Cyric30's Search for a Boat

[Cyric30]

Hello One and all.

As you may have notices, I'm new here, please read my introduction in the introduction thread if you would like.

I freely admit all if my specifications are based on assumptions, based strictly on reading. so if i am mistaken, please let me know. ( i do know what they say about assuming)  :D

I ask you to all bare with me on this, and correct me as need be. but if you do please explain why, as i like to learn why i am wrong. :)

I'm looking for these basic specification, from my perceived needs in a boat. there is some give and take on some of course, so feel free to chime in with other options.

1: Cheap, YES i said it, say a price range Max of $20,000, but cheaper is better for me. fixer-uppers welcome (i know, no boat is cheap, but some are lest costly than others)

2: 29'-32' LOA range  (once passed 32' price seems to mount and maintenance cost increases as well, this size range can still be single handed as opposed to larger boats, and offers decent space of living and stowage for longer passages.

3: 10' beam or better. or at least fairly close to 10' the wider the beam it seems, the more stowage and space, and since this may be a live-aboard, more space is good. specifically for provisioning (am i right in this?) or are there some boats with narrower beams, but better interior layout that will work?

4: Fiberglass hull (i can work and repair fiberglass with a good degree of confidence)

5: Monohull  (Catamarans seem much more expensive all across the board)

6: Blue water capable, including boats that need upgrading (most will i know)

7: 5' or less draft (boats with grounding holes are not good right?  ???)

8:  Tiller steering, less to break seems like. easier to mount with a wind-vain and auto pilot?

9:  The ability to power with an outboard motor. (just seems like a lighter simpler solution to an inboard)

this is what Ive come up with so far can anyone add to this list.?


On to the boats.

These are the boats Ive looked at that meet these requirements so far, Ive looked at A'lot of good old boats lists as well. but any input on another boat is welcome, just give me some info as to why.?

1. Bayfield 29 (i know its real length is only about 27-28 feet without the bowsprit added, but the large head would be nice it seems.)

2.  Westerly Konsort 29  (really like the looks of this boat, but twin bilge keel for blue water work? Not A'lot of info Ive found about that. Also not A'lot in America and is at my upper price range usually. but standing on its own keels and very shallow draft seems like it could be useful?)

3. Cal 30 Mk1 ( cant really find much about the original Cal-30 to complain about what am i missing.?)

I know Ive missed A'lot of very good boats here mainly due to the 10' Beam spec., so don't get angry, but its hard for me to figure if a Bayfield 29 with a 10'2" beam will have more or less space inside than a Pearson Vanguard 32 with a 9'3" beam, so like I've said any and all info welcome as long as you tell me why :)

Thank you all for your time and patience

Cyric30

[CharlieJ]

Welcome aboard.

Just happens to be an ongoing thread on this EXACT subject

Here's a link to the beginnings- now running three pages.

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,4186.0.html

Be a good place to start ;)

[Cyric30]

Welcome aboard.

Just happens to be an ongoing thread on this EXACT subject

Here's a link to the beginnings- now running three pages.

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,4186.0.html

Be a good place to start ;)

Hay Charles
thanks for the reply.
ive read this thread, and decided to start this one looking for more specifics if possible :)

[Godot]

I have a Bayfield 29, and can't speak to the others.

I haven't heard of any B29s with outboards. I like the diesel. It's easy enough to work on, sips fuels, and powers the boat adequately. The freeboard is high enough that I think a transom mounted outboard would be rather inconvenient. If the included motor is in good shape, if I were you I'd just plan on taking whatever came with the boat.

Most B29s have wheels. I can't figure out why, and think standing behind the wheel would be uncomfortable as the traveler is on the taffrail. Mine has a tiller which works quite well, although if there are a bunch of folk in the cockpit it does sort of get in the way while underway.

The forward head really is wonderful. I found the door to be somewhat intrusive, so I removed it and went with a curtain. Works quite well, although when used in bumpy weather its' far forward position makes it uncomfortable (keep a bottle in the cockpit, just in case). I've also went to a composting head which I really like.

I'm not a huge fan of v-berths, and haven't really missed it. I set up the starboard expanding berth as a more or less permanent double.

The seat backs on the cabin settees are not the most comfortable, and shorten the seats enough to annoy me. I've removed them for the time being (transforming the settees into bunk mode), and find it much more comfortable in general; but I occasionally miss having something to lean back against. I'm still working on the solution.

The boat is wonderful to sail with a decent breeze. A little sluggish when the wind is light; but I still manage to do ok. I think it would make a wonderful liveaboard for a single guy (which was my plan until I hooked up with the new woman...I still spend a lot of nights aboard).

Less than four feet of draft. Well outfit B29s have crossed oceans.

[Cyric30]

I have a Bayfield 29, and can't speak to the others.

I haven't heard of any B29s with outboards. I like the diesel. It's easy enough to work on, sips fuels, and powers the boat adequately. The freeboard is high enough that I think a transom mounted outboard would be rather inconvenient. If the included motor is in good shape, if I were you I'd just plan on taking whatever came with the boat.

Most B29s have wheels. I can't figure out why, and think standing behind the wheel would be uncomfortable as the traveler is on the taffrail. Mine has a tiller which works quite well, although if there are a bunch of folk in the cockpit it does sort of get in the way while underway.

The forward head really is wonderful. I found the door to be somewhat intrusive, so I removed it and went with a curtain. Works quite well, although when used in bumpy weather its' far forward position makes it uncomfortable (keep a bottle in the cockpit, just in case). I've also went to a composting head which I really like.

I'm not a huge fan of v-berths, and haven't really missed it. I set up the starboard expanding berth as a more or less permanent double.

The seat backs on the cabin settees are not the most comfortable, and shorten the seats enough to annoy me. I've removed them for the time being (transforming the settees into bunk mode), and find it much more comfortable in general; but I occasionally miss having something to lean back against. I'm still working on the solution.

The boat is wonderful to sail with a decent breeze. A little sluggish when the wind is light; but I still manage to do ok. I think it would make a wonderful liveaboard for a single guy (which was my plan until I hooked up with the new woman...I still spend a lot of nights aboard).

Less than four feet of draft. Well outfit B29s have crossed oceans.

Hello Godot
Thank you for the reply and information on your Bayfield

I doubt very much I'll find a boat that is all the things I'm wishing for, all boats are a compromise Ive read.

A few reasons for my wish of an outboard are, the freeing up of the engine areas weight for the possibility of adding a battery bank for solar and wind power, or at least more stowage.

And while i have worked on diesels quite a bit in my life, I'm better with 4 stroke engines and i would think that they would be much easier to maintain and work on in many far flung places of the world?

Can you speak on the diesels fuel use vs.  say the common 9.9 outboard any.?
also would a long shaft outboard be any easier a mount solution to the transom?

I can see your point about a tiller with a cockpit full of ppl, but wouldn't you have the same trouble with a wheel as well? i guess it depend on how and where its mounted.

How do you like the composting head? Its something i have looked into for where I'm at now, and seems a much better solution on a boat, with being able to do away with the complex toletry systems most boats use (compared to a composter i mean)

I would end up cramming a V-berth full of stuff instead of sleeping in one anyway as i tend to not to need much room to sleep.....but as you say you never know who might come along in life.

Can you give me a bit of idea how much room you have? and stowage area? and how it compares to any other boat you have been on? I'm not in a position to exactly go boat hoping to find out  :(

Ive also have heard of B29s doing ocean crossings, whats some stuff you would outfit on your boat if you where going to do one? anything specifice to the B29?

i know lost of questions but i thank you for the time you have given me thus far and hope to continue the conversation some more.

Regards
Cyric30

[CharlieJ]

This will be a big argument starter (maybe) but I've had a wheel boat. I don't want another- give me a tiller every time. The tiller can be tilted up to clear the cockpit, when  anchored- the wheel is ALWAYS there.

But- that's simply personal preference :D

And I used  to crew on a 50 foot (on deck) schooner with a tiller- 9 feet long, so boat size doesn't change much.

[Mario G]

My 32 Endeavour has a wheel that we remove when anchored but would rather have a tiller, so no arguments here Charlie.

Its hard to get comfortable after hours at the wheel where it is easy and much more comfortable  to lie across the cockpit.

[Godot]

When sailing the tiller extends most of the way into the cockpit. When maneuvering, other people can get in the way of the tiller. Also, the way the b29 cockpit is layed out, it takes a bit of figuring to find the best way to handle the sheets. That said, I've done well with three people in the cockpit while sailing. When not sailing the tiller does tip out and open up the cockpit. Perhaps the best choice is one of those wheels that mounts at the back of the cockpit where you actually steer from in front of the wheel. But those are rare (I had one on my tiny Weekender sailboat many years ago, which was useful in such a tight space). You can see the wheel a bit in the photo below...



Regards fuel consumption, I'm averaging somewhere under half a gallon an hour on the diesel. I haven't done the math; but I recently installed an hour meter and know I have a full tank right now, so when I next fill up (probably well into summer, probably during my month long July cruise to New England) I should be able to tell you how much I'm burning. In any case, it is significantly less than my two stroke 9.9 Johnson I had on (smaller, lighter) Godot. I'm not sure how a four stroke outboard would compare.

I've had the composting head for a year or so. So far, I really like it. No smell, little muss, and more pleasant to deal with than frequent pump outs. It is a bit taller than a regular toilet, though, and needs some extra room to swing the mixing arm, so whatever boat you end up with you will need to do some careful measuring before converting.

Stowage seems generous compared to other similar sized boats. Under settees, in big area behind the stove, in cabinets above the settees, etc...; but will fill up quick. It is still a pretty small boat. I'm not sure you can do much better in the size range without sacrificing 1/4 berths or something, although if you are willing to do that you will be able to hold several totes worth of extra stuff.

Water and fuel tankage are both 20 gallons. I figure 20 gallons of diesel is roughly equal to 200 miles (I think more, really; but I like to be conservative). 20 gallons of water might be a little sparce on a long cruise. I'm planning on installing a new water tank where the old holding tank used to be. I'm having trouble finding a tank the right size and shape, though. Even the bladders I've found aren't dimensioned in the most efficient manner; although that is the way I'll likely end up going.

The only thing I would really want for long distance cruising is a wind vane. The tiller pilot works quite well, though, so I think I'll make the not insignificant investment in a vane if it gets to the point where I expect to spend weeks at sea. A second tiller pilot as a spare might be worth consideration in the meantime if I'm going to be away from civilization for awhile. I also wish there was a convenient place to install another battery or two. Eventually a few more solar panels will be installed, as well.

This is one boat. Do a search and you should find a thread I started on it. I like the Bayfield a whole lot; but there are lots of other boats I would have been just as happy with. Keep an open mind.

[DarrenC]

At some point during Carita's mystery refit in her past, someone paid a significant sum to install a wheel.  For the life of me I can't understand why and I certainly wouldn't have chosen it, but it's what I have so it is what it is.

On the plus side it's incredibly responsive, and the U-shaped seating does suit it well, enabling a variety of comfortable helm positions.  With my outboard throttle mounted in the cockpit it also helps me feel much more "in control" when docking at my slip and threading through our popular anchorage.

She also has an easily-mounted backup tiller which I have yet to use, although now that I've learned about sheet-to-tiller steering I'm going to have to give that a trial in the upcoming season.

[Godot]

I suspect wheels became popular as part of an advertising push many years ago.

Once upon a time the most common question you'd get about a boat was "how many does she sleep."  The idea being to cram a big boat, TARDIS like, into a small boat. I think the wheel became a symbol of Yachting as opposed to Boating.

There is also the issue that most people are familiar with how to drive a car, and therefor are comfortable with a wheel. A tiller seems mysterious and scary.

I could be wrong.

[Jim_ME]

This will be a big argument starter (maybe) but I've had a wheel boat. I don't want another- give me a tiller every time.
But- that's simply personal preference :D

I'm with you on this Charlie!

Wheels are just nature's way of telling us that our boat is too big!  ;)

[Frank]

Godot....what a pretty lil boat !! Tons of character! What was it? Wood or glass?

[Godot]

It's a Stevenson Weekender, a little plywood gaffer. I built it back in 98 or 99 I think over about six or seven months of very part time work. A fun project and a fun boat. I used to take that thing sailing all over Narragansett Bay, Lake George, and various other places. It was small enough to trailer behind an old Toyota Corolla (although launching was never easy as the car was simply too low). I spent as long as a week on-board, never touching land. Given the size of the interior, not much bigger than a two person tent, this was an interesting challenge in minimalism. I miss that boat.

[Cyric30]

Hay all
OK, OK, I'm not ready to be the instigator of the war of the tiller & wheel OK :)

Gogot is this boats wheel like what yours was? or is this completely diffrent.? its an intresting way of doing it i had never seen, but seems like it auto pilot might not work well?
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/41399#

B/W like the Seawind good reputation and  seems like good stowage capacity as well.


Gogot I'm not sure as to how a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke of equal size might differ in fuel economy, but would be an intresting topic to research some time.

the stowage is the one of the main issues with me as if /when i do something like this it will most likely be for a good bit and would like to bring alot of supplies with me in the beginning, another reason i wanted to remove the inboard, but i do see your point if it ain't broke don't fix it, if the motors and components are sound why mess with it. unless its a gas inboard, then I'll always worry about it as i have seen several  old carburetter cars burn to the ground.

thanks for the info in the composting head, it seems to eliminate alot of potential problems on a boat, and it seems that the toilet being a bit to high is a fairly c common thing from my research at least, and definitely add more water storage would be one the top of the list for me at least.
and any area where someones not sleeping or setting is prime to become stowage area unless it becomes a safety concern that is :)
batteries and Solar and hopefully wind are a must in my thinking along with low power consumption items

i believe i looked at your Bayfield thread as well before posting there lotsa good info there as well so thanks for that

and an open mind is something i believe i have on this subject, so many choices to look through :)

When sailing the tiller extends most of the way into the cockpit. When maneuvering, other people can get in the way of the tiller. Also, the way the b29 cockpit is laid out, it takes a bit of figuring to find the best way to handle the sheets. That said, I've done well with three people in the cockpit while sailing. When not sailing the tiller does tip out and open up the cockpit. Perhaps the best choice is one of those wheels that mounts at the back of the cockpit where you actually steer from in front of the wheel. But those are rare (I had one on my tiny Weekender sailboat many years ago, which was useful in such a tight space). You can see the wheel a bit in the photo below...



Regards fuel consumption, I'm averaging somewhere under half a gallon an hour on the diesel. I haven't done the math; but I recently installed an hour meter and know I have a full tank right now, so when I next fill up (probably well into summer, probably during my month long July cruise to New England) I should be able to tell you how much I'm burning. In any case, it is significantly less than my two stroke 9.9 Johnson I had on (smaller, lighter) Godot. I'm not sure how a four stroke outboard would compare.

I've had the composting head for a year or so. So far, I really like it. No smell, little muss, and more pleasant to deal with than frequent pump outs. It is a bit taller than a regular toilet, though, and needs some extra room to swing the mixing arm, so whatever boat you end up with you will need to do some careful measuring before converting.

Stowage seems generous compared to other similar sized boats. Under settees, in big area behind the stove, in cabinets above the settees, etc...; but will fill up quick. It is still a pretty small boat. I'm not sure you can do much better in the size range without sacrificing 1/4 berths or something, although if you are willing to do that you will be able to hold several totes worth of extra stuff.

Water and fuel tankage are both 20 gallons. I figure 20 gallons of diesel is roughly equal to 200 miles (I think more, really; but I like to be conservative). 20 gallons of water might be a little sparse on a long cruise. I'm planning on installing a new water tank where the old holding tank used to be. I'm having trouble finding a tank the right size and shape, though. Even the bladders I've found aren't dimensioned in the most efficient manner; although that is the way I'll likely end up going.

The only thing I would really want for long distance cruising is a wind vane. The tiller pilot works quite well, though, so I think I'll make the not insignificant investment in a vane if it gets to the point where I expect to spend weeks at sea. A second tiller pilot as a spare might be worth consideration in the meantime if I'm going to be away from civilization for awhile. I also wish there was a convenient place to install another battery or two. Eventually a few more solar panels will be installed, as well.

This is one boat. Do a search and you should find a thread I started on it. I like the Bayfield a whole lot; but there are lots of other boats I would have been just as happy with. Keep an open mind.

[Godot]

The Seawind is a sweet boat. Yup, that's the kind of wheel I was referring to. Best of both worlds. Except sheet to tiller steering wouldn't be terribly practical, of course.

[Cyric30]

It looks like a nice boat, but as with so many thing in life, it might look good, but be bad  when you get to looking close

[CharlieJ]

H

Gogot I'm not sure as to how a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke of equal size might differ in fuel economy, but would be an intresting topic to research some time.

I can give you some real time insight on that. First trip across to Florida aboard Tehani we had a 9.9 hp 2 stroke. On a 3 gallon tank, running at about 5 knots, we'd get 2 hours, 45 minutes on a tank.

Half way back we crapped the engine and bought a new Yamaha 8 hp 4 stroke which I've run ever since. Again, running at roughly 5 knots, we'd run 7 1/2 hours on that same 3 gallon tank!!!

PLUS, you can carry on a normal conversation in the cockpit, be cause it is WORLDS quieter.


I've got maybe 7500 miles behind me with that engine now, and day in and day out, in flat water ( no wind, no current) it delivers roughly 15 MPG.
Loaded for cruise, Tehani displaces roughly 7800 pounds.

I now have two 6 gallon tanks normally filled to five gallons,  and carry a pair of 2 gallon jugs as spare fuel. I can usually run about 175-185 miles with that fuel load.

No way on earth I'd revert back to a 2 stroke as my main engine. For a small dinghy engine, fine, not on the big boat

[Cyric30]

Charles
Thank you for the insight on the 2vs.4 stroke outboard, may i ask what kind of boat Tehani is.? or a link possibly.? and say 15 Gal. of gas isent really a whole lot as things go, how do you have yours mounted.?

H

Gogot I'm not sure as to how a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke of equal size might differ in fuel economy, but would be an intresting topic to research some time.

I can give you some real time insight on that. First trip across to Florida aboard Tehani we had a 9.9 hp 2 stroke. On a 3 gallon tank, running at about 5 knots, we'd get 2 hours, 45 minutes on a tank.

Half way back we crapped the engine and bought a new Yamaha 8 hp 4 stroke which I've run ever since. Again, running at roughly 5 knots, we'd run 7 1/2 hours on that same 3 gallon tank!!!

PLUS, you can carry on a normal conversation in the cockpit, be cause it is WORLDS quieter.


I've got maybe 7500 miles behind me with that engine now, and day in and day out, in flat water ( no wind, no current) it delivers roughly 15 MPG.
Loaded for cruise, Tehani displaces roughly 7800 pounds.

I now have two 6 gallon tanks normally filled to five gallons,  and carry a pair of 2 gallon jugs as spare fuel. I can usually run about 175-185 miles with that fuel load.

No way on earth I'd revert back to a 2 stroke as my main engine. For a small dinghy engine, fine, not on the big boat

[CharlieJ]

Charles
Thank you for the insight on the 2vs.4 stroke outboard, may i ask what kind of boat Tehani is.? or a link possibly.? and say 15 Gal. of gas isent really a whole lot as things go, how do you have yours mounted.?

Tehani is a Seafarer Meridian 25, designed by Phillip Rhodes and built in Holland in 1961. Hull # 10 of ?? LOL is 24'10, beam 7' draft 3'6", air draft 34 feet, dry disp 5300, loaded for cruise, I figure 7800

Here's a link to pictures in one of my albums in the Members Galleries " section here on SailFar-

http://sailfar.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=20

As to the fuel, there are a a pair of 6 gallon tanks, mounted each side of the engine in the lazerette. The pair of 2 gallon jugs wedge each side of the compass box in the very forward end of the cockpit,  Not in the way and never move.

1st picture is looking down into the engine compartment in the lazerette taken when the tanks were the old 3 gallon ones.

Second pic is the opening in the bulkhead for the engine tiller access. Engine is always in the water. Can't be tilted up. Twist grip on handle has since been shortened so it doesn't interfere with the locker latch. Engine doesn't swivel at all. The valve you can see just above the inclinometer is for switching fuel tanks. They are permanently plumped through a filter and that valve, so hoses don't have to be changed.

[Cyric30]

Hay Charlie

Thank you for the info, and those first 2 pics are wicked scary man, i consider myself fairly handy, but i don't think i would have bitten off that job, so my hat is off to you man. :) and the results of your work are awesome. ;D
I have seen several articles about older boats being retrofitted with Lazerette outboards, but not alot of info on what makes them a good candidate for the refit any info.? although i see the Meridians came with them as a factory option,  a shame the outboard doesn't  tiller up or turn, i imagine the outboard turning would be extremely handy with turning the full keel?

Charles
Thank you for the insight on the 2vs.4 stroke outboard, may i ask what kind of boat Tehani is.? or a link possibly.? and say 15 Gal. of gas isn't really a whole lot as things go, how do you have yours mounted.?

Tehani is a Seafarer Meridian 25, designed by Phillip Rhodes and built in Holland in 1961. Hull # 10 of ?? LOL is 24'10, beam 7' draft 3'6", air draft 34 feet, dry disp 5300, loaded for cruise, I figure 7800

Here's a link to pictures in one of my albums in the Members Galleries " section here on SailFar-

http://sailfar.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=20

As to the fuel, there are a a pair of 6 gallon tanks, mounted each side of the engine in the lazerette. The pair of 2 gallon jugs wedge each side of the compass box in the very forward end of the cockpit,  Not in the way and never move.

1st picture is looking down into the engine compartment in the lazerette taken when the tanks were the old 3 gallon ones.

Second pic is the opening in the bulkhead for the engine tiller access. Engine is always in the water. Can't be tilted up. Twist grip on handle has since been shortened so it doesn't interfere with the locker latch. Engine doesn't swivel at all. The valve you can see just above the inclinometer is for switching fuel tanks. They are permanently plumped through a filter and that valve, so hoses don't have to be changed.