Choosing a boat

[Grime]

And life does have a funny way of getting in the way of dreams- or changing them.

Hit the nail on the head with that one Charlie. You know what I mean.

[Jim_ME]

Hi Patty, Not sure what your budget range is, and you may already be leaning toward a trawler, and although it's larger than the standard Sailfar range in length and especially displacement, you might find it interesting to take a look at this Westsail 32. It looks beautiful and with tons of character, and they are quite roomy and seaworthy. Sailfar members Woody & Rachel have one in Texas that they are restoring, and that Charlie has also seen.

http://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/4344426186.html

[PattyLee]

Thank you all for the continued support.  It's funny, but as we're looking at the Hunter 30, I thought "how blah", no character. Jim ME..loved the pic.
I'm not as flexible as I used to be and had a tough time going from the dock to the deck, and going below deck. It was a reality check..
I'm just glad there are more options.  :)

[Jim_ME]

To re-post the quote that someone else may have already mentioned...

"Life's too short to own an ugly boat"

Adding some hand holds/grab bars/railings may help you in negotiating those areas. You may also find that a boat like this has a much easier/more stable motion at sea than a trawler. The constant pressure on the sails has a strong steadying effect.

Again, typically, few of us would recommend a boat this large, but it does seem to fit your description of at least some of your needs, so it may be worthwhile to look the boat over. IMHO, any time spent checking out a good boat will be a valuable experience. If it seems like a possibility, you may be able to arrange to be taken out on the boat, to get a feel for how it behaves under power and sail. Then compare that with a trawler. This Westsail has a 70 hp Yanmar Diesel Engine, which is a generous size, leaning toward motorsailer territory.

There is quite a spacious feeling from the sheer volume in one of these designs, which the photos capture to some extent. (I'll post a couple so that they will remain here after the ad expires).

Here are the specs and drawings...
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1807

[CharlieJ]

Was just aboard a Westsail today. LONG way down the companionway steps.

But Jim is totally correct on the hand holds. I added a pair on the over head of Tehani that are REALLY valuable.

No pics, but I'll see about getting some

[Frank]

I posted this in 09.....
these folks travel on a C-Dory 22...

NO JUDGEMENTS.....just get out and do it!!!!!

""RAMBLING

-----We were born with wayward souls. Unavoidable - we suppose it's from the immigrant genes of our ancestors. Our wandering spirits seek uncertainty. Driven by insatiable curiosity, we become restless after a few days or weeks in one place. There's an infinity of new places and experiences to savor. There are new people to meet, new foods to taste, new rivers to explore, and yes, another mountain to cross. Life is brimming with unending variety to discover and investigate. Thus, we are wanderers. A westward wind tugs at our souls, and we can't resist. A map is a siren call. One phrase has never crossed our lips - "I'm bored."

-----For us, a house and material things are anchors. We have cut those lines. We follow the lure and it has been a marvelous life.

-----Since we are land animals, lacking gills or feathers, most of our lives we had to live ashore. Those years we rambled mostly on land - by foot, car, plane, or on rails. We did, however, make excursions afloat. Vacation trips included river runs by canoe or raft on all the inhabited continents, or boat trips within or along all the continents.

-----We have roamed by water for extended times, sometimes years - afloat by kayak, canoe, raft, or boat. For two years we lived aboard a 20' sailboat and cruised her 13,000 nm along the waterways of America. During those years, we were ashore for only brief times to visit family or friends.

-----For us nomads, we are sometimes questioned -- Which lifestyle is preferable - afloat or ashore? The answer is simple - neither! We find we need both, since both offer what we are fundamentally seeking - change. And each offers unique opportunities to experience change.

-----Life afloat is filled with variety. Weather is always changing, the wildlife around us is seasonal and sporadic, and every anchorage and mile of water is unique and different. A lake is different from a river, and they both differ markedly from the ocean. Bays can be freshwater or salt, rocky or mud - and the wildlife and experience varies accordingly. On salt water, we rise and fall with the tide and we are offered different views as our 'home' swings on the tidal flow. The surrounding land may be beach, deep forest, or urban. On fresh water, current or winds swing us on anchor and the view from the cockpit is ever-shifting. Nomadic life afloat is continuous change.

-----There's also ample change living ashore. The perennial discussion of vacation at the mountains or the shore reflects the range of possibilities for a land-based nomad. But there's also prairie, tundra, the glories of spring above timberline, a dawn through the giant saguaros, the somber desolation of lava fields - an almost infinite variety of landscapes and views. Weather usually has less influence on land dwellers. Although the air may occasionally be violent, the land usually remains solid and stable. Aboard, weather affects both what lies above and below - air and water - and our floating home responds.>

-----There are overlapping experiences for dwellers on water and those on land. But the perspective is sharply distinct, whether one is looking to the shore or from the shore. It is this perspective that is unique to the edges of either environment.

-----Now we have the best of both worlds - land and water. Ashore, we live in an Alaska Camper, mounted in the bed of a Ford pickup truck. The camper lifts hydraulically, has all the amenities, and is insulated and lined with wood - living in our camper home is 'boaty' and we love the spacious windows and comfort. When we have lived ashore in the past nine years, it has been in our camper. It has been from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and from the Gulf to the Arctic Ocean. It has been our home in every state and province, and in all three countries in North America.



Consider the advantages of this home:

......Views of mountains, ocean, lakes, saguaro, tundra, or whatever scene we wish.

......If the neighbors are noisy, or not noisy enough, we move our home.

...... We are self-sufficient. We generate our own power and properly dispose of wastes.

......We can 'rent' a campsite in the most beautiful parks on the continent, or 'freedom' camp on public lands.

......There are no property or state taxes.

-----Afloat, we live in our other home - our C-Dory, Halcyon. This small power boat is easy to maintain, is economical and simple to operate. It is trailerable - easy to load, transport, and launch. Therefore, it can go virtually anywhere as long as the water is two feet deep and navigable. This home can also have views of ocean, lakes, rivers, mountains and any scene possible on the waterways of America. Hey, and did you know? There are over 13,000 miles of interconnected navigable waterways in the eastern half of the US. We can still move to or from noisy neighbors, anchor in lonely coves or tie up at marinas and resorts in some of the most beautiful waterfront sites on the continent. And, we are still marvelously self-sufficient.

-----With these two peripatetic homes, we have the perfect mode for nomads. We can comfortably sleep in either of our own beds and live in either home virtually anywhere on the continent or wherever there is navigable water.

-----Sure, we could have a 42'-foot motor home or a Grand Banks Trawler and have more amenities, but for us nomads, think what that would sacrifice - our most precious asset - mobility. We can find a parking spot at the grocery store or downtown, and we can travel 4-wheel-drive into the Beartooth Mountains. Or, we can trailer the boat into Voyageur National Park or a thousand miles north in a few days if it gets too hot on the Gulf or a hurricane is approaching. We can park in lonely, lovely spots on the Mogollon Rim or anchor in the upper reaches of the Rappahannock, where the 'big ones' will never travel. And all we've sacrificed is some living space.

-----Our first year with Halcyon, we traveled almost 7,000 nautical miles and have been in the Pacific, Gulf and Atlantic and many lakes and rivers between. Yet, we also were 186 days ashore living in our camper from coastal Texas to the Tetons in Wyoming, from the Cascades to the Appalachians. For wandering souls who love nature, we have had the best of both worlds - afloat and ashore.

-----Most importantly, we have been adrift.

[Grime]

My wife has a hard time getting on and off the boat. I move the boat as close to the dock as possible. She has no head movement so she is extra careful. With a 10' beam we have a lot of open room. She has one rule. Keep one hand on the boat at all time. That also means in the cabin also.

I know a couple that live on a Westsail 32 full time. Maybe they will chime in here about their boat.

[Jim_ME]

these folks travel on a C-Dory 22...

Watch out for Frank! Last fall we caught him messing around on a big P*werboat in the Pacific Northwest, and as punishment had no choice but to banish him to the Bahamas for several months...  ;)

[CharlieJ]

My wife has a hard time getting on and off the boat. I move the boat as close to the dock as possible. She has no head movement so she is extra careful. With a 10' beam we have a lot of open room. She has one rule. Keep one hand on the boat at all time. That also means in the cabin also.

I know a couple that live on a Westsail 32 full time. Maybe they will chime in here about their boat.

Maybe later Grime- Rach was flying in tonight at 0100( Houston, then busing to Victoria) so I doubt they'll be online til late tomorrow.

[PattyLee]

I will definitely look into the Westsail 22, because I really want to sail! My lower back is fused, which is a wonderful thing because there is no pain. The handrails would definitely be helpful..especially when getting on and off..I don't want to be a burden to Chris and a worry every time I move.
Ah yes, change. I call it happy feet.  Gotta go. Always searching for something new and different. Seems I'm surrounded by people bored with the same old thing..but fear change and the unknown. I say bring it on. My coworkers envy me because we travel a lot..they don't really want to do it or they would be doing it.
OH!  We did find a local Marina that takes lovebirds..pricey..10 a foot..plus mandatory hurricane haulout and tiedown fee for $1000. Good for two haulouts. Annually.
Very successful during Francis and Jeanne in '04 .
Looking for a draft under 5, height under 48' .That puts more limits on options.

[PattyLee]

Jim, is the Camijo your westsail? 

[Jim_ME]

Jim, is the Camijo your westsail? 

No, of course I would have disclosed that it was. In many ways I wish that boat was mine, but it is outside of my budget range, and larger than I need currently.

[Jim_ME]

I will definitely look into the Westsail 22, because I really want to sail! My lower back is fused, which is a wonderful thing because there is no pain. The handrails would definitely be helpful..especially when getting on and off..I don't want to be a burden to Chris and a worry every time I move.

What Charlie says about it being a good way down the companionway steps is true, especially compared to a 25/26-foot sailboat. It carries a lot of that large volume down to and below the waterline, which displaces a lot of water, so that the boat has to be heavy and the cabin sole is relatively low and results in that change in elevation that the companionway steps have to span. Some boat designs extend the companionway bottom to the cockpit sole to minimize that change in elevation and to appeal to those that want the easiest path from cockpit to cabin sole. the Westsail 32, however, has a full bridge deck (like a full seat that wraps around the forward part of the cockpit sole/well, and then raises the companionway opening still farther above the bridge deck, as many of the most conservative designs typically do. Then if (when) you do take waves that fill the cockpit, the bridge deck and raised companionway opening prevent that water from draining into the cabin, and reduces the volume/weight of the water in the cockpit and effect on the boat trim. Many of the features of the Westsail 32 are designed for those extreme conditions that one may encounter on voyages. The boat being equipped with a windvane/self-steering gear is another such feature.

Do you need a boat design that is optimized to cross oceans? That is an open question. Again, I would rather have excess seaworthiness and not need it, than the other way around. In some aspects there is no real penalty for having them, in others, like the companionway height, there is a cost. Regarding that, it is a price that I would gladly pay. I have taken waves into the cockpit in lumpy conditions in coastal sailing, not far from shore.

We call the boat a Westsail 32, but even that is misleading, since that 32 feet is its length on deck (LOD) and the boat requires a considerable bowsprit to carry its rig and sail area, as many boats of these traditional designs do (and has a boomkin aft). So the boat has an overall length (LOA) that is getting close to 40 feet. If you rent a slip for it, that slip has to accommodate its overall length. so the Westsail is really 32 in name only. The most descriptive number for sailboats is displacement, and the Westsail's 19,500 pounds is revealing...

It may be interesting to compare it with classic bluewater boats of similar displacement (and similar overall length/LOA )...

Hinckley Bermuda 40
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

Cape Dory 40
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2191

Pearson Rhodes 41
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3744

A Westsail 32 (and the above boats) are nearly 4 times the displacement of an Ariel 26, Meridian 25, Albin Vega 27 or Contessa 26...what I think of as the standard "small"capable cruising boats. So the Westsail 32 is a relatively large boat, by comparison.    

[Jim_ME]

Again, given the requirements that you have discussed, I'm very comfortable suggesting that looking at this Westsail 32 will be a beneficial experience, even if you don't purchase the boat. It will become one standard against which to evaluate other boats that you will look at.

If you are seriously thinking about taking that plunge one way or another, and are considering a trawler in this price range (or higher cost), because it doesn't seem like any sailboat in that range could meet your needs, then I would definitely urge you to check out a boat like this Westsail as an alternative, among others.

However, buying a boat of this size and cost--even one that is a good deal--is a major investment and commitment.

As others have suggested (and I have in the past), the least risky scenario is to get a smallish sailboat. I favor one that is trailerable, which is a big leap in maximizing self-reliance, flexibility, and economy. As Adam wrote, learning to sail by doing, is much easier (and more fun) on a smallish boat. Charlie has his Meridian 25 setup on a trailer, as others do their Ariel 26s...boats in that design displacement of just over 5,000 pounds. I like the Cape Dory 25, which at 4,000 lbs and 3-foot draft
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=366
is even easier to trailer/launch/haul/rig and is still fairly seaworthy. The Compac 23 is an attractive trailerable micro cruiser
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=232
There are other designs that I'll follow up with (and maybe have already been posted recently...I haven't checked out all the links yet.)

As has been suggested, especially in this interim period where you have other obligations and may need to keep your house (or an apartment), you can do a lot of sailing and sheltered/modest coastal cruising and gain skills and confidence that you will take with you when and if you get a larger boat. You can experiment and do the trial-and-error method in a small boat in ways that you never could with a large boat. While you still have your house and all of its expenses, it is a big plus to have your sailboat and sailing costs put the smallest burden on your finances as possible. There are many costs involved in keeping, using, maintaining, and upgrading/improving a sailboat and trailer in addition to that initial boat cost. Especially in the initial years, erring on the side of keeping things smallish, simple and economical often seems like the most successful strategy.

I don't mean to discount what Frank had posted below. You may get to a point where you want to take that plunge, and as Grime has written, we cannot just presume that we have an infinite amount of time. Having a plan to start with a smallish, affordable boat and to do lots of sailing/small-boat cruising/and experience building for a few years, even 5 years, while taking advantage of opportunities to crew or charter larger boats, and looking at many boats to also build experience about what is out there and the costs (again to buy, equip, keep, maintain), so that when you may become ready to take that plunge, you have a much broader knowledge and experience base to draw upon, is what I would advise, in general (again, as others also already have).

When I started out in sailing, not only didn't I have the answers, but it took quite a awhile to begin to figure out through experience what the questions were.

[PattyLee]

Jim, where there is a will, there is a way.  Maybe even a handrail would work.  Daytona is just a couple of hours away, so will check it out. Only thing I need to find out is bridge clearance.
I like to think we are smarter now than we were 35 years ago when we first started out. We owe nothing! I have read about people financing boats, wrong! We did that years ago on a new 18 foot bowrider, mistake. We were young and foolish.

[CharlieJ]

When I started out in sailing, not only didn't I have the answers, but it took quite a awhile to begin to figure out through experience what the questions were.

I first stepped my foot on a sailboat in 1957 ( a 12 foot plywood Penguin) and I'm STILL not sure I know all the questions, let alone the answers. :D

I think that's what makes sailing, and messing with boats so intriguing!! It's a never ending learning experience .

[Captain Smollett]

Couple of thoughts regarding vertical clearance.

* "Normal" aspect ratio has changed over the years.  The CCA-ish era boats tended to low aspect rigs (short mast, long boom) and the modern era has taller aspect rigs in general per LOA.

So, a 30 footer designed in the modern era will most likely have a taller mast than a 30 footer designed in the 50's or 60's. 

My Alberg 30 mast height is about 42 ft, and we've been under a 45 ft bridge several times.  Compare that to a Catalina 30, for example, which is 45'11" for the standard rig and 47'11" for the tall rig (http://www.catalina30.com/organization/specifications.htm).

* Cutters tend to have shorter masts for a given LOA.

The upshot of these two observations is that if vertical clearance is a criterion you must meet, and yet you want as large as practical hull-wise, older is more likely to fit your needs than newer and a cutter rig might solve a lot of problems for you as well.

In other words...a Westsail 32 sounds like a solid fit.   ;D

[Mario G]

Jim, is the Camijo your westsail? 

Camijo is a very nice looking boat from what I saw as it motor passed us,  someone needs to buy that boat, I have seen it several times but never with the sails up.

Patty have you looked at any catamarans?

[Grime]

While you are shopping take a look at a Island Packet 27 very nice boats.

[Kettlewell]

They're not popular today, but in the past there were lots of small ketches that provide you with good sail area, a low center of effort, and lower bridge clearance. Our 38-foot ketch can just squeeze under the low bridge over the Okeechobee Waterway, which is a big plus, especially for someone based where you will be midway up the East Coast of Florida. There are some good, cheap, and relatively hurricane proof storage yards in there. Plus, the waterway is a fun trip. Check out the Allied Seawind Ketch for an example of a capable small ketch. An example of which was the first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate the globe. However, there are lots of boats under 32 feet that can clear 48 feet, and a sloop or cutter is a more practical rig on a boat that size or smaller. I owned a 30-foot cutter once and it was incredibly capable, though if I were to rebuild that boat for some reason I would have gone with a sloop rig. The cutter adds unnecessary complication, IMHO, for the benefit gained on a boat that size.