Smallest cruiser that will keep a couple happy.....

[Frank]

Like most here I dream about boats a lot.....Vicky thinks "TOO MUCH".  There has been talks at various times about what constitutes a good boat. That varies by individual needs. The majic is "the smallest-simplest boat that fills your needs"
I can do a quick list as it pertains to myself:
Shallow draft (under 4ft)
traditional looks
Private head (floor drain for shower)(aft if possible)
good ventalation
good-well insulated ice box (or fridge)
2 settee's so each can lounge and read on rain days
standing headroom
cutter rig would be nice
bulworks (sp?) if possible
heavy-off shore design

The topic of boats came up during Craig's visit (surprise) and the Dana got mentioned. OK..I know they are rudely expensive but they have it all in 24 feet!!    I can't think of a smaller boat that would do better. Video here http://www.seacraft.com/newyachts/dana24.html
Thoughts????

[Kettlewell]

I always recommend 30-32 feet for a couple. That's big enough to be comfortable, small enough to be easy to handle and maintain. The 30 footer will be more comfortable offshore than the 24 and will usually be faster too. Plus, there are a lot more comfortable, seaworthy 30 footers to choose from than there are 24 footers, meaning you will be able to find one at a price you can afford.

[okawbow]

A few years ago, my wife and I re-fit a Cheoy Lee 31 ketch. We cruised for several months down the Tenn-Tom and then straight across to Key West, and up the coast,(mostly outside) to Maine. The CL31 has a 3'10" draft, looks great, 6'2" headroom, 2 settees, and is comfortable and capable offshore. Some don't like a mast in the cockpit, but my wife loved having something to grab onto when tacking or rough weather. The mizzen mast also makes a great place to hang the shower bag :D The smaller sail area of the individual sails on the ketch rig, made sail handling and balancing the rig easy.

Storage and living space were much better than our Bristol 24. Comfort motion was also much better. I never got sea sick at all on the Cheoy Lee. With my B24, I was always queasy when offshore. We averaged about 5kns under sail on offshore passages, except our 500 mile Gulf crossing, when we were becalmed 2 days. Our best 24 hours was 160 miles( gulf stream), sailing jib and mizzen. We spent some time in the ICW, and only touched bottom once, with our shallow draft.


Clarity2010 by okawbow, on Flickr

We got lots of compliments on the boat. After cruising Maine, we had to sell the boat there and return home to work. We had no trouble selling quickly for the money we had invested.

[Frank]

Kettlewell...There are more 30's than 24's for sure....and yes....most likely more comfortable at sea. But look at the Dana's specs....8000lbs for a 24 is NOT typical. I had a bad crossing aboard my Flicka 20fter on 07. I was passed by a 40 and admit to wishing for more speed but I was very safe, secure and comfortable on 20ft !  So...I respectfully dissagree. I honestly think the design and layout of the Dana would keep a couple happy.



Disclaimer: This is being pecked out by a guy that spent over 3mths aboard a ComPac 23 with my wife and 77lb Golden retreiver from the Keys across the stream and through the Abacos and back. The Dana would seem like down right luxury!!!

[Kettlewell]

The Dana is a nice boat for sure, but there are inherent advantages in waterline length for comfort, speed, and sailing ability. An 8000-lb 30 footer is going to sail better and have better motion than an 8000-lb 24 footer. But, if the Dana is the boat that fits what you want, that is all that matters.

[Travelnik]

Frank,

I don't know if you have seen this or not. It is a blog by a couple that took their Dana 24 across the Pacific, from Vancouver to New Zealand: http://karenandjimsexcellentadventure.blogspot.com/

I thought it was a good read.  :)

[Frank]

Great link!!  Thanks and "grog to ya"   ;)

[Frank]

The Dana is a nice boat for sure, but there are inherent advantages in waterline length for comfort, speed, and sailing ability. An 8000-lb 30 footer is going to sail better and have better motion than an 8000-lb 24 footer. But, if the Dana is the boat that fits what you want, that is all that matters.

I'm not saying a Dana is the only boat.....the nature of the thread is dreaming about what boat would be the smallest and still work. To me the biggest loss going small is speed. The extra 1/2 knot plus sure adds up over a long day!!!

[CharlieJ]

As I've pointed out before- the size of the people makes a HUGE difference . Me at 5'8, 165 pounds and my ex at 5'2, 110 pounds would fit nicely in  a boat that would be a shoehorn fit for a couple of 6 + footers. So that HAS to be a big part of the consideration.

Hey- Lin and Larry Pardey circumnavigated in a 24 foot boat. Of course Larry is 5'2 and Lin is 4' 10. :)


Another part of the equations is- are you going to live aboard, totally, full time? Or are you going to maintain a shore base, and keep some stuff there?  As an example, my 35 foot trimaran, with aft cabin, was very comfortable for myself, a wife and teenaged son as a full time, our only place, liveaboard.

My little 25 foot Meridian would NOT suffice as a full time home- simply not enough stowage space for 4 season clothes (and bedding) for a couple, unless we just stayed in the tropics :D I alone might be able to do it, but not a couple- just not enough room

I have friends who cruise half the year aboard a PSC 25- think no standing head room- and are delighted with it. BUT they have a place to keep the other "STUFF"

Another couple I know have lived aboard a Northsea 27 for years, and years- mainly down in  the Sea of Cortez, but now on the Gulf Coast.  It's their home, but they can shift places, since it IS highway legal- (can't call it trailerable ;))

And we won't even get into sailing speeds- offshore it's way too variable to predict. But my 17 foot 9 inch water line averages out, over the years, to about 4.5 knots. Get used to it.. More waterline? Slightly more speed. Laws of physics :D

[Grime]

Here is an article on Design Ratios. Might help you in choosing a boat.

http://www.sailmagazine.com/ratios

[Mario G]

Our Endeavour 32 with 4.2 foot draft 10 foot beam is all any couple would need. 3+ yrs aboard and we seem to have everything worked out.
The cost of operating and maintaining has been low, including sail replacement.  We have had others with bigger boats compliment the amount of stowage area we have . With everything aboard we come in around 14,000 lbs , with that in the rough conditions the cruising has been considerably comfortable. Most of all the 1st mate likes the size, I would have been happy with my 26'er.

[Kettlewell]

Having owned and cruised on a variety of boats from 17 feet to 38 feet, I think there is something that makes 30-32 feet the sweet spot for a couple. The folks we have met on boats that size always seem to be the happiest, sail the most, and seem to go the most places. With a family you need to go a bit bigger, which is why I currently have a 38 footer. We used to own a 30-foot Angus Primrose flush decker built in England and I many of her passage times are the best we have ever made because she could really sail in heavy weather. On our first sail ever on her we went 85 nautical miles in 10 hours, often pegging the 10-knot speedo we had. We found that on average, because she was such a great sailing boat, we were one of the faster boats in the cruising fleet, even including many of the 40+ footers that tended to be heavy, overladen with gear and windage, and not particularly good under sail. On the other side of the coin, she only drew 4.5 feet so we could go most places with ease, and she was inexpensive to haul and maintain. She was still big enough to allow us to carry three months of supplies when going to the Bahamas and not be overloaded. That's one huge factor in cruising capability--cargo carrying capacity. Yes displacement makes a difference, but still a 10,000 pound boat that is slightly longer will sail better and be more comfortable than a shorter boat of the same weight. That's one area where I disagree with the Pardeys. Instead of 24 feet with a huge beam, heavy weight, and a long bowsprit, go for a greater waterline length to begin with, same weight, and you would have a much more comfortable boat that would have been easier to handle too.

[Captain Smollett]

I think there is something that makes 30-32 feet the sweet spot for a couple.

I personally disagree.  Check the history of this site for many, many discussions on the merits of boats in the mid 20's for couples (and even families).

[s/v Faith]

Just to add a bit more...

I do of course realize that I am cruising on a 42' boat right now....  I can not imagine hosting half a dozen folks about Faith, so as Charlie wisely says "it depends"

 The Bahamas are not exactly a "super distant" destination.  I can count on one hand the number of sub 25' boats I have seen cruising since I got down here in November.  It has been cool to see more 25-32' boats then I have in the past... I think the message is getting out (and people can't afford the big boats like they could).  

 Most of the long term cruisers have at least 36-38' under them, and the majority have more.  That is not intended to suggest that it can not be done on less it is just far less common.

 I will sail my Ariel anywhere I ever want to go, and am very happy with her (although I am going to figure out how to shower inteh v-berth like Frank did).

 Put my vote for the OP at 25-32' (35?) with the agreement with Charlie's statement that "it depends on the couple". ....

.... With exceptions for the "exceptional" boats like the Dana.  I watched over one for a lady a few years ago.  I used to go aboard and check the bilge and crank the motor... And just sit and bask in the sheer coolness of what Pacific Seacraft did with 24'!

[CharlieJ]

 I will sail my Ariel anywhere I ever want to go, and am very happy with her (although I am going to figure out how to shower inteh v-berth like Frank did).

 Put my vote for the OP at 25-32' (35?) with the agreement with Charlie's statement that "it depends on the couple". ....

.... With exceptions for the "exceptional" boats like the Dana.  I watched over one for a lady a few years ago.  I used to go aboard and check the bilge and crank the motor... And just sit and bask in the sheer coolness of what Pacific Seacraft did with 24'!

And I'll keep my little 25. And she IS small, even smaller than the Ariel. But she's a heckuva sea boat.

BUT I'm NOT putting a shower below ;D

I don't know if I've posted this story here or not-  but here it is again anyway.

I was tied up alongside a dock somewhere in Florida when I heard a couple coming along, chatting about the boats. They came to Tehani and I heard her say "What a pretty little daysailor"

Without going on deck I said-" Yep- and she's daysailed all the way to here  from Texas"

Silence

So I poked my head out and said Hi.

Turned out to be a nice young couple, dreaming about going sailing. And until that moment had zero idea that you COULD cruise in anything under about 40 feet. See, they'd been schooled in the boating mags, who of course push what the advertisers sell. They were astonished at where I'd been.

The Tritons, Ariels, Rholdes Rangers, Meridians, etc just are not being built anymore. Not enough return on investment to tool up and build smaller boats.

And THAT'S why I talk about small boats. MAYBE I had planted a seed, and MAYBE they'll get a small cruiser and go. I hope so.

[Kettlewell]

Hey, I'm not saying you can't cruise on a 24 footer. I am a great admirer of the Pardeys, and if it was just me I would certainly consider something under 30 feet for long-range cruising. Just expressing my own opinion, having cruised as a couple on boats that were 17, 20, 26, 28, 29, 30, 32, 37, and 38 feet that in my personal experience, 30-32 feet is the sweet spot. I've even owned and lived aboard a Meridian (first boat I ever lived aboard), which convinced me that overhangs are worthless on a boat (too much pitching motion at sea and even in harbor). As has been pointed out, long-term cruising and liveaboard use makes a big difference too.

[DarrenC]

...Turned out to be a nice young couple, dreaming about going sailing. And until that moment had zero idea that you COULD cruise in anything under about 40 feet. See, they'd been schooled in the boating mags, who of course push what the advertisers sell. They were astonished at where I'd been.

This weekend I thumbed through a noncurrent Cruising World mag which was given to me (as a career sales/marketing guy I love evaluating the creativity of the advertising industry) and I was stunned at the number of manufacturers advertising these mammoth 50+ footers with a smiling couple snuggling and drinking wine while a uniformed crew takes care of the mundane efforts of actually sailing the boat.

How many people at any given time could possibly be in the market for a vessel like this?  Isn't it incredible that such a tiny fragment of the population is able to keep those manufacturers in business and in competition?  Fascinating economics...

[Captain Smollett]

a Meridian ... convinced me that overhangs are worthless on a boat

??? ??? ???

[CharlieJ]

I have a book in my library from quite a while ago called "Ocean Voyaging" by a man named David Parker, published in 1975. Amazingly, still available in places.

One of the best write ups I've read about setting up for ocean voyaging, and the boats he went through on his way to HIS "perfect" boat.. Much discussion on the whys and wherefores that led him to his end decisions


From a  29 footer, built for racing that beat him to death, to a heavy 40 footer,  he called her his "man Killer" due to maintenance, to his final, custom built boat- a 27 foot sloop with a 10 foot beam and 4000 pound displacement.

Very interesting book if you can find it

[CharlieJ]

On this vein- I recently put together a recap,  with lots of photos, on how Tehani and I came to be together, and how she was redone, in answer to a question over on Trailer Sailor (TSBB)

Link is here if anyone is interested-

http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1375897

And John- things have changed- these pics will stick