Ariel Head/Forward Cabin Layout Redo

[CharlieJ]

Charlie, does your MSD have a vent?

Absolutely.

Comes out the side of the hull just under the toe rail.

It's the round object just forward of the chain plates in this pic

[sharkbait]

I went back and forth on the subject and ended up keeping  a bucket in in the port cockpit locker.It was really quite simple I was
the one who was making it complicated

[DarrenC]

she IS plumbed for pump out, and in coastal cruising, I found that to be very much simpler than a porta-potti that needed dumping. Much less hassle also. Primarily because the places  set up to dump are so few and far between(I can, offhand, think of only 4 places between Texas and Annapolis Maryland) ,and you get to be made feel like a criminal in using bathroom toilets. In many places we had to sneak it in in a canvas bag. Many marinas have signs up forbidding dumping.

As an added wrinkle, here in Ontario a permanently mounted head with holding tank and deck fitting pump out is the only legal form of marine toilet, and without one a vessel loses its status as legally being able to have booze aboard.

[Capt. Tony]

As an added wrinkle, here in Ontario a permanently mounted head with holding tank and deck fitting pump out is the only legal form of marine toilet, and without one a vessel loses its status as legally being able to have booze aboard.

...that's just barbarian...it promotes lawlessness!

[Jim_ME]

Push aft bulkhead back about 18" (aligned w/forward edge of cockpit locker hatches) creating a large athwart-ships double mostly under bridgedeck/cockpit for in-port use.

Kurt, Years ago I spent fair amount of time on a 30 footer with an athwartship berth in the aft cabin. I found that when the boat rolled, say at anchor when another boat passed and left even a small wake, that I really felt that quick motion.

I wonder whether anyone has tried a layout like the one below, with a large quarter (possibly double) berth, a dinette, with seat to starboard (and temp table ext to it), and more space for galley in the starb aft cabin area?

[CharlieJ]

The big problem with a dinette in a small boat like an Ariel, or Tehani, is that the hull curves in so close to the outboard seat that a a full sized person has no room for feet.

Pretty much makes the dinette a two person arrangement, in any comfort.

[CapnK]

I really haven't noticed any extra motion sleeping athwartships in the past couple of years. May be due to that I am still in a beamy part of the boat, basically just aft of the widepoint.

I did try a couple different dinette setups like you illustrate, both with head and shoulders below deck level (seat at original berth height) and also high up enough to look out of the ports (seat raised 14" IIRC). Sitting low, there is not much flat foot space (on edit: see CJ's response above), and up high, not much shoulder room. And to have a table/foot space decently wide enough for two, you'll need to remove the port cabinets at the main bulkhead.

I think that in my 8 years aboard I have exhausted the possible layout permutations. ;D

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Today I have completely cleaned out the bilge, pulled the pump, and am getting ready to somehow block off the cockpit drain thru-hulls (which are fiberglass tubes bonded to the hull at construction) so I can go ahead and begin the cockpit footwell modification.

I am somewhat at a loss as to how best do this, what with the boat in the water... ;D

So far my best idea is: I have a can of red Great Stuff expanding foam; I think I am going to get appropriately sized PVC end caps, have the drain tubes ready to pull, shoot the cap full of foam, pull tube and slap the cap on, then hold the cap there while the foam expands down into the thru-hull and sets. If that works to seal the thru-hull 90% (or more, hopefully) from leaking, then I am going to glass the caps right to the remaining thru-hull base so that there is no way that they can come off until I get in the yard and grind them off prior to patching the hull.

Alternatives already considered:

1 - Drill small hole into thru-hull from side, pull drill bit and replace with foam tube, shoot foam. Drawback: foam may just expand out into the river, not really blocking thru-hull.

2 - Pull tube, push sponge or rag into thru-hull until a couple of inches are open, foam into that space. Drawback: I imagine that sponge/rag will leak, and foam may not get a good bond onto thru-hull interior.

3 - Similar to 2, but use a bag or rubber glove, pull tube and "cap" thru-hull with bag/glove. Then, shove it backwards down into thru-hull with foam tube, and shoot foam. Drawback: no direct-to-thru-hull contact by foam. Could then do the cap idea, though...

Thoughts?

[Jim_ME]

I am somewhat at a loss as to how best do this, what with the boat in the water... ;D
Thoughts?

Could you snorkel dive and drive tapered wooden plugs into the drain through-hulls from the outside (to keep water from entering until you can install caps inside)?

[CapnK]

That is an option, probably the easiest, but I am trying to do it dry. :) River is in the low 60's (maybe, possibly lower), and I don't have tapered plugs.

[Jim_ME]

I'm thinking that you might be able to make some crude tapered plugs by putting a belt sander or grinder in a vise and turning a stick against it to shape it to a taper, then cutting the plug off?

Can't help much with the water temp...that's warmish for up here.  :D

[Jim_ME]

I was looking at the dinette in the Westerly Cirrus 22 (3300 lbs) (see photos below) which seems like a generous two-person size, or also with one or two that are short enough to sit outboard under the deck (say a couple with children).

One photo shows the aft dinette seat as part of a good-sized quarter berth. The dinette is raised a step, which helps get the dinette and seats farther away from the narrower turn to the bilge. But the Cirrus, even though only 60% the displacement of the Ariel, has a taller hull. 

Even the strictly 2-person dinette in the C-Dory 22 p*werboat (I looked at photos of the boat after Frank posted about it in another thread), seemed like a cool feature in a small boat. Especially if there was another settee (even though not a berth) opposite, and the table could occasionally be extended to accommodate them.

[Travelnik]

I'm just wondering if the foam will even stick.

Doesn't that stuff need to be applied to a dry surface? If the thru-hulls are wet, or have a slime film on them, it may not work at all.

Maybe just stuff a cloth or something in there to slow the water flow, and cap it quick, possibly with some waterproof epoxy in the cap?

[CapnK]

Just 'found' some white extruded polystyrene foam in my shed of appropriate thickness to make plugs. Going to try pulling the tubes, shoving in a tight-fitting foam plug, and then use some quick-set waterproof epoxy on top of the plug to seal it from leaking, prior to a more permanent sealing with cloth and resin.

What could go wrong? ;D

Edit: Sounds about the same as what you suggest, Travelnik. I had not thought about slime inside the thru-hulls, and I can almost guarantee you that there is some there. Good call. :)

[Jim_ME]

Here are the C-Dory dinette photos...

Having a table that's always setup (to keep a chart, etc. on) and off to the side, out of the cabin corridor, just seems like a nice feature. If it can be raised so that you can look out the portlights at the view, or dragging boats in an anchorage...even better.  :)

[CapnK]

The Cirrus has a much narrower side deck than the Ariel, and the C-dory none at all. Those Ariel side decks are nice for going forward, but are what kick the dinette in the pants, so to speak. :)

[Jim_ME]

Many Westerly boats do have super-sized cabin trunks.

Although the photo that you posted is used on the sailboatdata website, I don't think that is a Westerly Cirrus 22, but is a Westerly Warwick or Westerly 22 21, which has a larger trunk and narrower side decks.

Here are some pics of an actual Cirrus 22 (which has a smaller trunk/wider decks)...

[Travelnik]

The Westerly 22, and the Nomad don't have side decks, and it makes the interior volume feel huge!  ;D
Not having side decks is less practical for going forward, but I'm laying mine out to have most everything except the anchor done from the cockpit.

I thought about putting a dinette in, but I would lose the storage area under the quarter berth if I did. It's still a possibility though.

[CapnK]

Jim, yes, those Cirrus side decks are much closer to Ariel-ness... :)

And BTW, I don't mean to be a idea poo-pooing, cotton-headed ninnymuggins only full of negativity about the ideas you are bringing up - just trying to relate what I found out trying my ideas (to which yours are very similar) over the past several years, and what the result *I* had was, perhaps with some background commentary. :)

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So here's what I am going to try: Going to coat the outside of the foam plugs with a layer of Gorilla Glue, pull tubes, give thru-hulls a quick ream with a bottle brush, shove plugs in, top off with epoxy stick, then glass & resin later. I did some experiments a few years ago with GG, it expands into a foam when in contact with water and hardens quickly/faster - should give me just the result I want.

In fact, I harbor a suspicion that GG and Great Stuff foam are much the same thing; they are both polyurethanes, and in my experiments I found that mixing GG 1:1 or more with water makes a foam that looks very similar to Great Stuff. Hmmm... :)

[Jim_ME]

just trying to relate what I found out trying my ideas (to which yours are very similar) over the past several years, and what the result *I* had was, perhaps with some background commentary. :)

What I haven't shared is that, although I had been kidding about now having to get an Ariel, that one had recently been posted that was not far away and fairly cheap. I did contact the seller, and was giving some serious thought to whether I should try to get it. So I have been thinking about the Ariel more detailed way than before, and what kinds of things might be done with the layout, if I should want some of the features that many seem to like: separate taller composting head, double shared berth, maybe a dinette, etc.

Absolutely, You know the Ariel, like Charlie knows a Meridian, as only one who has owned and worked on one would. I'm happy to sketch up design ideas and put them out there for any consideration or discussion that it may spark, but am not attached to any particular one or outcome, and wish you, Darren, and anyone who is contemplating or modifications all the best for whatever you choose.

[Jim_ME]

As an added wrinkle, here in Ontario a permanently mounted head with holding tank and deck fitting pump out is the only legal form of marine toilet, and without one a vessel loses its status as legally being able to have booze aboard.

Well they sure know how to make it a high-stakes situation...it may just be things like this that led to that dreaded expression "...in the worst-case Ontario"...[we could lose our booze]   :D

I remember talking to a very experienced sailor boatbuilder friend 20 years ago in way DownEast Maine, about options for a "legal" head. One was the option for the locking Y-valve and the very small holding tank.

I remember what he said...

"You put that in and you'll be legal, but whatever you do...never ever actually use it."

If was a place of few people, twenty-foot tides, and my mooring was surrounded by massive fish pens with many thousand of salmon feeding and pooping into the water. Those big tides twice daily and currents of several knots in areas gives you a lot of water flushing action.