life...and cruising...need not be complicated

[Frank]

Yes there are issues....yes problems come up. Thats life. Yep...the smaller-simpler the easier less stressful....the more time to simply "be". I always revel at seeing old farts (me incl) bombing around on lil dingy's, climbing up docks, grinning like Huck Finn and having a blast!!! Done right...cruising brings out the little boy-girl in all of us!!

[Chris]

I'm with you Frank!! >: :D

[CharlieJ]

Marina stays??? Sure, I have a few. Thinking back to my previous live aboard time, on my 35 foot trimaran. That boat went for a full year without ever touching a dock. All supplies, all water, all fuel and us all the time, went back and forth in a dinghy.

And three of us cruised for close to 2 years on $7500

Nowadays, I pick up a mooring when I can, when traveling. It's convenient. And usually not THAT expensive. But again, seldom am I on a dock 

[rorik]

....the more time to simply "be". I always revel at seeing old farts (me incl) bombing around on lil dingy's, climbing up docks, grinning like Huck Finn and having a blast!!! Done right...cruising brings out the little boy-girl in all of us!!

Thaaaaaaaat's why my girlfriend keeps telling me I'm six....  ;D

[CharlieJ]

Yes there are issues....yes problems come up. Thats life. Yep...the smaller-simpler the easier less stressful....the more time to simply "be". I always revel at seeing old farts (me incl) bombing around on lil dingy's, climbing up docks, grinning like Huck Finn and having a blast!!! Done right...cruising brings out the little boy-girl in all of us!!

;)  ;)  :)

[Kettlewell]

Lots of random thoughts on this. Part of the problem is the gradual erosion of family cruising, for a multitude of reasons. A kid that starts out on and around boats is much more likely to be doing it later in life when he/she can afford to go cruising. They will have the skills and comfort-level around the water that is needed. As we have discussed in some other threads, today's cruising couple typically starts later in life with lots more money and more expectations. They have no knowledge of marine stuff, and they logically try to recreate their land life on a boat, which makes things complicated and expensive. I remember a long time ago talking to a dissatisfied cruiser who was complaining that she missed her morning newspaper everyday--that was before smart phones, etc., but I think the point is that after a lifetime of something people do develop habits that are very hard to break. I know other people who go to great lengths in order to have infinite fresh water supplies, infinite hot water onboard, and all the complication and expense that go along with it. They can't fathom an existence where these things aren't a turn of the tap away because they have never known any other thing. I've noticed that people who start cruising after having done a lot of other outdoor stuff, like hiking, backpacking, camping, kayaking, etc., often enjoy cruising more. Even a tiny cruising sailboat is luxury compared to a backpacking tent in the wilderness.

[Kettlewell]

Two other points. A lot of people are scared of a lot of things. The first questions I always get asked are about storms and pirates. Two, maintenance costs, hassles, and drudgery are the reason many couples drop out of cruising. I see it time and again. Most people would be happier in the long run with a simpler boat that was easier to maintain and cost less to run. I've run into guys running big motor yachts who were complaining about the cost of fuel and maintenance, and they were obviously worth millions. The more you have to spend the more you will spend.

[DarrenC]

I think theres more of the ultra-simplicity cruisers out there than we realize. We dont hear about them because they dont make a point of needing to be recognized.

A former boss and great friend who spent the past winter cruising the south on a diesel trawler says he ran into a wonderful group in the dry tortugas cruising in little homemade plywood sailboats without so much as a house battery. AA powered handhelds were the order of the day. They had been out for almost a year, rarely took the dock, stuck together for companionship and safety and were living the life of Reilly.  An old timer at my marina says that over a decade ago he ran into a family from British Columbia in the Marquesas cruising on a 30 footer they built themselves from trees on their own property and completing a circumnavigation using a lead line, log, sextant and working out the math with a pencil and paper.  Talk about self sufficient!  These are the type of adventurers who could write a book i would gratefully buy and read every word a hundred times, yet almost by definition these are the folks who have mastered simplicity to the point they have no interest in promoting themselves. They want for nothing and derive maximum experience out of every second. To my thinking there is nothing more admirable than that.

[Captain Smollett]

Well said, Darren.  Grog to you.

I think theres more of the ultra-simplicity cruisers out there than we realize. We dont hear about them because they dont make a point of needing to be recognized.

That may well be true, but in that is part of the problem.

The squeaky, noisy wheel gets the attention.  The 'big boat is better' and the 'you've GOT to have GPS | other' message is out there...loudly and often.  I've had people whose boats NEVER left the dock tell me I HAD to have roller furling because it makes sailing easier and more convenient.

(Not bashing furling itself...I'm bashing the attitude that it is necessary).

It takes some work to uncover the "simpler" message.  And that is what I've been saying for a while now...that the disparity in how these two messages is available is part of a dream killing process.

I get the simpler lifestyle folks are just doing their thing...quietly and nondescript.  But, it's also a bit unfortunate in that dreamers miss that option as being viable unless they specifically look for it for some reason.

I sense I'm dancing around the point and having trouble stating it.  One message is more "popular" than the other, not because it really is more popular, but just because it is repeated more.  Something like that...and that makes it LOOK like it is more popular, or worse...more RIGHT, more CORRECT.

There's more than one way to cruise by sailboat.   But you might not know that from reading the rags and the more "popular" blogs and forums.

[DarrenC]

SO true about media and the "popular" opinion!  The clubhouse at my marina has a little lending library including a stack of donated magazines, and the other day i picked up a copy of Yacht World or Cruising World or Pretentious World or something like that because one of the features listed on the cover caught my interest - "Five Affordable Sailboats to take you to the Bahamas"

When i reached the article I didnt know whether to laugh out loud or cry.  The subtext was that if you were "only" crossing the gulfstream it could "safely" and "reasonably" be done in a boat under 40' and less than $100K as long as you chose "carefully". The five contenders they came up with ranged from the "meager" Islander 36 to the "best value" Beanteau 393.  Scary to think how many people must read poop like that and never think about cruising as a viable option again.

[jotruk]

I have a guy at the sail club I belong to that has stated many times that the size boats that we sail on the lake here are just to small to take to the islands. I have asked him several times why that was and he can't give me a good answer other than they are just to small. He pointed out that my hunter was a cheaply make boat and that it could not stand up to the rigours of off shore sailing. According to him a 38 footer is the minimal size that you need to take off shore. He has sailed the Bahamas and else where and all of it done in a 50 footer that he owned.  He has told me several times that he worst part of sailing the 50 was finding crew. That just don't sound like fun to me. I want to know that I made the trip on my own ability.

[Captain Smollett]

Scary to think how many people must read poop like that and never think about cruising as a viable option again.

As I've mentioned here a number of times, that was very nearly me in the mid-90's.  I read SAIL and occasionally CRUISING WORLD.  Those magazines has me convinced my wife and I needed a 45 footer.

So, I began looking at prices of 45 footers.  And, the cost of maintenance.

And then very nearly gave up the idea of EVER 'cruising' on a sailboat.

I have a guy at the sail club I belong to that has stated many times that the size boats that we sail on the lake here are just to small to take to the islands. I have asked him several times why that was and he can't give me a good answer other than they are just to small.

You know what?  I would LOVE for someone like this to join sailfar and 'engage in dialog' on this topic.  I don't mean to have them here to berate them, but to see how they defend that idea in the face of overwhelming evidence that what they believe is simply not true.

Now, if he just prefers a larger boat, that's his business.  But to repeat this Geezer Science notion that smaller boats are, on that basis alone, deficient for "offshore" or going to the islands or whatever, as fact is rather weak.

Geezer Science is one of my new favorite terms.  For anyone not familiar, it means "I am going to repeat what I heard, and it must be true because I heard it and I believe it."

I've seen people defend some of most ridiculous ideas on this basis alone. Bigger = better, with no other considerations, when it comes to boats certainly qualifies.

[DarrenC]

One of the factors that i believe may accompany the geezer science is that an individual who has already drunk the kool aid and is now way over their head in a too big/complicated /expensive boat feels compelled to ignore the evidence and perpetuate the myth because they are embarassed they ever got taken in to begin with.

On a much smaller scale I did this myself recently. It took me almost a year to shake off the insanity of those stupid single serve keurig coffee pods even tbough from the very beginning it was obvious that i was paying ten times the price for substandard product, yet I kept it up because I felt i had to justify the original poor decision of paying a hundred bucks for a coffee maker to begin with.  Talk about good money after bad!

[DarrenC]

He pointed out that my hunter was a cheaply make boat and that it could not stand up to the rigours of off shore sailing. .

This is the elitist poop i truly cannot stand. Every time a manufacturer has any popularity and produces in any kind of numbers you start hearing this - once again usually from a-holes who never leave the dock, or even more unbelievably people who don't have a boat at all. When i was doing a lot of power cruising with my folks 25 years ago i cant tell you how many times i heard the same regurgitated bile spewed out against our Bayliner(s). My Dad always took it in stride, simply pointing out to me that we were the ones putting a thousand miles under our hull every season, so we know what we know from first hand experience and what others think is of no consequence. Good advice for a lot of things in life i think...

[Travelnik]

Whenever I hear/read someone talking about how big a boat needs to be to go to the Bahamas, I usually refer them to Dave and Mindy Bolduc's site: microcruising.com.

Those guys take off for months at a time to the Bahamas in a 15' plywood boat designed by Matt Layden.

My 22' Nomad was originally sailed across the Atlantic to the Caribbean in the late 70s/early 80s by her first owner. He sailed around the Caribbean and Gulf or Mexico for a few years before selling the boat in Houston.

Big boaters don't like to hear that kind of thing, and they will usually bring up their rhetoric about bigger=faster=safer. Then they will be the first to complain when a speed boat passes them at 40 knots, and douses them with a 30' rooster tail! I thought they just said faster was safer?

They make me laugh when they start talking about 8-10 knots being fast! I ride a bicycle somewhere around 20 mph, and that isn't considered fast by anyone on the roads!
When we slow down for school zones, we're creeping along faster than their 8-10 knot fast big boat!

Well, I get a laugh out of them anyway!  ;D

I always thought that sailing was its own destination, so why hurry?

[CharlieJ]

Aw man- they went big boat!! Used to cruise the Bahamas in Little cruiser- at 14 feet ;D

Actually, Paradox is 13 foot 10 inches. My Texas200 crew in 2012 built one (she's in Key West now) A guy from Lake Havasu biought the boat and sailed her in the Texas 200 this year. Quite a capable boat

Links to a couple of videos of her in the 200

Day 3-

http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1384538

Day 4-

http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1384880

And one more that is a gathering of parts of his videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2FqS5u0WXk&feature=youtu.be

Here's the Paradox (Scout) and my Traveler sitting side by side the last night out at Army Hole

[Travelnik]

Okay, big boat <rant mode again>:

On one of the Cruising Forums (which shall remain nameless) that caters to mostly big boaters, has a posting by a guy with a 40'+ boat needing advice on an emergency ladder because his transom ladder cannot be accessed with the dinghy in its davits.

He had a reply to his post suggesting a $500 emergency ladder, and several posts suggesting making something with ropes, knots and loops.

The OP said that $500 was way too high, and I posted a comment suggesting that his priorities may be off a bit if he can afford a big 40'+ boat, but not $500 to save his life, or the lives of his loved ones.

That invoked his immediate ire, and he put me on his ignore list (as if I care).

But, I seriously don't get it. These people will spend many (some times hundreds of) thousands on a boat, EPIRB, life boats, PLBs, electronic navigation, A/C, etc., but a $500 ladder to save a life is too much?

Well, how much is a human life worth then?

</rant off>

[Frank]

rant away.....  ;D

[Captain Smollett]

Travelnik,  I understand your frustration with the 'big boat attitude' on some forums.

Recently, I saw a thread on one forum where someone asked about anchoring long term (and leaving the boat unattended from a few days to a couple of weeks).  As one who has anchored his boat long term (18 months) including leaving her unattended (for five months), the responses stunned me.

Nearly all the "advice" was to NEVER do this.  "It's just not worth it," they claimed.  "Too much can happen," they cried.  Never mind the specific anchorage they were talking about has dozens of boats in it, and some are indeed left long term.

But, the prize comment, the one that really saddened me, was the one that said it was

"Bad seamanship IMHO to leave a boat unattended at anchor."

I very nearly took the bait and was sorely tempted to compose a scathing reply.  The Pardeys did it; Hiscock did it.  Many others do it all the time.  I did it.

My response, emotionally composed, would have included something like "Perhaps the real lack of seamanship is one who cannot skillfully and confidently anchor their boat, and because of their OWN weakness sees fit to put down those that do."

But, in the end, I decided to let it go.  Anything I would say would fall on blind eyes.  I decided to let it go and turn my eye to the weather and chart planning of MY next trip....a trip that will involve some tricky navigation.  I'd rather be sailing, or even planning my next sail, than online forum sparring with the type of person that gives advice like that.

Don't know what kind of boat he has, but it was a "favors big boats" kind of forum.  He did get called out on that comment a small handful of folks.  Of course, some of the folks that called him out got criticized...weird thread indeed.  One person said they could NEVER leave their boat overnight at anchor.  Just stunning...and sad.  Running theme was "if you have to leave the boat, that's what marinas are for."

I found that thread by accident.  Reading it reinforced why sailfar.net is the ONLY sailing forum I read and participate in.

[w00dy]

Don't know what kind of boat he has, but it was a "favors big boats" kind of forum.  He did get called out on that comment a small handful of folks.  Of course, some of the folks that called him out got criticized...weird thread indeed.  One person said they could NEVER leave their boat overnight at anchor.  Just stunning...and sad.  Running theme was "if you have to leave the boat, that's what marinas are for."

Run away and don't look back  ;)