Choosing a boat

[PattyLee]

Hello Everyone.
    Thank you for letting us participate at Sailfair.  Hope someday we can contribute info to future wannabe boaters.
For now, we are the seekers of information.
    Thanks to Ed Robinson, author of "Leap of Faith/Quit Your Job, Live on a Boat," our lives all of a sudden have a new direction. Chris and I (Pat) are at the very beginning..still have obligations like an elderly parent, working, everything is paid for, just have to get rid of it all.  They say dreamers are doers, so I think we are headed in the right direction anyway.
    What kind of boat do we want is the BIG question. After visiting the Miami Boat Show last month, we at least know the boat will not be new. So do we want a monohull or a motor driven boat, such as a trawler?  Would love to hear pros and cons of both.  Personally a 37 ft cat would make me very happy, but way too pricey.
    Looking forward to hearing about your opinions and ideas.  Pat
 

[Godot]

While you have pressing obligations, you've got time.

As I understand your post, you are first time boaters. Are you looking to cross oceans? Hop up and down the coast to the Bahamas? Circumnavigate? Not sure? Everyone's needs are different. We all have different desires, budgets, and abilities. The trick is to find what works well for you.

I strongly suggest not trying to find the perfect boat to start. You don't really know your requirements and needs yet. Buy something smallish and affordable. It doesn't have to be terribly pretty; but it should be basically sound and have a cabin with bunks, galleys and head. Then learn to sail. Most people I know are self taught (much safer and easier on a small boat); but if it is in the budget you will get a pretty good head start (and probably make fewer bad habits) by taking a class.

Then you sail. At first perhaps for a few hours at a time; but definitely try and do some cruising, even if just for a weekends and the occasional week or two vacation at a time. The idea is to find out 1) if you like sailing, 2) if you like cruising, 3) what do you really need to be happy doing both. If sailing is not for you, it's better to find out after spending a couple thousand dollars for a boat (which you will likely get back when you sell) as opposed to tens of thousands of dollars. Try to sail on other peoples boats as well, preferably boats that are different (fin keel opposed to full keel, monohull opposed to multi, power vs. sail, etc...).

Resist the need to get every convenience under the sun. Gimmicks and gadgetry are addictive. This is a small boat site, with fairly strong KISS leanings. While I'm not one to tell you what you don't need, and certainly I won't tell you what you don't want, it is probably a better idea to start very simple and add complications gradually after lots of thought and research. The less you have, the easier and less expensive your life will be.

(FWIW, I'm still in the prep stage myself. I've got a pretty nice boat and sail six or seven hundred miles a year up and down the Chesapeake. I'm getting ever closer to my day of freedom, although it is taking me longer than I had anticipated...)

[Kettlewell]

Godot has provided some very good advice. I would add that you also need to consider where you will be keeping the boat if you are unable to leave soon. In other words, if you will mainly be tied to a dock maybe a big old stinkpot would be best--lots of room, cheap to own if you aren't burning fuel, easy to find used, etc. If you are planning on eventually going far afield your requirements become much more critical and you won't know enough at this stage to make the right choices. Also, much of Florida is shallow, so don't buy a deep-keel boat from the north that you can't use locally. Some areas in the U.S. have very expensive dock prices, like New England, so plan on that or maybe keep your boat on a mooring. By the way, there are some older cats available that are good boats you might look into, like used Prouts and Catalacs. Sure, they will require elbow-grease to bring up to snuff and they are not as huge inside as modern boats, but they have proven themselves to be seaworthy and capable.

[CharlieJ]

Been pretty well covered, but I'd add this.

Lived aboard and cruised a 35 foot trimaran some years ago. Now cruise Tehani, a 25 footer. Quite a few thousand miles last 5-6 years

Reason?

The tri required a ton of maintenance - more than I wanted to fool with

a 35 foot cat would be a BIG job to maintain . Few who sail boats that size do the maintenance them selves, and paying someone else is NOT cheap. If you have the bucks, for sure go for it. If not, look smaller. Something JUST big enough.


Smaller boats = smaller, lighter (cheaper) gear and way less maintenance.

You do NOT want to  be the boat, sitting in east podunk, waiting on some expensive part to be flown in, gotten through customs, and installed, while the cruising time drains away. Takes the fun out :D

[PattyLee]

Wow!!! You guys are fantastic!!  Ok, here's the del.  We are almost retirement age and the money pockets are not that deep. We don't want to be a slave to our boat, just as we have never been a slave to our house.  As long as it doesn't leak, sink or stink too badly, it's an option.
I spent a week on a Leopard 47 in the BVI's (my 60th birthday present from my brother), with a captain and chef of course, and really liked the stability and the space. We are looking in the 32 foot range. Still to big?? Thanks Charlie for your honest and sound advice.
Godot, thank you for pointing out that we do have time. I have very limited experience. As a kid, we lived on a lake and had rowboats(you would be surprised how many people do not know how to row a boat), canoes, a Squall(a bathtub looking sailboat), and my favorite, a sailfish, about 16 ft I think. Pulled  waterskiiers at the private girls camp on the other side of the lake. Fast forward about 20 years had had an 18 foot bowrider on the ICW. Learned I do not want vinyl anything as it molds.
Our dream is to do the east coast of US in the summer..or at least while learning our boat. Eventually head over to the Bahamas, the Grenadines, BVI's, USVI's. I never want to be cold again!!
There is a sailing school near by in Merritt Island with several different options, including liveaboard for 5 days.  ASA school and all that.  Hoping to do that this summer.
Kettlewell, we do have several options as far as where to keep a boat.  We definitely need to find out how much $$ we'd be shelling out. It would be nice to get something soon, so we can work on it and do a weekend sail, or even a day sail.  Thank you for letting me know about the two Cats available.  I've looked briefly..very good possibility. Question..is a 27 footer too small?
Thanks again for all your help.  So glad I'm here in SailFar.  :)

[Grime]

I assume that you plan on living on a boat and downsizing from a home. If this is the case then I would suggest you sit down and make a list of must haves. This will help determine the size and type of boat.  Personally I would go with a trawler.

One thing to remember is get a survey.  It can save you heartaches and tons of money.

[Godot]

In my experience, I'm afraid it's a given that you are going to be a slave to the boat. The only question is how much of a task master it is going to be.

Is 27' too small? Is 32' too big? Very personal questions that no one else can really answer for you. Given that this is a site of small boat enthusiasts, I think you will find that most here would say that 27' is plenty (check out http://cruisinglealea.com/ for a couple happily sailing on a 27' Vega), although it's wise to remember that there is a wide variation amongst boats of a similar size. Assuming you are in reasonably good health, you should be able to handle most 32' sailboats underway just fine (and will most certainly be more comfortable below), although they might be a bit more work at the dock (and a little bit pricier as most marinas seem to charge by the foot). If you go to some of the other sites, I suspect they will largely encourage you to go quite a bit larger, and be largely dismissive of long term cruising in small boats. Different strokes for different folks. With your cruising plans, you probably don't need to focus exclusively on solid blue water boats, and may do quite well with a solid coastal cruiser.

If the boat is in good shape (don't buy a fixer upper unless you enjoy fixing up and don't mind delaying departure a couple years) and you resist the urge to install all the bells and whistles (or are willing to go without if they break), maintenance shouldn't be out of control, with bottom jobs and varnish being the biggest recurring items.  New standing rigging and sails might be a good investment on any good old boat planning to go far afield for a few years. A strong engine will save you headaches (even in paradise I imagine spending your days fighting with a cantankerous monster is likely going to be no fun) , although in the frustrating experience I've had with the iron beasts, it is a good idea to learn how to set and retrieve anchor under sail.

[CharlieJ]

"Is a 27 footer too small?"

Depends on the boat AND the people. I know a guy who lived aboard, and cruised long term on a Catalac 25. It was big enough for two, but that boat is slow for a multi- heavily built, as are the other Catalacs. They were built for English waters.

The one question here that has not been addressed- how big are YOU-  a small boat like Tehani is perfectly fine for ME at 5'8, 165 pounds. And my 5'2, 105 Ex.

The boat would NOT be large enough for a 6 foot plus, 200 pound guy and perhaps a 6 foot (slender) wife. THAT is a  part of the equation that would really make a difference.

And David's advice about the survey is really good- heed it

Oh, and by the way, I'm 73  so you have time ;)

[Kettlewell]

Sounds like you are thinking about the right things! Which is a great contrast to many, so you are off to a good start. The idea of doing the East Coast and down to the Bahamas is the perfect way to get your "sea legs," learn more about cruising, and begin to develop the necessary repair and maintenance skills required. "Slave to a boat" is a term you will hear a lot, because many feel that way. The unfortunate truth is that cruising is about repairing boats in exotic places, no matter how small or simple your boat is. The larger and more modern the boat, the more stuff there is to break and fix. Frankly, I don't think age is the determinant of the amount of work: it is size and complexity. Unless you are rich you will have to do almost all the work yourself. So, mechanical things and maintenance things have to be things you don't just look at as chores, but as part of the expierience. I can remember many days of wandering back alleys in places like Cartagena searching for some elusive boat part, or more often some material that I could fashion into a workable substitute for a boat part. I arrived once in St. Thomas after an offshore run from the USA. We had some fairly serious damage offshore which we had mostly fixed in San Juan, but we still lusted after a few runs to the local parts stores to fix other things that were broken--one of the joys of arriving in a new port! After a few days of that we headed off to explore. Another boat had sailed in and anchored near us. Their's was a tale of woe. After a complete refit at the cost of $10s of thousands, they had left Florida, and many major systems had broken on the way: wind generator, high-output alternator, refrigeration, etc. They had lost all power and had sailed half the way with no lights, electricity, or navigation gear--just a sextant. Two months later we returned to St. Thomas and that boat hadn't lifted its anchor in that time, and they still weren't done finding parts and repairing stuff.

Don't let your cruising dreams end like that! Keep it simple, learn how to repair almost everything, and be prepared with back ups to the back ups. Sorry to be so long winded.

[Grime]

Oh, and by the way, I'm 73  so you have time ;)

I'll have to disagree with Charlie here. Not on him being 73, cause he is, but on having time.  No one knows what tomorrow will bring.

We purchased our first boat in 08 to do some cruising. She was a 22' Starwind.  Cancer hit me and set thing back big time. We did do a cruise for 60 days to NOLA and back to our home port. The wife said we need a bigger boat. So I purchased a 27' Watkins. Standing head room and 10' beam.  Then the wife had to have neck surgery and now 9 months later we might not get to do the cruising we had planned.  Hope we can get more answers tomorrow on how long Lisa will need treatment as a results of her surgery.

I'm not saying rush into anything just keep in mind that the older we get our health can take a major down turn in a hurry.  I'll be 70 this year.

[Kettlewell]

Size. Personally, I think about 30-32 feet in a mono is the perfect size for a couple to be able to go anywhere, and live comfortably while cruising. But, if you are primarily living aboard at a dock, with cruising something to be done down the road, most people will quickly find they need more space. The 27-foot Catalac is a capable boat and quite large for its length, but no speed demon that's for sure. We used to own a 32-foot cat (homebuilt by the folks we bought it from) that we cruised from Maine to the Caribbean and out to Bermuda and back. Plenty of room for a couple, but it was crowded when we had a family of four and the load carrying capability of a small cat is very limited before you impact seaworthiness. Ours was always overloaded, IMHO. That's why I moved to a 38-foot mono motorsailor when I wanted to take my family of four off on a two-year cruise down into the Caribbean. First and foremost a small cruising sailboat is a cargo ship, and it needs to be able to safely carry an adequate store of water, food, fuel, and gear. IMHO that can be done in about 28-32 feet in a mono for a couple, or about 32-38 feet in a cat for a couple.

[PattyLee]

Thank you all for responding. 
Grime...Yes, we will be liveaboards..I'm not a "thing" kind of person..just want the bare necessities to make things safe and fairly comfortable. Yes, we are aware of surveys.  We can deal with cosmetic kind of stuff..would like to have something that is pretty much sea-worthy to start.  I've read a lot about repairs..what B O A T stands for..parts you need to have on hand, etc.  Realize it's not all fun and games, but neither is anything else in this life.
Charlie, you bring up a good point with people size.  I forgot that when I was on the 47 foot Leopard, I thought at the time Chris would have a tough time in the berths and heads as those areas were tight.  Will have to remember that in our search.
Godot, I believe the only thing we will want on our boat besides the navigational and safety equipment and a percolator will be a/c..(for Chris)oh, an ice maker would be nice
Kettlewell..we're thinking 34' max..smaller is cheaper..it would be nice to afford dockage, but I don't think that will be much of and option on a fulltime basis.
Oh, dinghy davits would be nice also..and a dinghy..a future discussion.
Thanks again to all of you who have responded to my questions..You've been a tremendous help. Will keep you posted.  Hope I can help someone out one day. Pat

[CharlieJ]

If you haven't already read them , let me mention just a few books that might assist you  in this

Any of the Pardey books, but "The Self Sufficient Sailor" comes to mind- Definitely slanted toward, smaller, and simpler, and GO. Excellent read.

Annie Hills "Voyaging on a Small Income" is a decent read on simplicity.

Katy Burkes "the Complete Liveaboard Book" details a good bit of when she and Bruce Bingham lived aboard Sabrina, a 20 Flicka , and aboard Saga a 34 foot motor sailor. She goes into a lot of detail discussing power cruisers, Motor sailors, and sailboats, both pros and cons.

And by the way- a motor sailor wouldn't be a bad choice.

Also, IF you can find a copy, Parker's "Ocean Voyaging" describes his progress from a 45 footer, to a 29 footer.


There are many others, but I just picked these from my bookcase as good starting points..

And good luck- it's a wonderful life. Can't wait til I can head out again.

[Kettlewell]

I hope you're joking about a/c and an icemaker, because those things are pretty much useless once you leave the dock and are generally found on much larger vessels than you are talking about. A lot of us stick a household a/c in through a hatch when tied up to a dock for a long time someplace hot. You can't use those things at anchor without a generator, and its assorted complications.

[PattyLee]

Thanks Charlie. Will check on the books you mentioned.
Yes Kettlewell..after living in Florida for 25 years, if the temp is below 80? I'm cold!!
So how does one keep the beer cold?  ;D

[PattyLee]

What is a Hero Member?

[CharlieJ]

LOL- I live on the south Texas coast and don't even use an AC unit at home. Rarely found the need onboard either- I use a wind scoop, which can sometimes be TOO much ;) I do have a 12 volt fan which gets used- little current draw, and my solar  panel keeps up.

Totally agree with Kettlewell on the Icemaker- HUGE energy hog. I use a built in ice box, HEAVILY insulated  for cold drinks, but if Ice isn't readily available, such as in the Bahama out islands, I use the space for storing dry foods. NEVER put any food in theere. I work hard to not have leftovers,, and after a while you learn how much food to cook. For instance, meats, canned aboard in a pressure cooker, are in 1/2 pint jars-JUST enough for a meal.

And in the Bahamas, forget about beer. When I was there last (2011) beer was $6 a bottle, $24 a six pack in the grocery store in Nassau (and Bimini) Rum however, was $7 a liter for GOOD stuff, $9 a liter and a half. You do the math-Discovered coconut rum and Doles pineapple juice, kinda like a Pina Colada. Goes pretty good even warm :D

[CharlieJ]

OLD timer- been here a while, based on number of posts ;D

In  other words, a talkative character ;D ;D

[Grime]

For ice and a cold beer on board. All you need to do is get a Engel or ARB frige/freezer. They don't draw as much power as some might think. Sure the price runs about 900 for a 40 or 50 qt unit. They look like an ice chest.

[CharlieJ]

For ice and a cold beer on board. All you need to do is get a Engel or ARB frige/freezer. They don't draw as much power as some might think. Sure the price runs about 900 for a 40 or 50 qt unit. They look like an ice chest.

Yabut- you got a LOT more solar power than I do ;D ;D ;D

Good point though.