exception of custom ordered #78, was ballasted with cast iron.

[Jim_ME]

Lowering the sole in Tehani gave me about an inch and a half more headroom.

Charlie, I did think about what you had done with Tehani to lower the cabin sole, and nearly mentioned that it seemed like an option. My concern would be that while you have plenty of experience about all the other aspects of your boat to know without a doubt that it will meet your needs, and the work that you do will not be a bad investment. (Also, since you have the advantage of being a boatbuilder by trade, it is an investment that comes at a lower cost than for Darren.) That is unlikely to be the case for someone that is new to cruising, boats, and working on them. 

[Jim_ME]

As big a concession as it is to make, i already resigned myself to the fact that if I wanted to get out there now I was going to have to give up on the idea of standing headroom. The only sailboats i have been able to confidently and comfortably stand completely straight in without compromise were 34 feet and larger - exponentially more complicated and financially way beyond reach. Sad, but it is what it is. I can do nothing about my height or my budget, so the compromise had to come somewhere.

Now, if i magically woke up one morning without budgetary concerns,  that would be a different story altogether. Man, do i have some ideas....  :)

Darren, my intent was not in any way to discourage you from getting out there now on the boat that you have. It was only to suggest that you might want to hold off on modifying the forward cabin/bulkhead etc. and use that as it is for now (perhaps for a couple seasons, as I wrote), and maybe instead do a simple modification the main cabin berth so that it can function as a double berth, if you need one that is more convenient than the current V-berth.

Again, those who are new to boating often get one kind of boat initially and, as they get more experience and learn what their unique priorities are (and what kind of cruising you will actually be doing), find that they want to trade for a different type of boat. I certainly have done this, and know enough others who have to know that it is very a common process.

The concern is that if you don't anticipate this, you could invest a lot in your current boat to try to adapt it to your needs, and easily later discover that it is not suited to your actual future needs for unrelated reasons in more general ways (I gave a couple examples previously, such as a full-keel vs short fin keel design).

It may be that a 26-foot/5,000-lb 6-foot headroom boat is something that is going to be a difficult proposition to make work long-term in general for anyone who is 6'-4" tall.

I am not sure that your choice necessarily has to only be to jump in size and budget from your current boat to a 34-foot one. I believe you will have more options in between. You may not be able to find another boat that gives you complete standing headroom, but that does solve your V-berth issue (and has other features that you may want, but will only discover with experience).

My advice would be to by all means, get out there and use and enjoy the boat you have, but to keep in mind that it is likely to be a boat that you will outgrow (possibly fairly soon), and to make any investments in modifying the boat accordingly, with resale value a major consideration. Invest some time while you are using your current boat to continue to explore other affordable boat options for the future. A boat that may be worth modifying to suit you (including things like possibly lowering the cabin sole) because the other features it has are ones that you will be happy with long-term. The example of the Alberg 30, although it may not be that boat for you, may be encouraging in that there are very well regarded 30-foot/9,000-pound boats out there for sale for an asking price of $4000 (albeit, needing some work).

What is more important than any one particular boat is that your enjoyment of sailing and cruising grows and endures.

[CharlieJ]

Lowering the sole in Tehani gave me about an inch and a half more headroom.

Charlie, I did think about what you had done with Tehani to lower the cabin sole, and nearly mentioned that it seemed like an option. My concern would be that while you have plenty of experience about all the other aspects of your boat to know without a doubt that it will meet your needs, and the work that you do will not be a bad investment. (Also, since you have the advantage of being a boatbuilder by trade, it is an investment that comes at a lower cost than for Darren.) That is unlikely to be the case for someone that is new to cruising, boats, and working on them. 

Oh, yes. I know that. I was just adding to the previous comments about lowering the sole on a boat.

In fact, on Tehani it was REALLY done so I could access the keel bolts- they were under a glassed in fiberglassed sole, and could not even be seen, much less checked, with that in there. While I  had it out, I discovered the original installation had huge globs of resin covering the  bolts. I removed that so I could check the bolts, added some new bolts, added some new floors, at a much lower level, and so the original sole wouldn't work anymore. Gaining the head room was incidental in this case.

By the way- originally there were nine keel bolts.. I added 12 new ones, so the keel is now held with 21 bolts :D

[Jim_ME]

Oh, yes. I know that. I was just adding to the previous comments about lowering the sole on a boat.

Of course.  :) I meant to acknowledge the idea of lowering the sole to you Charlie, but meant to direct the question (or doubt about) its applicability to any (possibly short-term) boat to Darren, but failed to start a new paragraph and to address it to him, and ran together what should have been separate.  

[Jim_ME]

While you are using your current boat, you have the advantage of being able to take your time to be creative on the budget aspect and find a good deal.

For instance there was (what looked like) a decent Alberg 30 for sale a year or two ago near Annapolis for $1500. Maybe 10 years ago there was another A30 local to me, that had come off its mooring in a storm and was damaged (rudder, scraped keel, rub rails, stanchions). I went to look at the boat and appreciated what a beautiful boat it was--even banged up. It was on eBay and though I wasn't sure that I needed to move up to a boat that size, I bid about $800. Someone else won it for about $850.

One example of a feature that might be improvement for some, even if not the total leap to full standing headroom throughout the main cabin, is something like having a built-in galley located aft where you can stand under the maximum available height at the companionway sliding hatch (either closed or open). When the galley is located at the forward end of the cabin, it's not under the hatch, and often the cabin trunk begins to step down there reducing headroom further.

In addition to any headroom benefits, having the galley aft allows the cook to hand food directly out the companionway for dining in the cockpit. Others can hand dishes back in, or place them in the sink from the cockpit, or reach in and grab some more food. Any heat from cooking can rise and escape through the open hatch, rather than heating up the whole cabin.

[DarrenC]

Jim - methinks you spend entirely too much time uneccessarily explaining yourself. Youre a decent guy with great ideas and i don't think anyone in this group would suspect you of intentionally malicious content. You're among friends here - relax a little  ;D

I totally agree with you on the galley to the aft. During Carita's mystery refit someone made a significant investment in a long teak galley along the starboard side. Its comfortable enough to sit on the port bench and cook, although standing in the companionway would be much more sensible, and having opposing settees that i could drop an infill between for a big rectangular bed would be fantastic.

[Jim_ME]

Jim - methinks you spend entirely too much time uneccessarily explaining yourself. Y

Thanks, but it was sloppy writing on my part. Had to let Charlie know that I know he already knew that.  :)