Cyric30's Search for a Boat

[CharlieJ]

Only a problem when backing up- She does not like to back to starboard. No real difference between that and an inboard boat though. You get used to that and plan for it. If needed, spring lines are your friend :D

Biggest problem is there is zero antifouling for aluminum outboards that actually works, since TBT was banned. You just get used to the fact that you scrub the lower unit every few weeks, from the dinghy. Can't used copper based due to electrolysis.

Other wise, no biggie. And I like it FAR better than an outboard on the transom. The Yamaha has the shifter right there on the tiller handle, so operates much like an inboard.

[Kettlewell]

Used a 9.9HP Yamaha 4-stroke for about 12 years as the main propulsion on our 32-foot catamaran including several trips up and down the East Coast ICW. Very reliable and relatively fuel efficient. There are two problems with 4-strokes that you need to address. First, a full-size fuel filter system (not just an inline cheapy) filter will save you lots of hassles. The low-speed jet is tiny in these things and the weensiest piece of crud will plug it, making your engine hard or impossible to start and run at slow speeds. Learn to take off the carb, clean it, and put it back on the engine quickly. I had it down to less than 10 minutes and I kept the tools close to the engine so that I could do it underway if needed. Second, like all outboards they are very prone to corrosion and fairly quickly the entire lower unit will fuse solidly together. I learned the hard way that sometimes the only way to disassemble them once in this state was lots of heat and some serious pounding. When I put it back together I put goopy gasket compound in each joint in order to provide some protection and it did help.

In some areas you wouldn't be able to operate your motor if left in the water for a couple of weeks due to fouling. In SC where I lived for several years you either had your boat professionally scraped by a diver once a month, even with antifouling paint, or you couldn't move. I wouldn't really consider an outboard unless it could be completely pulled out of the water when not in use.

[Cyric30]

Hay Charlie

Could you elaborate on what TBT is.? in new to all this lingo still :)
from my reading its a pain in the rear backing these type boats up, but as with everything practice makes the task easier to accomplish :)
this whole electrolysis thing still mystifies me somewhat, but i can see aluminum eroding quite easy as i have acid etched a few pieces for fun in the past.

Kettlewell welcome to the discussion :)
Could you elaborate on the fuel filter system a bit.? are you talking roughly the same type system that diesels use?
its my personal belief you should be able to work on your own equipment if its relatively straight forward stuff at least. I'm not going to try to tear down a new car motor and put it back together, but these things don't seem that complicated.
thanks for the info on the joint goop will remember that, and from what you and Charles both say, leaving the outboard in the water is best avoided if possible, seen a refit on the Atom site of a Lazerette mounted outboard that would  both, pull up, store int the Laz and could be turned while in use, seems like alot of work but the reward would also be good as well.
i find it strange that will all the modern compounds and paint and such that there hasn't been something made that's a better antifouling agent that whats out there, just seems strange to me i guess.

Used a 9.9HP Yamaha 4-stroke for about 12 years as the main propulsion on our 32-foot catamaran including several trips up and down the East Coast ICW. Very reliable and relatively fuel efficient. There are two problems with 4-strokes that you need to address. First, a full-size fuel filter system (not just an in-line cheapy) filter will save you lots of hassles. The low-speed jet is tiny in these things and the weensiest piece of crud will plug it, making your engine hard or impossible to start and run at slow speeds. Learn to take off the carb, clean it, and put it back on the engine quickly. I had it down to less than 10 minutes and I kept the tools close to the engine so that I could do it underway if needed. Second, like all outboards they are very prone to corrosion and fairly quickly the entire lower unit will fuse solidly together. I learned the hard way that sometimes the only way to disassemble them once in this state was lots of heat and some serious pounding. When I put it back together I put goopy gasket compound in each joint in order to provide some protection and it did help.

In some areas you wouldn't be able to operate your motor if left in the water for a couple of weeks due to fouling. In SC where I lived for several years you either had your boat professionally scraped by a diver once a month, even with antifouling paint, or you couldn't move. I wouldn't really consider an outboard unless it could be completely pulled out of the water when not in use.

Only a problem when backing up- She does not like to back to starboard. No real difference between that and an inboard boat though. You get used to that and plan for it. If needed, spring lines are your friend :D

Biggest problem is there is zero antifouling for aluminum outboards that actually works, since TBT was banned. You just get used to the fact that you scrub the lower unit every few weeks, from the dinghy. Can't used copper based due to electrolysis.

Other wise, no biggie. And I like it FAR better than an outboard on the transom. The Yamaha has the shifter right there on the tiller handle, so operates much like an inboard.

[Kettlewell]

I used a full-sized Mercury spin on fuel filter--looks about like a typical oil filter on a car. You just spin off and on the fuel filters and replace every 100 hours or so--does wonders for keeping water and crud out of your motor.

[CharlieJ]

"Could you elaborate on what TBT is.? in new to all this lingo still "

TBT is Tri Butyl Tin. Was a very good anti fouling paint, but in large concentrations, killed surrounding marine life. Places with little exchange of water and hundreds of boats. So it was totally banned, instead of being limited to things like out drives and lower units. The normal sledge hammer approach.

Can't argue against the ban as a bottom paint, but the other is a little silly. Very small concentrations didn't cause trouble.

Electrolysis is the reason most outboards have a zinc attached, and in my Yamaha, two zincs- one inside the engine, and one under the anti-ventilation plate

James Baldwin happened to be working on that engine lift system when I chanced to spend a day with him some years ago. Problem was it had to come up over the lazerette top, and also in one iteration, had a slot cut in the transom for the leg to tilt into. I refused to destroy the transom looks for a blasted outboard. I'd rather maintain the outboard more often. Besides, Tehani doesn't have room. Takes a wrench, two folks, and about 30 minutes to get the engine out, but I've installed lifting rings so I can do it alone using the main sheet- Going to make maintenance much easier

In this pic the engine is hanging in my shop from that lifting bridle


For periods of time when I won't be using the boat for a while, I have a rubberized canvas flushing bag that pulls up over the lower unit, and fills with fresh water. Not in use right now- water is way too cold to need it

[Kettlewell]

On the subject of engines--they are a critical factor in choosing a boat. You will find very few boats above 30 feet with an outboard, and not too many cruising boats above 25 feet with one. One of the reasons is that long term use highly favors a diesel inboard for both fuel economy and longevity. My current boat engine is approaching 5000 hours of use and it runs like new except for a small water pump problem. But, I can relatively easily replace the very robust water pump and probably get another 5000 hours out of the next one. My main point being is that when looking at sail boats it is easy to overlook the engine, which is a critical component and often can make a cruise miserable if not working well. Things to look for include: brand and history, maintenance, any rebuilds along the way, installation (can you get at it for work), parts availability, etc.

[s/v Faith]

Couple thoughts:

  The old "tempo" spray on paint with TBT was the best.  I still have a couple cans of it I bought right after it was taken off of the market.

  I love the Yamaha 8 / 9.9hp four stroke, and the big Honda is nice too.  What I don't like about them are their size and weight. 

  My route has been slightly different then Charlie's.  I had the Yamaha 6hp (same as the 8) 2 stroke.  Like the 4 stroke, it has 2 cylinders so it runs smooth and quiet... Has a more pleasant sound then a single.

  I had a similar burn rate, normally between 1/2 and 3/4 gallons per hour.  It was a great motor, I just ran it into the ground. 

  My next motor was the Tohatsu 6hp 4 stroke.  As a single cyl, it was lighter then the 2cyl 8hp....  But it vibrates like crazy!  I bought it brand new (it is the exact same motor as the Nissan and Mercury) and it was neither as smooth or powerful as my old yamaha 6.

  After using the Tohatsu off and on for a few months, I pickled it and put it in my shop where it sits today.  Worst $1,500 I spent was going from 2 stroke to 4 stroke.

  I would have gone with the same motor Charlie has, but frankly the modifications to the outboard well would have been extensive but more significantly it was twice as heavy as the 2 stroke.  Most small boats do not react well to weight in the stern...  I trust Charlie does not have much of a problem with this, but notice many similar sized boats with large outboards who "squat by the stern" and don't float on their lines.

  2 stroke motors do use more fuel, but they certainly have not lost popularity.  Go to the dingy dock cruising in the Bahamas, and you will see lots of them out there... With good reason.  They are lighter, more simple, and more dependable.  The Yamaha 8/9.9 four stroke is a wonderful motor, but it does have its drawbacks.

  I shopped around and found another used Yamaha 6hp, and if I have to replace that I will just sail to the Bahamas to buy another 2 stroke. 

  I also can "pivot" my outboard in the well, which makes docking much much easier.... 

 

[CharlieJ]

The Yamaha 6 hp, 4 stroke is no longer a two cylinder- it's a single now. It was the exact engine other than carb when I bought the 8. But there weren't any available all over Louisiana, we had a crapped out engine 400 miles from home, and HAD to do something. I chose the Yahama over an 8 hp Tohatsu because the shifter was on the tiller, instead of the side of the engine. NEVER been sorry. I've had engine troubles exactly twice in the years (and MANY hours) of use, and both times were due to water in the fuel. I now ALWAYS run Sta-Bil in the tanks, AND SeaFoam. Since adding SeaFoam regularly, zero problems.

As for the weight, yes, it adds a good bit back there- I just keep the bow water tank full, using from the big tank under the cockpit. Plus my 100 feet of chain is up there in the bow, so that offsets. Do I wish it was lighter? certainly- I wish it weighed 20 pounds :D

I bought a Yamaha 4 hp 4 stroke for Necessity-single cyl, runs nice but vibrates. Not NEARLY as smooth as the 2 cyl engines. But that 4 hp engine weighed exactly 6 pounds more than the 6 hp 2 stroke Johnson I took off the boat.

Totally agree on the 2 strokes for dinghies, but new ones just aren't around, and the older ones are getting tired. Wish it weren't so

One other thing- I started paying attention to what was hanging on the back of boats when I was in the Keys, before heading to the Bahamas, while I was in the Bahamas, and all up the east coast. Yamaha is sure doing SOMETHING right because they OWN the market. I saw 4 or 5 Yamahas for every one or two other brands. Mercury's were next, which is strange because they are a rebranded Nissan/Tohatsu.

[s/v Faith]

Absolutely agree, Yamaha has a great product.

Fwiw, the 6hp 4 stroke changed, but the 2stroke i was talking about but has always been 2 cly (in the 6  / 8hp model i favor.). They are not available new in the US, but the rest of the world still sells them.

I bought a 4hp single cly 2 stroke at Abaco Yacht Services in Black Sound at Green Turtle last spring.  They had shiney new 8hp 2 cly 2 strokes sitting on the floor... I almost picked one up just to have a spare!  :)

They sell both the standard model (the same one that used to be sold in the US) and the enduro.  The enduro is slightly lighter, and cheaper.

[Kettlewell]

I hope this doesn't start a big fight, but I highly recommend using full synthetic motor oil in any 4-stroke outboard despite whatever oil is recommended by the manufacturer. It is readily available now at any WalMart. It definitely extends the life of the engine significantly, in my experience.

[CharlieJ]

Absolutely agree, Yamaha has a great product.

Fwiw, the 6hp 4 stroke changed, but the 2stroke i was talking about but has always been 2 cly (in the 6  / 8hp model i favor.). They are not available new in the US, but the rest of the world still sells them.

I bought a 4hp single cly 2 stroke at Abaco Yacht Services in Black Sound at Green Turtle last spring.  They had shiney new 8hp 2 cly 2 strokes sitting on the floor... I almost picked one up just to have a spare!  :)

They sell both the standard model (the same one that used to be sold in the US) and the enduro.  The enduro is slightly lighter, and cheaper.

Neat- I'd like a 2, 2.5, or 3 HP 2 stroke please ;D I had the 2.5 Merc on the inflatable dinghy, but both are now elsewhere

[Tim]

Absolutely agree, Yamaha has a great product.

Fwiw, the 6hp 4 stroke changed, but the 2stroke i was talking about but has always been 2 cly (in the 6  / 8hp model i favor.). They are not available new in the US, but the rest of the world still sells them.

I bought a 4hp single cly 2 stroke at Abaco Yacht Services in Black Sound at Green Turtle last spring.  They had shiney new 8hp 2 cly 2 strokes sitting on the floor... I almost picked one up just to have a spare!  :)

They sell both the standard model (the same one that used to be sold in the US) and the enduro.  The enduro is slightly lighter, and cheaper.

I just resurrected an Evinrude 8hp 2cycle 2cyl for the Ariel, weighs the same as my Honda 5. Two strokers are terrible on gas mileage, but since it is JUST auxiliary, I can deal with it.

[Kettlewell]

I bought a brand new 2-stroke 8HP Johnson back in 2005 after they had been discontinued in the US--I think it was the last one Defender had. One of the best boat purchases I've ever made. That motor has been the most reliable dink motor ever. I think the only thing I've done to it since then is replace the spark plugs--once--and only then because I thought after 5 years I should do something for the motor! I use the blue StaBil in every tank of gas and I've never had a fuel-related problem. Strangely, it seems to have gotten more powerful with age. When new I could just barely get up onto plane with two people onboard, but now it does it with no problem.

But, I would go with 4-stroke for long-term main boat propulsion, and 2-stroke for dink use if you can find a good one. Here in the USA the place to look is inland freshwater places with a short season, like around here in upstate NY. You see a lot of barely used older motors that have pushed around a jon boat for the annual fishing trip on some pond. Find one of those and they make a great dink motor.

[Cyric30]

On the subject of engine's are a critical factor in choosing a boat. You will find very few boats above 30 feet with an outboard, and not too many cruising boats above 25 feet with one. One of the reasons is that long term use highly favors a diesel inboard for both fuel economy and longevity. My current boat engine is approaching 5000 hours of use and it runs like new except for a small water pump problem. But, I can relatively easily replace the very robust water pump and probably get another 5000 hours out of the next one. My main point being is that when looking at sail boats it is easy to overlook the engine, which is a critical component and often can make a cruise miserable if not working well. Things to look for include: brand and history, maintenance, any rebuilds along the way, installation (can you get at it for work), parts availability, etc.

Kettlewell, while i know little about boat inboards, Ive had quite a bit of experience with old diesels on tractors 1000's of hours on them and tinkering with over my life and i whole hardily agree with the "robustness" of them, some are better than others mind you, but some are just bullet proof for sure. I'm not going to take a boat with a perfectly good inboard and throw it out, but if i find one with a bad engine or a gas engine, i would replace it, and an outboard seems the best/easiest (for some boats) option. i read that the universal engines are re-branded Kubota's like they use on many tractors, which seems like would be a good one, and while i don't know much about them, Ive  helped a friend with a Yanmar engine on a small tractor and it was a very simple setup, and since there Chinese, if you where cruising the pacific parts might be easier/quicker to get, but who knows.

"Could you elaborate on what TBT is.? in new to all this lingo still "

TBT is Tri Butyl Tin. Was a very good anti fouling paint, but in large concentrations, killed surrounding marine life. Places with little exchange of water and hundreds of boats. So it was totally banned, instead of being limited to things like out drives and lower units. The normal sledge hammer approach.

Can't argue against the ban as a bottom paint, but the other is a little silly. Very small concentrations didn't cause trouble.

Electrolysis is the reason most outboards have a zinc attached, and in my Yamaha, two zincs- one inside the engine, and one under the  plate

James Baldwin happened to be working on that engine lift system when I chanced to spend a day with him some years ago. Problem was it had to come up over the lazerette top, and also in one iteration, had a slot cut in the transom for the leg to tilt into. I refused to destroy the transom looks for a blasted outboard. I'd rather maintain the outboard more often. Besides, Tehani doesn't have room. Takes a wrench, two folks, and about 30 minutes to get the engine out, but I've installed lifting rings so I can do it alone using the main sheet- Going to make maintenance much easier

In this pic the engine is hanging in my shop from that lifting bridle


For periods of time when I won't be using the boat for a while, I have a rubberized canvas flushing bag that pulls up over the lower unit, and fills with fresh water. Not in use right now- water is way too cold to need it

Charlie
Thanks for the info on TBT
talking with Mr. Baldwin fore some time would be awesome, seems like an man with a mountain of useful information, and I'm sure and equal amount of awesome stories.
The Lazerrete conversion he did was inticate, but i don't think they all would have to be like that one.
Do you worry about the bridle point breaking your housing.?
Very neet idea about the rubberized bag, simple solution to problems, got to love it, although i assume theres a way to displace any sea water with fresh???

But, I would go with 4-stroke for long-term main boat propulsion, and 2-stroke for dink use if you can find a good one. Here in the USA the place to look is inland freshwater places with a short season, like around here in upstate NY. You see a lot of barely used older motors that have pushed around a jon boat for the annual fishing trip on some pond. Find one of those and they make a great dink motor.

On the subject of freshwater outboard, you can usually always pick up a few around here out of the local papers that aren't running, but the problem is that, no one around here can really work on them, we have lots small engine ppl, but most aren't familiar with outboard enough to do a competent job, wonder if there might Be a market for buying them up and bringing a load to the coast?, guess it depends on they type.

[CharlieJ]

"Do you worry about the bridle point breaking your housing.? "

Not at all. The load is spread over 3 points and each of the rear ones has two bolts, thru the lower part of the housing- it's almost 1/4 thick right there. Front line ties around the forward handle.Engine weighs 86 pounds, so roughly 30 pounds load per point. In the pic I  posted earlier, it's hanging in the shop from a chainfall while I worked on finalizing the repainting.

And yes, the flushing bag has a hose attachment so it can be filled with fresh water. Here's a link to the one I have. You can run the engine in the bag.

http://www.burgees.com/flushingbag/Model_MB1.htm

[Cyric30]

Hay Charlie
sounds like the outboards housing is both thicker and tougher than i would have thought, score 1 for a quality product :), flush bag i a interesting solution, necessity is the mother off invention as the quote goes :)

[Kettlewell]

I bought one of those lifting slings for outboards made from black nylon webbing. It straps tightly around the motor and has a nice padded handle on the top. I routinely hoist my motor on and off the dink with it, using a block and tackle from the end of my mizzen boom. It also makes the motor easier to manhandle around when just lifting it. Still, I wouldn't consider using an outboard for main propulsion unless it could be fully lifted/tilted out of the water for sailing and while at anchor.

[CharlieJ]

I bought one of those lifting slings for outboards made from black nylon webbing. It straps tightly around the motor and has a nice padded handle on the top. I routinely hoist my motor on and off the dink with it, using a block and tackle from the end of my mizzen boom. It also makes the motor easier to manhandle around when just lifting it. Still, I wouldn't consider using an outboard for main propulsion unless it could be fully lifted/tilted out of the water for sailing and while at anchor.

I used to have one of those slings- worked well, but I think for me, my set up will be far better. The engine sits below foot level in the laz, so is very difficult to hoist. Plus the tiller handle must be unbolted and fed through as it's being lifted. Really a two person job without the slings.



On the not being able to tilt, the boat doesn't give much choice sometimes-  you go with what you have. Much better than giving up tons of room for an inboard. For me anyway. And I've put some 10,000 miles behind her so far.

Different ships, different long splices ;)

[Kettlewell]

If you have a boat that sails really well I'd suggest going with the smallest outboard you think will do the trick, not the largest. The savings in weight and on your back would be enormous, and the performance loss only noticed in rough conditions. Our main outboard pooped out on the 32-foot cat once and we put the 2.5 hp dinghy motor on the bracket and proceeded for 40-50 miles in a dead calm. I was surprised to see we could make about 3.5 knots, which wasn't too bad considering a 9.9HP Yamaha could only do about 5.5 knots under the same conditions. I had some friends who crossed the Atlantic, cruised all over Europe, and did large portions of the ICW on a sweet sailing 27-foot trimaran that carried a little 2.5 HP dinghy motor as main propulsion. It doesn't take much horsepower to get most boats to go about the square root of the waterline length. I see a lot of outboard powered boats carrying way too much weight right aft, which impacts your sailing performance too.

[CharlieJ]

Yep- I can move Tehani with the little 2.2 merc. Hard to STOP though, and backing up? Forget it.

Originally I wanted a very small engine, that I could easily remove and lay crossways in the lazzerette. Running the ICW between places where you can sail showed me the impracticality of that. There are LOTS of miles long straight ditches twixt here and the Chesapeake Bay where you simply can't sail. Some parts in Louisiana are 40 miles of rifle barrel straight. A 6 HP would do every thing my 8 does, but when I bought mine, the 6 and 8 were the same engine, same weight, different carbs. Didn't make sense to buy  one.

Another point is- many draw bridges (and locks) won't allow passage with sails up, even with the engine running. Putting an engine back in place would be a royal PITA!!

What I'd REALLY like is a 4 HP, two cylinder 4 stroke, weighing around 30 pounds.

That engine doesn't exist, so I'll keep what I have, sail when I can ( which I do often) and motor when I can't.