Choosing a boat

[PattyLee]

S/fAith (Craig?)   So you don't like cats nor the cold. I know a couple who are adamant about monohulls and will probably drown the next person who tells them they should get a cat to accommodate their 3 year old and newborn twins. I'm understanding more and more about everything you have talked about. I had no clue I would get this kind of feedback, and it's so cool you guys would take the time to talk to me. :)
As for the cold..I'm with you on that one.
Gotta go...work time.

[Kettlewell]

I'm one of the few people around who has cruised and lived aboard both a cat and several different monos--I'm on my eighth cruising sailiboat! Pluses and minuses like most things in life. Cats have shallow draft, which is a very underrated feature--opens up four times the anchorages, and makes coastal cruising much less stressful along the shallow East Coast and in the Caribbean. It is like night and day when coastal cruising. Many times I was tucked up in some three or four foot spot during a big blow listening to the rest of the cruisers out in the harbor on the radio dealing with dragging boats and an uncomfortable ride. But, cats are not as good load carriers for their length, and virtually every long-term cruising cat I see is drastically overloaded. When overloaded they don't sail nearly as well. Down in the southwest Caribbean I spent three months cruising in company with two other families: one on a 42-foot French cat, one on a 54-foot mono, and us on a 38-foot motorsailor. We never arrived in port more than a few hours after the leaders, even after a 200-mile passage. Sometimes we were the first in because we could motor comfortably in rough conditions for long periods of time. Our average speeds were within less than a knot of each other. I remember one very rough night offshore when we gradually overhauled the cat and passed her slowly due to the rough conditions with the wind nearly on the nose. None of us were racing, and none of us had particularly fast boats, and when cruising you often choose the most comfortable route and point of sail rather than the fastest. The space on cats is great, but it is too easy to fill them up beyond their load capacity unless you get a huge one, and then they are like trying to drive a tennis court around the harbor and marina. In New England and some other places there are almost no dock spaces for cats, and they charge twice as much. There are some shallow-draft monos designed for offshore work and they are capable, but they have gone out of style. You can still find boats from the 60s and 70s with centerboards and shallow keels, but they are getting old. It's funny, because that type of boat was considered very American. The famous race boat Finisterre was a keel-centerboarder, and she was cruised and sailed everywhere. Beautiful too. Can't find many boats like that anymore for some reason.

Double ++ on not getting a boat with a draft over 6 feet or a stick above 62 feet to the top of the antenna. Theoretically, you can take 65 feet up and down most of the East Coast, but there are many bridges that frequently don't offer more than 62 feet.

[DarrenC]

   Sadly, Sailors are liars.  We often make it sound like lots of hard work!  We invent our own language, often used to baffle and confuse people and then make it sound like pos-graduate physics when we explain how it works.....  Sometimes it is innocent, just using strange terms makes it hard to understand.... Other times I hear folks who seem to want to make themselves sound like something special because they

"pinched up hard on the wind, flying their #2 and Sta-sail with a double reefed main in 20knots until they had to fall off 2degrees to improve their VMG and SOG while keeping their COG... Until they had to jibe....."   

It really ain't that hard.  I have introduced many folks to sailing...l any idiot can make a boat go through the water... Just to prove it, I do it most days.  ;D

Sailing need not be hard, and frankly has gotten easier in the last couple decades.  Sails that just roll up when not in use have made life easier, and great inventions like winches that allow you to use one hand to raise sails....   Lots of good things happening to enable sailing by anyone.

Craig,

Enjoy a grog on me for saying this out loud!

Being a fellow whose mind is constantly looking for something to fixate on, I have had many different interests come and go over the years and for the most part have achieved good proficiency at most of them in what most consider record time.

Being a research hound and having a good memory helps,  but the biggest factor is the classic 80/20 rule.  Regardless of your area of pursuit, it has been repeatedly proven to me that out of everything there is to know roughly 1/5 or 20% of it is fundamentals/critical knowledge/skills.  Isolate and master that 20% and you will be roughly 80% proficient.  The remaining 20% proficiency is not to be scoffed at and is what separates the true masters from the enthusiasts, however that mastery is hard-won as the investment of time and resources becomes a case of ever diminishing returns (acquiring the remaining 80% of knowledge/experience/skills to attain an additional 20% in proficiency).

Of course the downside in this over-simplified learning curve is that when one is lazy and shiftless such as myself, you reach middle age being able to hold your own in a wide variety of conversation  but not being regarded as an 'expert' in anything.  

Anyways - back to sailing.  Bottom line is Craig is absolutely correct.  Prior to buying Carita my sum total sailing experience was two dusty vintage books from the local library, a 3 hour couples lesson on a 14 ft dinghy and joining some friends for a Sunday morning sail on their Tartan 34.   Upon returning to the dock after that sail my wife and friend nudged me over to the slip where Carita was for sale and my avatar photo was taken the following Saturday - I may know nothing more than the most basic fundamentals, but I'm sailing!

[Kettlewell]

It's easy to learn to sail, but takes time and experience to develop the seat-of-the-pants cruising skills. Things like anchoring, reading the weather, and boat handling during less-than-ideal conditions depend on more than book learning and training. So, take you time and work your way up slowly. Also, starting smaller or cheaper makes this learning curve easier, and you never know if you'll like the lifestyle. I've met folks that it just didn't work for them, even though in some cases they cruised for quite a few years, and I've met some others that had barely started and they acted like old salts.

[CharlieJ]

It's easy to learn to sail, but takes time and experience to develop the seat-of-the-pants cruising skills. Things like anchoring, reading the weather, and boat handling during less-than-ideal conditions depend on more than book learning and training.

:D  I first set foot in a sailboat in 1957- A plywood Penquin.

I'm still learning

[PattyLee]

ok, monohull it is, but want a wide beam, 10 foot or so.  There are so many to choose from. Any particular make/model any of you would avoid?   We will probably need a dinghy as dockage may not always be affordable or available.  Any recommendations on that subject? 
Thanks again, Kettlewell, Charlie and Craig. 

[CharlieJ]

Dinghies?? Now THERE's a volatile subject  :D And for sure, you'll need one

I've used both hard dinghies, and inflatables. Currently I'm using a small plywood dink that I  built last year. Before that I was using an inflatable with a small  outboard.. I really liked that one, but my ex now has it.

The small rowing dinghy is fine in most places stateside. but for overall cruising, I'd choose ( and will again)) an inflatable.

My hard dink is 6 foot 6 inches, which is fine for just me. Tehani is too small to bring a dinghy aboard, so I tow it. It's been towed all over the place, many many miles. You tow with the understanding that the dinghy is expendable- if the weather REALLY nails you and the mother ship is in danger, the dinghy gets cut away. I also towed the small (7'6") inflatable. Close now to 10,000 miles of towing, with three bad instances, all inshore, all within an hour of each other, and all my own fault.

If you are in  an area where you'll be snorkeling, or in areas where it's a long row to shore, the powered dink is really nice.

But if you don't mind rowing, sometimes a good distance, the hard one works too. Many use nothing else.

Many also use small dinghies with sail rigs, but that an extra discussion in itself.

As to the inflatable- for long term use, don't even consider anything but Hypalon. PVC dinghies are much cheaper, and much shorter lived in constant sunshine.

The choice is really up to you, but overall, I think the inflatable with an outboard has the edge

Couple pictures-

First me rowing the inflatable- Achilles, wooden floor 7'6", bought from Defender Industries. I used a 3/3 HP Mercury 2 stroke on it also

Second, the hard dink I built last April. 6'6" MiniPaw from B and B Yacht designs.

[Grime]

I have a inflatable with a 5 hp outboard 4 stroke. This one now is my second inflatable. I also had a wooden rowing dinghy that Charlie had built.

Rowing is great exercise but I would not depend on one to get me back to the boat when the weather goes south. My first inflatable got to where it wouldn't hold air from oyster shells cutting the bottom. If I had the money a hard bottom inflatable is the way I would go.  I wouldn't go any smaller that 9'. Mine is 8' and I feel with 2 people and gear is going to be cramped.

[PattyLee]

Thanks  Charlie..Just wondering what you do with your dinghy when you are docked. I've heard they are often stolen. Could that bebecause of location?
Grime, do you also tow your dinghy?

[Kettlewell]

A dinghy is an absolute must-have even if you mostly stay tied to the dock--you will eventually have to anchor someplace you want to go and then what do you do without a dinghy? There are a very few places with regular launch service to and from shore, but they tend to be very busy yachty harbors like Annapolis or Newport. Most cruisers use their dinghies constantly, and most (probably 95%) use the largest inflatable they can stow with the largest outboard they can handle. We have used a 9'6" Achilles inflatable with an 8HP 2-stroke Johnson for about nine years now. It is just adequate for a family of four and most would want more boat. However, with one or two onboard we can plane and cover some good distance quickly. Many anchorages outside of the USA require a fairly hefty dinghy trip to get around. Often you don't want to anchor within easy rowing distance of shore or town for various reasons: heat, noise, dirt, bugs, a few places thieves, etc. Putting a little distance between you and shore is about the best theft deterrence there is.

[Grime]

In the past I have towed mine with a single line. Now I use a bridle with a float. I keep my outboard on a motor mount on the stern rail and use a trolling motor most of the time to get the crew to land for a doggy potty break. Here at the marina I keep mine covered. I do  plan to bottom paint the help keep the barnacles off.

I would think that a bicycle lock would work at most docks.  

[Kettlewell]

Dinghy theft is only a major issue in a few areas. In New England hardly anybody locks their dinghy, even when leaving it someplace for weeks with the motor on it. In Maine you will see lots of hard dinks and people row more, but virtually every harbor has a dinghy dock or at least a wharf of some sort where you can tie up securely and nobody cares. For that matter, in Maine I would guess 50% of boat owners don't even bother to lock up their big boats when going ashore. I remember one Mainer telling me I was nuts to lock up my cabin when gone because then nobody could get onboard to check things if they noticed a problem! North of Florida I hardly ever lock my dink, whether ashore or trailing astern. The further south you get the more dinghy theft, but they are usually looking for the motor. It is bad enough down in the Caribbean that most cruisers pull their dinghies up onto deck or at least hang them from a haliard alongside over night. I did this and I also cable locked the dinghy and motor wherever I went. You can tell a Caribbean cruiser because they will have a long coiled heavy cable and sturdy locks on their dink. Florida is a mixed bag--I would lock it many places, but others I wouldn't worry too much. In any case, you need a dinghy, you need hefty locks and cables, and keep your ears tuned to the local grapevine about the situation. If everybody is locking at the dinghy dock, lock up. If everybody is hauling their dinghy out at night, haul yours. Also, paint your motor some obvious and bright color so that it doesn't look brand new and so it sticks out like a sore thumb in the harbor.

[Grime]

Down here if it aint locked its gone to Mexico in a heart beat. People here lock their car just to pump gas. Then there are those that wont steal anything just want to see what you have and will board your boat for a look see.

[s/v Faith]

Several years ago, prior to heading out for an extended cruise of the Bahamas a friend gave me some advice.

I had a hard dingy I was planning to use, I had been through several dingies when I settled in a hard dingy.

His advice?  "Make sure I have a plan for how I am going to get an inflatable, once I decided that the hard dingy was not going to work out"  ;D

He was right.  I like hard dingies for somethings, they row much better then inflateable s do, and they can be sailed which is a lot of fun.  However, they are harder to get into from a high dock, tougher to load down with groceries, and with some exceptions they do not handle rough seas and surf landings like an inflatable.

View the dingy as part of a system.  Marinas are expensive (I hate to stay in them, and avoid them).  Good ground tackle (a good anchor, I like the Manson Supreme, and a healthy length of chain) are expensive but pay for themselves in the nights you pay nothing for mooring over paying big bucks for a marina.

The dingy is part of this system, as it is what allows you to easily go back and forth to shore and carry all the stuff you need to carry.

Your dingy is your car.  A small rowing dingy, or a kayak might be like a moped.... You can get to the market on it if the weather is ok, but a car is better. 

Emerald Tide has a Carib RHIB, that is a rigid hull that makes it into a kind of boat that combines a hard dingy with an inflatable.  It is a great boat, and hands down the absolutely most common choice for the Bahamas and Caribbean.  The problem is that it is; expensive, hard to stow, and somewhat heavy.

Emerald Tide carries the dingy on davits, these are so easy to use and make life easy...l but they are hard to find room for on smaller boats.  I have seen 32' boats with davits, but anything much smaller then that would be hard pressed to deal with the extra weight aft.

On Faith, I either Tow an inflatable with a plywood floor, or stow it on deck (best not to tow a dingy offshore).

Others either like or hate options like the "Porta-boat" that folds up flat when not in use.  There are great threads here on pretty much any kind of dingy you might like to carry.

Whatever you choose, you will want to be comfortable with it.  You will be using it a LOT! 

[s/v Faith]

A great thread to read through;


    Topic: Show me your little Dinghy / Tender / what have you....  (Read 41232 times)

Another one on inflatable dinghies;

Topic: The Inflateable Dingy thread.  (Read 5990 times)

[Kettlewell]

Personally, I love hard dinghies, and I enjoy rowing too. Get the right one and you will be able to get ashore in any weather safely that you might want to go ashore. I lived aboard for 12 years straight at one point and for many of those years I rowed ashore, even when commuting to work every day. Rescued many people during those years whose outboards had died. But, 95% of cruisers prefer a large inflatable and big motor--most people don't like the exercise of rowing, and don't have a good way of hauling a hard dinghy and stowing on deck for offshore work--you can't tow a dinghy across the Gulf Stream. One thing we have found is nice to have is an inflatable kayak or two for leisurely paddling around the harbor. They are not the most practical for an every day dinghy, but they are a lot of fun and a great way to get some exercise. They are quiet too. One thing I like about cruising is the quiet out there on the water, and I always feel guilty firing up the outboard motor in a peaceful anchorage.

[CharlieJ]

A great thread to read through;


    Topic: Show me your little Dinghy / Tender / what have you....  (Read 41232 times)

Another one on inflatable dinghies;

Topic: The Inflateable Dingy thread.  (Read 5990 times)


LOL- Boy Craig, you sure know how to have them kill a a morning. Those two threads will take a while to read ;D ;D

LOTS of info there.

[CharlieJ]

Thanks  Charlie..Just wondering what you do with your dinghy when you are docked. I've heard they are often stolen. Could that bebecause of location?
Grime, do you also tow your dinghy?

I used a 20 foot length of 7 x 19 stainless wire, with a nicro pressed loop on each end. Ran that through the handle on the outboard and around places in the dinghy. BUT-

I didn't use just the wire. I removed the core from an old dacron sheet, ran the wire through that, then seized the ends over the nicro press fittings on each end. Looked like a piece of line when in use, which did two things- prevented the wire chafing the dinghy, and dulled the heck out of anyone's knife who tried to just cut it.

Also, my inflatable had the registration numbers painted in big block letters on each side. Hard to hide.

Locked it up all over Florida, and also up the east coast. Sometimes in the Bahamas, sometimes not. Got told there no Bahamian would steal an inflatable- they want a boat they can dive and spear fish from that you don't have to worry about poking a hole in ;D  I don't think my tiny inflatable would have interested anyone but another cruiser.

I don't much bother with the small hard dinghy- it's so little, few are interested

Oh and as an aside- I've towed the dinghies everywhere- the hard dinghy too.. But the inflatable was towed twice across the Gulf of Mexico, twice across the Gulf Stream, twice across Tongue of the Ocean and all over the Chesapeake. Note- I NEVER, EVER tow the dinghy with the motor mounted. Well, maybe if I'm moving from a mooring to a pumpout dock or something like that- couple hundred yards. Otherwise it comes off.

The ONLY time I had trouble was coming in off the Chesapeake into  the Elizabeth River at Norfolk. Dinghy swamped three times in less than an hour in 3 - 3 1/2 foot following seas. Later, I realized it had gotten very soft and the bow was rolling under, instead of riding OVER waves. MUCH later, found a small air leak, fixed that, and solved the problem

This shot was taken while I was single handing the boat across the GOM. I was about 75 miles offshore at the time. Note that I had shortened the painter so the bow was very close to the stern of Tehani- it was ROUGH during the night, and gradually abated as the day progressed

And for the hard dink- here's a link to a video of it being towed offshore. This was about 25 miles out from the Matagorda Jetties, bound for Florida. Sheet to tiller system was steering. Had no autopilot at the time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhBRB1qkpk&feature=related

[PattyLee]

Whew, wow, lots of Info there from all of you. Thanks. Will save for future use.  We found a 30 ft Newport, totally refurbished, New everything..Just waiting to find out beam, draft and height. Been on the market for 4 days. Anyone know anything about Newports other than the fact they went out of business in the 90's?
Oh, not sure what year it is..doesn't matter. Haven't seen it other than pics. There are so many out there, prices are very reasonable, lot of people are taking offers. Lots of fun looking.

[PattyLee]

Will a boat with a five foot draft, 45 feet tall be able to cross Florida via Lake Okeechobee?