Ariel Head/Forward Cabin Layout Redo

[Jim_ME]

Was thinking about creating space for a taller composting head in a private head compartment for the Ariel 26 layout and a possible layout modification to accommodate it. (Now I recall that I think it was Charlie talking about his Meridian 25)

Shows reconfiguring the existing V-berth to a single berth on starboard side with an infill piece/cushion to convert it to a double berth (removable for access to the head compartment with hinged door).

Creating a storage space/sail bin on port side forward of the head compartment.

[CapnK]

If it a custom-built composter made to fit the space, you can likely make it work. I think that the pre-made/commercial units are not going to be happy in that space due to the hull shape. It is narrow and steep there - they'll either poke out towards center too far if sitting down near the sole, or if raised high enough to avoid "hull conflict", will be an uncomfortably high perch.

I've been planning a cabinet/stowage against the bulkhead on that side in that space, with a made-to-fit composter just forward of it, where when sitting on the throne your head (the one on your shoulders) will be a bit forward of the port, and the seat will be at a bit of an angle to centerline. Was sitting there today 'imagineering', when the thought came to me that it would be neat to have a pop-top hatch, giving one easy standing headroom at anchor, perhaps for a hot-water sun shower...

Have removed 90% of the poop up in the v-berth area, preparatory to the last of paint removal and starting to lay in the on-hull foam, prior to build out of cabinetry. Thinking that I am going to use the ex-water tank area as anchor rode stowage via twin large-diameter PVC pipes, keeping access the the very forward area (ex-anchor locker) for stowing extra sails, rodes, other light & bulky stuff, and the space on top of the ex-tank work as a "garage" that would fit my fold-up bike, origami kayak or dinghy (or here), or similar bulky items - and serve as a workbench area if needed.

[Tim]

Although it is not a composting head, I did put my MSD in the VBerth area;





And with the door on it now, it does create the privacy

[CapnK]

Tim - Are your feet dangling when you sit there?

And whats the white triangle of material on the bulkhead - reinforcement for the strongback? Splashguard? Whiteboard for meetings? :D

[Tim]

Well......I have not had an actual "occasion" to use it yet, ;) But if I remember correctly  :-\ my feet just touch when sitting  :D fortunately there is a grabrail right above it.

The white triangle just covers the wiring.

[Jim_ME]

And whats the white triangle of material on the bulkhead - reinforcement for the strongback? Splashguard? Whiteboard for meetings? :D

I'm guessing that it is a secret customs-proof cabinet where Tim keeps all his firearms, 50 cal, tripod, ammo, etc., for out there in the wild and hostile SF Bay Area and West Coast, or goes cruising down to Mexico...? (So won't expect that to be confirmed here...)  ;)

[Jim_ME]

Whiteboard for meetings? :D

LOL! That would be a perfect design...if the ideas presented won't fly, the head is right there below...handy...  :D

[Tim]

And whats the white triangle of material on the bulkhead - reinforcement for the strongback? Splashguard? Whiteboard for meetings? :D

I'm guessing that it is a secret customs-proof cabinet where Tim keeps all his firearms, 50 cal, tripod, ammo, etc., for out there in the wild and hostile SF Bay Area and West Coast, or goes cruising down to Mexico...? (So won't expect that to be confirmed here...)  ;)

JIm, you must be mistaking me for a Gulf coast sailor ;) only thing hidden around here is the "peace pipe" ;)

[Jim_ME]

JIm, you must be mistaking me for a Gulf coast sailor ;) only thing hidden around here is the "peace pipe" ;)

Maybe it was Ahhnold...and "Pump [click-click] you up!" I was thinking of...? Could easily be confused...both are way out West from here. We think of Vermont as being the West Coast (to Lake Champlain). I think they have some "Peace Pipes" up there, too.  ;)

[Tim]

JIm, you must be mistaking me for a Gulf coast sailor ;) only thing hidden around here is the "peace pipe" ;)

Maybe it was Ahhnold...and "Pump [click-click] you up!" I was thinking of...? Could easily be confused...both are way out West from here. We think of Vermont as being the West Coast (to Lake Champlain). I think they have some "Peace Pipes" up there, too.  ;)

Naw, it's Governor Moonbeam now  ;D

[Jim_ME]

Naw, it's Governor Moonbeam now  ;D

Ah...
A sunbeam to warm you
A moonbeam to charm you...

Good to see some photos of your Ariel. Those swans-neck handholds at the companionway are cool. Patty Lee should check those out.  :)

[Jim_ME]

If it a custom-built composter made to fit the space, you can likely make it work. I think that the pre-made/commercial units are not going to be happy in that space due to the hull shape. It is narrow and steep there - they'll either poke out towards center too far if sitting down near the sole, or if raised high enough to avoid "hull conflict", will be an uncomfortably high perch.

I should find some transverse sections through that area to know how much space is there. You have the advantage of having an actual Ariel there.  :)

After looking at the Ariel ads that were posted in the boats for sale thread, and admiring the design again, I began wondering about space for an enclosed head and the possibility of a double berth option for a couple.

[Jim_ME]

Kurt, from your comment about the height of a standard composting head, and the photo from Tim of his MSD, it does seem that the best location for any head is as low and toward the enclosure doorway as possible.

This doesn't leave space to use the head within the new enclosure to the port side of the forward cabin sole/berth ext area (although it could be closed up/separate from the forward cabin/berth area when not in use). I looked at creating a head extension enclosure with both a new head door (opened against the berth forward), and a door at the main bulkhead (opened against the starb side of the berth and meeting the edge of the other door). Also showing a curtain that can be drawn to screen the extended head space from the main cabin (in a case where it was also occupied). If you need no privacy from the forward cabin/berth, the main bulkhead door can be closed (into the bulkhead) to provide privacy from the main cabin.

Since Craig mentioned this, I'm thinking that these doors and curtain might serve to also make the extended head (with maybe another curtain across the port doorway to the head enclosure) usable as a basic shower under the existing hatch, where a solar heated water bag might be hung above (and show a pan with drain at the floor)?

[Capt. Tony]

It looks like you have touched on the hardest of puzzles when it comes to the amazing Ariel, how to fit it all in there.  I wound up setting up the "berth" area much the same as you have.  It still seemed a bit too tight so I actually moved the chain locker bulkhead forward a few inches and that did make all the difference for my height.  Incorporating a functional head in the same area, especially one with a shower :o, is not only difficult, it's dang near miraculous.
For the single hander, your plan looks great to me.  I can sleep that close to my poo without a thought (except for right now..)The wrinkle may be the cruising couple.  Or at least, when two are sleeping in the forward berth, and then one is sleeping and one is awake thinking, "how is this going to work?" And then the both of them have to be awake.. 
During the day it obviously wouldn't be much of an issue as that area is essentially the head in our minds.  When it comes to the Ariel, and other similarly sized boats, unless you intend to make up a berth in the main cabin, it seems to me that the only way to avoid "that situation" is to have a head that you can move into the main salon.  A composter, while a little taller than your standard head, or porta-poti. lends itself well to a semi-mobile lifestyle.  A custom made composter, like Kurt mentioned, might be the best answer for that option. 
I'll just sit back now and wait for you all to come up with the solution to one of the problems that has stopped me in my tracks. So hurry up, I'm running out of time! ;D

[Jim_ME]

I can sleep that close to my poo without a thought (except for right now..)The wrinkle may be the cruising couple.  Or at least, when two are sleeping in the forward berth, and then one is sleeping and one is awake thinking, "how is this going to work?" And then the both of them have to be awake.. 

This plan has the door in the head enclosure, so that can close it off from the forward cabin/berth(s) when not in use.

I was thinking that with a couple, the person sleeping on the inboard side of the berth could get up, remove the berth infill piece/cushion, open the doors against the berth, and use the head. If the outboard person needs to get up, then they would have to swap places in the berth first. I guess that both would have to wake up in that scenario, unless you could scoot your partner over without (at least fully) waking them?

I wound up setting up the "berth" area much the same as you have.  It still seemed a bit too tight so I actually moved the chain locker bulkhead forward a few inches and that did make all the difference for my height. 

Yes, Alberg seems to favor large chain lockers, and may locate the locker bulkhead so that the bottom of it is at the forward end of the waterline, perhaps to reinforce the hull at the spot that something floating would impact the hull.

[CharlieJ]

Maybe I'm just weird, but I REALLY don't see the hang up on the head.

In the first place, If I had doors on a small boat, like an Ariel or Triton , I'd yank 'em out and hang a curtain. Doors are a  PITA anyway, even on larger boats. Even on my 35 foot tri, we used just a curtain.

And two of us lived aboard, and cruised Tehani for over two years, with a head under the Vee. Never a problem. Never had to use it during the night, so no big deal

The only pic I have of the head set up is this one, with the panel folded up for access. When I made the bed, that folded down and an insert went in to fill up the space.

For privacy, we'd hang a towel across the  opening or just go up top while the other used the facility. Hey- it usually only gets used once a day! Seems simple enough to me.

Edited-

Ok- did find a pic of the space with the panel closed. The insert sits on the wood cleats each side when used to make the full bed. The potty resides behind the curtain.

And I would never even DREAM of putting a shower below decks on a boat this size. No way, no how. Even on my tri I didn't have one. Three of us lived on that boat for three years. Either shower in the cockpit with a pump up spray shower, or take a sponge bath inside. Showers are NOT worth the trouble.

[Jim_ME]

Charlie, Nope, You're not weird.

This all started with the idea of putting a taller composting head off to the side, since it may be too tall to fit under the V-berth.

Once you do that, you lose the V-berth on that side, so the infill piece up to the bulkhead is of course to be able to make the berth into a double for a couple.

So then was looking at putting the head into an enclosure, so that you can close it off from the forward cabin/berths when not in use.

Then the idea of making that an enclosed head that could be used by guests or other family members that might be sleeping in the main cabin. (The boat does have 4 berths)

Being able to sleep the night without having to use the head makes it simple, but I also understand that not everyone can do that, as Tony may have been suggesting.

I had doors on several boats and never minded them. Offer a bit more privacy than a curtain, if you have guests, or a family using both cabins.

I have read about some people that absolutely insist on having a shower below. Craig had mentioned having one below, too. Maybe he was kidding and it went over my head...? Wouldn't be the first time  :) I would hate to think that people would feel that they had to move up in size to a 30 footer, if everything else on an Ariel was to their liking, if they were adamant about the shower? Seems like if you can find the physical space (and as you often say, there is a bit more in an Ariel than Tehani), then it should be possible to build a shower something like the larger boats have.

I think that I'm with you, Charlie, and would spray shower in the cockpit, get some lee cloths for the lifelines around it...suspend a curtain on a frame from the boom if I had to. No doubt that it is the KISSiest thing to do.

Was just thinking about what may be possible in an Ariel (since I may now have to get one).  :D

Edit: Nice photographs. Tehani is beautiful in her simplicity!  :)

[CharlieJ]

Well, the only time I might have to get up middle of the night for is to Pee, and that very seldom. And I sure don't use the potty for that. Nor did anyone else aboard. Coffee can in the cockpit.

And yes, that's the big reason there's no composter onboard- just no room. So I have zero experience with them.

Lst year, when I did the BEER Cruise in Pensacola aboard my 21 footer, I tried Wag Bags. They stink after a day or so. Properly maintained porta pottis (and composters I gather) do not.

But she IS plumbed for pump out, and in coastal cruising, I found that to be very much simpler than a porta-potti that needed dumping. Much less hassle also. Primarily because the places  set up to dump are so few and far between(I can, offhand, think of only 4 places between Texas and Annapolis Maryland) ,and you get to be made feel like a criminal in using bathroom toilets. In many places we had to sneak it in in a canvas bag. Many marinas have signs up forbidding dumping.

Of course you CAN go offshore and legally dump. Three miles on the east coast, NINE miles on Florida's west coast-long way out and back!!


I have a Dometic 5 gallon MSD, and with two aboard we had to pump roughly every 7-8 days. With just me- 15 days. The problem that arises though is that, for example, in the Bahamas there ARE no dump stations so you better be able to pump it your self. Which is pretty sad since what they have to sell is the clean water.

And on the shower. Most folks I know on small boats who do have showers below, use the space for stowage, NOT showering. Causes to much problems from mold and mildew. And rot. Ask Grime- he just had to replace ALL the bulkheading around the head on his boat, from a shower.

Most tried at first, and gave it up as a bad idea. Just makes too big a mess. A  dishpan full of hot water and a wash rags works quite well. Or baby wipes for a few days, then a bath.

Remember- as Smollet keeps saying- it's NOT a house

Oh, and thanks for the compliment on Tehani- Worked hard on her and I love the boat.

[CapnK]

Here's my plan. Push aft bulkhead back about 18" (aligned w/forward edge of cockpit locker hatches) creating a large athwartships double mostly under bridgedeck/cockpit for in-port use. Companionway ladder (retractable) drops down to forward edge of that bunk. Either side of that, small "U" extensions create seating positions but also allow for one to stretch out along low side of hull under sail (sea berth). Entire area has stowage underneath.

Forward of that, Green areas are galley (Engel to port, stove/oven/sink to strbd) and stowage up to counter top height. Head (composting, custom made) is Orange, tucked as far forward on the sole as possible, just aft of original water tank after bulkhead, sitting just off of centerline & turned slightly.

Under a hump just behind main bulkhead on top of sole are twin 12V house batteries. Water stowage will most likely be several bladders of 5-10g each, ideally stowable just fore and aft of main bulkhead against hull & down low.

[Tim]

Charlie, does your MSD have a vent?