Choosing a boat

[CharlieJ]

For ice and a cold beer on board. All you need to do is get a Engel or ARB frige/freezer. They don't draw as much power as some might think. Sure the price runs about 900 for a 40 or 50 qt unit. They look like an ice chest.

Yabut- you got a LOT more solar power than I do ;D ;D ;D

Good point though.

And here's a very good example of something mentioned earlier- Grime is a friend, keeps his boat right down the dock from mine.  Grime has a 27 footer, while Tehani is 25 foot. He also has a beam of 10 feet, while I have 7 feet. Makes a HUGE difference in room below. He can fit that Engel in quite nicely, while I simply do not have the space. /

Something to consider while looking.

[PattyLee]

Rum is good!  :P
Food handling and prep will be a learning experience. I live by the KISS method  as much as possible. If it's too complicated, I avoid it.
I understand what you mean by boat size..having been on several boats at the Miami boat show, I think I prefer the wider beam. Makes the boat seem more spacious. I think that was why trawlers and Cats were being considered. We figure a monohull has overall more pluses...my concern was the draft..for Florida coastal and Bahamas..being shallow.
If it's not too personal, was wondering what kind of dock fees you two pay..and what is your hurricane plan?  Haha..Yeah,, being a Florida resident and having gone thru Francis and Jeanne, back to back hurricanes in '04, we are very aware of how things can be.  We figure if we keep an eye out, we'll have plenty of time to get out of Dodge.
Yes, we have a lot to learn. Thanks

[Grime]

Our slip fee is $4.00 per foot based on dock length. With $15.00 per month elec and $30.00 per person for liveaboards. We have new floating docks, wifi, dayroom, kitchen and showers. We have the best price going.

We only have a couple of choices for hurricane holes. Charlie can chime in on this one.

[Kettlewell]

That's an extremely low dockage rate, but great if you can find it! Just for comparison purposes, here in New England rock bottom dockage for the 6-month season starts at around $100 per foot, plus electric. Monthly dockage is a lot more than that. I'm look around right now for a new rental mooring for 6 months and prices at the low end are $1000 with the average closer to $1800. You have to pay for the six months up front. An overnight rental mooring ball is $50 or more many places, with the average probably around $40, with no services--just the tie up. However, if you are cruising, there are plenty of free anchorages most places, where you get the wind for free for cooling. When I was talking about a generator I took your thoughts on an a/c and icemaker literally. They are huge power draws. Yes, you can run 12-volt fridges with wind and solar, but probably some engine time too. The reality is that most sailors motor most of the time these days, and one of the reasons is they have to run the engine anyway to charge the batteries so they might as well use it to get somewhere too, and it is better for the engine to have a good load on it.

[DarrenC]

While I lack the practical experience of these seasoned cruisers, I would like to draw on my own history to ring in here and say the most important thing you can do in your situation is to actually make a decision and choose SOMETHING!

As a natural lover of research and personal education, I enjoy passionately dreaming and scheming about "The" boat on an almost daily basis.  After only half a dozen sails on Carita what I am sadly realizing is that I wasted so many cruising seasons shoreside because my planning and dreaming kept me in fear of buying the 'wrong' boat.  In truth the 'right' boat is the one you're sailing on!

For dirt cheap (probably not much more than the cost of two of you taking one of those 5 day courses) there are lots of serviceable and complete fibreglass sloops on the market, particularly in Florida it seeems.  FWIW if I were where you are knowing what I know now, my priority would be to just get out there and do it - start living the life as frequently as your schedule allows.  Real-world experience will dictate what you can and can't live with without on "The" boat.

[CharlieJ]

For dirt cheap (probably not much more than the cost of two of you taking one of those 5 day courses) there are lots of serviceable and complete fibreglass sloops on the market, particularly in Florida it seeems.  FWIW if I were where you are knowing what I know now, my priority would be to just get out there and do it - start living the life as frequently as your schedule allows.  Real-world experience will dictate what you can and can't live with without on "The" boat.

I have some "winter Texan" neighbors down from Canada. He has a custom, fully found 30 footer, ready to sail, up on Lake Ontario that he's about ready to just GIVE away, because it's such a buyers market right now. GOOD used sailboats are so common that the new boat market is hurting.

[DarrenC]

I have some "winter Texan" neighbors down from Canada. He has a custom, fully found 30 footer, ready to sail, up on Lake Ontario that he's about ready to just GIVE away, because it's such a buyers market right now. GOOD used sailboats are so common that the new boat market is hurting.

Charlie,

When you get a chance to chat with the fellow again, drop me an email or a PM with a little information.  There's a guy at my marina who frequently seems to have funds burning a hole in his pocket and a near-constant case of next-boat-itis that may be a perfect fit...

[CharlieJ]

lol  we sit on his front porch and sip a glass of wine frequently in the afternoons.

I'll see him today most likely

[s/v Faith]

PattyLee,

  First, welcome aboard!  Congratulations on making such an unconventional decision and doubly so for sharing your vision and your questions here.  My brain is filled with thoughts for you, I will type more in a moment....

  I offer your first grog on this site.  Please enjoy it with me, I am laying at anchor in what will quite likely be one of your future destinations.... Marsh Harbour which is on Great Abaco, in the Bahamas.  :)

  I am looking around the anchorage here, and doing a quick survey of the boats.  The numbers of fools folks out here cruising, and living aboard may have decreased this year.... But there are still many.

  There is an ideal, and there is reality.  I think you have come to the right place to find the right "ideal", as many (most) of the folks I have seen give up or fail do so because they go too large or too complicated to sustain the life they envision within their means.

  More thoughts in a bit, enjoy your grog.  It is about 77f here, and the sunset was stunning.  Some still blow Conch horns in the harbor to celebrate a beautiful day...

 

[s/v Faith]

First, to narrow it down a bit.

  A VERY important consideration for you will be your intended cruising area.  We are so amazingly blessed here in North America, especially those of us on East Coast and Gulf Coast.... Access to what are likely the very best cruising grounds in the world!  All without having to cross an ocean.

  If you eliminate ocean crossing, your list of boats gets much easier to narrow down.  I have spent a bunch of time in the Med, and don't feel any need to go back. 

  For me, I do not like being cold.  Boats don't like places that the water turns to that hard stuff (like the ice you put in your rum glass in a civilized climate).  Nothing north of the Chesapeake is a legitimate year round cruising ground because of the cold....  Great destinations to visit, but not to live full time.

  Many many folks find a lifetime of cruising in the Bahamas, and splitting ones time between the US and the Bahamas can be a very good way to make it work.  Heading south is a good way to broaden the experience, and can give other great experiences without the need for a go-around-the-world kind of boat.

[s/v Faith]

Draft:

  If you are going to cruise the Bahamas, and the US East / Gulf coast you will want shoal draft.  5.5' max, absolutely nothing over 6'...  Less is definitely better. 

  I started with draft, since this is one of the easier topics.... Ok, maybe a cop out.  ;)

Having been up and down the coast, around the Bahamas and as far south as Columbia I can tell you that every bit matters.  Emerald Tide draws just a little less then 6' and she takes a lot of attention to keep out of the shallow stuff.  There are very few places I have ever wanted to sail her that I could not, but I often find myself going the longer way around.  Faith draws about 4' and I would say that the difference opens up a huge number of anchorages....

  When it comes to draft, less is more...   A very shallow draft boat may be not only uncomfortable off shore (even making a passage to the BAhamas need be considered off shore for this discussion) and will likely be less comfortable at anchor....

[s/v Faith]

Another Draft: vertical draft...  (Also known as air draft).

Most bridges on the Atlantic ICW are 65' or opening.  Nothing over 49' high can pass under the bridge on the Okeechobee Waterway (unless you lay a larger boat over with barrels or other means)....

Faith carries a vertical draft of 37.5' with her antenna included.  Really she is about 35'.  I have found few places I wanted to go that I could not access with that.

Emerald Tide carries 56' in the air, I do not go under most inland bridges with her but is it certainly manageable for the ICW.  She is a cutter headed sloop, if she were ketch rigged she would have a shorter rig and I could take her across the Okeechobee Waterway, which would have saved a lot of time on a couple of trips.

I do not consider a boat with anything approaching 65' of airdraft to be a practical cruising boat in your likely cruising grounds, I think most here will agree <65' and less is better... Really.

So air draft?  Less is more... Again.

[PattyLee]

s/v Faith
Thank you for the welcome. Just got back from celebrating my dads 91st birthday.  Gotta  hit the sack soon as the alarm goes off at 3:30.. Ewwww, doesn't that sound nasty? Rather be where you are. Thanks for the grog.  Cheers!
DarrenC
We are finding that you are absolutely correct in that it is definitely a buyers market for boats at this time. I'm actually shocked at what's available for what we want to spend.
Grime and Ketterwell
Looks like we have five marinas or dockage in town.  Not bad for a town of 25,000 people. One is a full-blown marina, complete with indoor storage in a building that can withstand up to 140 mph winds. Will be checking out prices probably this week. We have several other options outside of town also.  So, if we can find something reasonable, we can become weekend sailors sooner than we thought.
Then there are taxes and insurance..the mind boggles!!  But we can do this!! ;D
Many people that we know who have been retired for several years say "Do it now, before it's too late." Sounds like sound advice.
Been thinking about what you guys have recommended about size..and have come to the conclusion that we need to get what will make us happy. We aren't going to be doing a lot of sailing..just kind of meandering around, checking things out, staying here and there, stay if we like it, leave if we don't.   The thoughts of not having to live by an alarm or deadlines is heavenly.  Sundown and cocktail hour seem to be the priorities of most cruisers, which sounds perfect.  :D   

[s/v Faith]

Power versus sail.

 Ok, I have some bias here.... But hear me out.  :)

I am a licensed mariner, I deliver boats.  Most of my experience is with sail, but frankly many trips I have made wind up being motoring or motor-sailing trips.  I have run boats that burned the entire 80 gallon tankage the boat I am posting this from (s/v Emerald Tide) in less then 2 hours!

Diesel here in the Bahamas is 5.78 a gallon (just bought 19 gallons this afternoon).  I have paid over $8.  Gasoline is typically more expensive in the islands, even if it is inexplicably slightly less in the US....

Now, Faith (at 26', and fully loaded less then 8,000#) burns almost as much gasoline for an hour of running her 6hp gasoline outboard as Emerald Tide does with 24,000# and 56hp diesel.  The big difference is Faith does not require I start her motor all the time.  I once cruised the Bahamas for a month without starting the motor at all....  I burned less then a gallon of gas sailing every day....  What I did burn I put into the small Honda generator!

More in the next post....

[s/v Faith]

When I first read your post, I did a quick survey of the cruising boats anchored here at Marsh Harbour. 

There are about 40 boats.....  I will talk about other things in a bit, but just considering the question of power vs sail there are 2 power boats.  That may be a little low, typically I might see 10-15% of the boats in an anchorage as strictly power boats.

Cruising on a power boat is feasible, and many folks do it.  Some transition to power after sailing for years, finding the power boat more manageable.  That said, there are two very very different types of power boats (arguably more, depending on who you ask)....  Ok, lets break it into 3 groups.

First, many of the boats you are likely seeing for sale are "displacement" "plaining" and "semi-displacement".  Cats mess everything up, so we will deal with them separately.

Without going too far in the weeds, a sailboat is a "displacement" hull, no matter how much horsepower you apply she is only going to go so fast.... Operating a "displacement" hull requires far less fuel, and takes place at lower speeds. 

Moving an object over water is very efficient at slower speeds.  No matter if you choose sail or power, you will likely end up "seeing the world at the speed of a riding lawm mower". :)

I can use 2 fingers to slowly move a very heavy boat at the dock...  Slowly.  The faster you want to go, the more power it takes.. There is no way around this. 

A trawler, or a sailboat will be limited in speed by the length of her waterline.  Displacement hulls not only are more efficient, they tend to ride better at anchor and carry significantly more weight without detriment then a plaining hull.

I once moved a Marine Trader trawler, it was 34' long heavy and would burn about 3/4 of a gallon of diesel an hour at 5.5knots....  Emerald Tide at 42' long, burns about 1/2 a gallon of diesel at that speed.  Neither will do over 7 knots without using significantly more fuel...

To go faster,  you need to get the hull to "climb over" her bow wave.  This takes a lot of power, and you have to make the boat effectively "float" partially out of the water.  Think of a water skier, at low speeds they drag through the water, but once they get "up" they go much faster and it is actually easier to hold on.

You will not often encounter a plaining hull cruising, and if you do they are spending a lot of money on fuel.

Be careful, many folks have bought something like a "Sea Ray" and found the fuel bills kept them at the dock.  While there are exceptions, I  dare say that if you are reading this site you are not likely going to be well served by a plaining hull.

Semi-Displacement hulls do not fare much better, being a compromise....  Moving faster, but burning more fuel. 

My recommendation would be for a displacement power boat, sailboat, or those pesky cats,,,,

[s/v Faith]

Sail vs power.. Continued.

  I am often amazed, as I travel around, at the number of people who do not seem to recall what those long poles and bits of fabric are for!  The truth is many sail boats are often used as motor boats.

  There are good reasons for this.  It is easier for most to go into a harbor under power...  Likewise to dock, or to anchor.... Or raise anchor.  Many have to run their motor every day to charge batteries or to cool refrigeration.

  So, it is easy then right?  Just get a power boat!  ..... Not so fast.

First, the obvious....

  Sailboats use this really great fuel... Free, and accessible most everywhere...  It can be harnessed to move the boat, in generally most directions, but pretty much anyone. 

  Sadly, Sailors are liars.  We often make it sound like lots of hard work!  We invent our own language, often used to baffle and confuse people and then make it sound like pos-graduate physics when we explain how it works.....  Sometimes it is innocent, just using strange terms makes it hard to understand.... Other times I hear folks who seem to want to make themselves sound like something special because they

"pinched up hard on the wind, flying their #2 and Sta-sail with a double reefed main in 20knots until they had to fall off 2degrees to improve their VMG and SOG while keeping their COG... Until they had to jibe....."   

It really ain't that hard.  I have introduced many folks to sailing...l any idiot can make a boat go through the water... Just to prove it, I do it most days.  ;D

Sailing need not be hard, and frankly has gotten easier in the last couple decades.  Sails that just roll up when not in use have made life easier, and great inventions like winches that allow you to use one hand to raise sails....   Lots of good things happening to enable sailing by anyone.

A smaller boat, requires smaller sails... And less gear to maker her go.  Emerald Tide, as big as she is, can be safely sailed by one person and easily so. 

I would love to take your two out for a sail, it is really not hard to learn the basics.

[s/v Faith]

I know I am over posting to this thread, sorry for all the info / opinion.

Sail power helps avoid those stunning fuel costs and gives you more freedom.  Fuel is expensive, and engines are hard to maintain well enough to be 100% reliable...  Parts are expensive, and unless you are particularly handy finding someone to repair a motor in a distant port (or not so distant!) is problematic at best, and can be impossible.  Economic and political uncertainty can quickly upset a cruising budget centered of fuel.

Sail gives you options.  You can do a lot of things under sail!  With practice, you can learn to even go without a motor all together. 

Two identical boats, one with sail one without... (Some designers did this) the sailboat will often have a better motion and be more comfortable underway or at anchor... This is an important consideration.

One "dirty little secret" some discover when they move to powerboats is that the motion at anchor is often so much more uncomfortable that they are forced into expensive marinas to get a good nights sleep.... 

That factor alone can make it much harder to cruise on a budget!

[s/v Faith]

I do not like cats. 

There, I said it.  :D   Looking around, I am increasingly in the minority!  Cats are everywhere!  Cats, (ok, really I should say "multi-hulls" are really taking the lions share of new boat sales.  catamarans and that weird creature the tri-hull have found a devoted following.  They go fast.... They operate efficiently under sail or power.. They have less wetted surface area, and can almost plane....  The Americas Cup last year was the most amazing thing I have ever witnessed!  Those "cat people" love to point out how wrong I was..l and I was.  NO monohull race can ever match what I saw in San Francisco Bay last year.

I do not like cats.

They sail flat, they ride well at anchor (although can have a weird snap motion in certain conditions)...  They have lots of interior room, huge saloons with lots of light...

A cat will go faster under sail, motor, use less fuel....   I used to say "yea, but they can flip over and not roll back upright!"  The problem is that while I am still right to say that, many have circumnavigated and a large majority of them sail safely over seas I never would choose to venture out onto....  Those Cat People would also point out that while they do not self right, they also are less likely to sink if they capsize.... And they are right.

A magazine article a couple years ago (2010?) said cats took 40% of the sales into the charter fleet for the year.  Looking at the Moorings Base where I bought fuel today, I believe it.  I saw many many cats in the Virgin Islands last year.

I don't like cats.

They are (to my eye) less attractive, and many are even ugly.  I won't say which ones, since I have better manners.... But I have heard it said "life is too short for an ugly boat"

I don't like cats.

But they are easy to handle.  I did a sea trial on a big Cat built in South Africa.... Twin screws mounted 18' apart made that thing an absolute joy to turn and to dock....


Cat are also typically expensive....  Although some older, smaller designs like the Gemini are not too pricy.

Just in case you did not get the clue, I am not much of a fan...l but like any opinion I may be wrong, and reserve my right to change my mind.    ;)

[s/v Faith]

Ok Pat,

  I have gone on and on... I still have more to say!  I suppose 10 posts to your thread is. Bit overwhelming.  I suspect others will proof read this for me, and point out my errors..  I have a bunch more to write, but will refrain for a bit.

  Very best of luck to you both!  I think I have crew lined up (finally) for the trip back up from the Bahamas, I have a had a great deal of difficulty this year which is surprising given how blasted cold I understand it had been back in the US this winter....   Anyway, would love to meet you both and discuss some of this if our paths cross.  If not now, maybe "out there" some day.

Fairwinds!

[CharlieJ]

Ah but Craig- please don't compare the cruising cats you see ( we used to call them "Roomarans") with a sleek, clean lined multi hull.

Worlds of difference

My Cross 35 sailing offshore in the Atlantic. note- I LOWERED the cabin roof line 3 inches