Advice on learning sail

[hopefulsailor]

Hello,
I posted in the introduction page and I thought I would post some questions here. I have never sailed before and never owned a boat, but I am in the market for a boat right now. I am thinking a Cape Dory 25D will be about right for a single guy, such as me, and I think I will be able to fit everything I need on it also.

Does anyone here have a Cape Dory 25D? What are your thoughts as far as ease of use and maintenance? Also, I need to learn how to sail a boat. Is that something that you can learn as you go? Or should I really consider taking a class or two?

[Captain Smollett]

Also, I need to learn how to sail a boat. Is that something that you can learn as you go? Or should I really consider taking a class or two?

Both methods of learning to sail can work.  It is kind of an individual thing.

As a person who tries to learn everything on his own (from reading and the like) without "formal" instruction, I will say this.  Sailing is one of those things that you CAN do it that way, but your 'learning curve" will take a lot longer to climb.

I took a one-day lesson with an instructor that was very willing to work with me at what I wanted my lesson to be.  I had read books for years and even built models of sails and masts and used a fan to make home study of sail trim and tacking and the like.  I thought I understood it pretty well, but lacked "confidence" that I could really do it on my own...I sensed gaps in my ability to apply the knowledge I had gained from books.

So, I told my instructor, "Hey, I think I know how to do it, and I want to try."  He worked with me and gave pointers and answered questions.  It was a crutch having him there, but a very welcome one.  I learned a LOT from him .... stuff I may have learned eventually on my own but got in that one, first day on the water.

I left the experience glad I did it.

I hear from folks that have taken lessons that they have been worth it to them as well.  Is is necessary?  Probably not. But it sure speeds up the process.

I like to tell first time sailors when I take them out on the water that I can teach you the basics in a day.  Then you spend the rest of your life getting better.  It's not hard to learn and to figure out (even on your own), but it is "hard" (not really, but for a lack of a better word) to perfect.

I hope that makes sense.

Consider that when we teach young folks, say 7 year olds, some take well to lessons and 'formal instruction.'  Some apply those lessons pretty well on the water with active coaching.  Others...we put in a boat, put off to the side, out of the way, and let them "figure it out."  And, they do.  They work it out...they try this and that and finds what works and what doesn't, and it does not usually take them a full lesson time to do it.

I remember one girl (about 9 or so) that had been in that program for over a year, and she lacked confidence sailing on her own.  It became clear to me pretty quick that her skill exceeded her confidence in her skill, and for whatever reason she was not getting that.  There were days she would return to the dock in the coach boat in tears.

One day when I was "lead," I pretty much let her (and all of them, actually) "just go."  I told the group to 'just go sailing.'  We did not practice specific drills that day.  She had a blast and was laughing, and was racing with the others and going here and there.  When she came in, she was gleeful and begged to "go back out."

Her Mom, a sailor, was there, and said that was the first time she ever begged to go back out sailing.  She thanked me profusely, and I replied that I did not do anything.  I just 'let' her sail...I let her figure out whatever it was she was missing...she found it, and sailing became a joy for her.

So, she was an example of a new sailor that "lessons" were NOT helping...she had been actively coached for more than 30 hours and was not 'improving.'  Just getting on the water and having some unstructured fun was the best lesson she could have.

(Aside: I heard a few weeks ago that that family was getting ready to leave to go extended cruising, may a circumnavigation).

I had others, too, that did not respond to "lessons" but did to 'just working it out.'  So, you kind of have to answer this for yourself.  I would definitely lean toward taking a lesson, though...you can always "work it out" from that springboard.

One great way to get "lessons" is to crew aboard a boat with an experienced sailor.  My caution here is, though, is to be careful who you do this with.  Well, that's true with taking formal lessons anyway.  But crewing can be a GREAT way to learn and have fun in the process.

[Captain Smollett]

Sorry for the double post, but wanted to hit this point, too.

I think I will be able to fit everything I need on it also.

You would be absolutely amazed at the amount of stuff you can fit on a 25 ft boat.  It boils down to how it is stored and of course how you (personally) define "need."

Boats get filled with stuff...they accumulate 'junk' and it makes them SEEM like they don't have enough room for 'need.'  I've completely emptied a couple of boats...an 18 footer and a 30 footer, and it is truly amazing.

I could live on the 18 footer by myself...easily.  There's more than enough room for stuff.

[hopefulsailor]

Thanks for the reply. A lot of good information, that answers a bunch of my questions and confirms, for me, small and simple is the way to go. So, I will continue to looking at boats in the 25' to 27' range. I will also sign up for a Basic Keel and Coastal Navigation class.
My personal whole idea behind this project is single handing my boat and only using the minimal equipment necessary to accomplish what I set out to do. I literally want and plan to live out of a bag. I have done this several times in the past and made it work. I kinda have the idea in my head that I want to have this voyage to be a indefinite camp out with an occasional hotel thrown in for comfort and sanity. I'm dreaming of eating fish tacos and drinking a lemonade on a deserted beach somewhere and having the freedom to go and do whatever I want. I don't know how realistic that is, but I guess I am going to find out.       

[Frank]

it IS very realistic! Dreams DO come true.....

[hopefulsailor]

This is great! You guys are making want to drop everything I am doing, throw some clothes in a bag, and take off! Unfortunately, I have 3 more weeks on a install job left. Then, I'm dropping everything, throwing some clothes in a bag, and taking off!
Also, I wanted to ask. What about tools? I see youtube videos of guys working on boats in boatyards, do they bring their own tools or does the boatyard rent them out?
This is for the Cape Dory 25D owners or anyone else who knows. How big of a dingy can I fit on there? The one I was looking at was a 6'6" sailing one.

[Cyric30]

Hello Hopefulsailor
i am not in any position to give advice as, i am as much a new guy as you, but ive seen many ppl use inflatables for there dinks on sub-32' boats, its another option to think about.

[jpfx]

I've lurked here for years but I'm not a sailor by any means, just someone with a sailboat.
I would like to add to this discussion my own thoughts on learning to sail and what use instruction can be. by no means is this anything more than my opinion on this subject from a similar vantage point.
I've scared myself s**tless on my boat at 5 miles an hour. it's not that difficult to get out of your depth/comfort zone. I think instruction is best aimed at assisting you in broadening your limits without terrifying yourself in the process.
the boat will always be able to take on more than you... more wind, more chop, etc. if you deal with these things alone then you might never gain the confidence in your boat and your actions under given circumstances (like a gust laying your further over than you think possible). an instructor or experienced hand in the boat should get you past these things and tell you the right way to do things when you would otherwise be unsure you made the correct move.
for me the bigger the boat, the more the trepidation from 'getting it wrong' and the graver the consequences.
having said that, get out as much as possible. being familiar with your boat before you take instruction will hopefully allow you to concentrate on what experience can teach you.

[CharlieJ]

Also, I wanted to ask. What about tools? I see youtube videos of guys working on boats in boatyards, do they bring their own tools or does the boatyard rent them out?
This is for the Cape Dory 25D owners or anyone else who knows. How big of a dingy can I fit on there? The one I was looking at was a 6'6" sailing one.

On tools. I carried a limited number myself. I'm sort of a wood worker, so had a  few of those tools aboard. Hand drill ( egg beater type), variety of bits. Small block plane, rasps, two chisels. Soldering iron. Each boat will be different, and require different tools. ALL tools fit into one of the plastic ammo style boxes

I carry mechanic tools for any nuts, bolts, etc on the boat. I have tried to standardize fasteners to just  a few in threaded sizes. I carry taps and dies for 3/8-18, 1/4-20, 10-32 and 10-24. And a good assortment of those machine screws, plus a goodly assortment of sheet metal types, all in compartmented plastic boxes. Try not to go overboard  ;) Likewise extra bulbs, fuses, crimp fittings, etc. All in another plastic compartmented box

Sewing stuff for sails and canvas- one of the hand stitching awls, and a variety of threads. Sail needles, sewing palm.

I carry spares for major items- spark plugs, rebuild kits for the three pumps aboard, extra fuel and water filters, etc. One very good suggestion when buying spares- put the new one on THEN and store the old as a spare- then you KNOW it fits.

On the dinghy- Tehani is far too small up forward to stow a dinghy aboard, so I tow it. I've towed my original 6'6" pram dink on several round trips from Texas to Florida and return. Then I got a 7'6" inflatable, and towed that several thousand miles-Two partial Gulf of Mexico crossings, two Gulf Stream crossings, and all up and down the  coast. Had troubles on only two occasions, both inshore, both on the same day.

I now am back to another of the 6'6"prams, which will again be towed.

I'd rather have the inflatable and a small outboard :D

A sailing dinghy would be nice in anchorages, but mine is not one of those- row only

Having said that, be prepared- the dinghy is completely expendable should something threaten the big boat- knife meets tow lines (yes, lines- always tow with two)

[CharlieJ]

Oh- and for the newer folks- we do have a "catch as catch can" chat running. Sometimes even someone there.  ;D ;D

But you can perchance discuss these things one on one ( or two) there.

Trying to arrange for Thursdays at 8 central as a start, but I'm there now

[hopefulsailor]

Thanks again for all the replies, very helpful. I'm sure I'll be thinking of more questions. 

[Captain Smollett]

Another comment about tools.

Unless you are employed by the yard itself, they probably are not going to just let you use their equipment. 

Yards I've been in had tools available to rent.  For the DIY-er that needs a specialty item not typically carried, that's not too bad.

I would guess it would be cost prohibitive to do as a matter of course, however.

Cruisers that work on boats "for a living" can go all out.  I've read of boats that have full blown shops in the fore cabin, for example...small, sailfar boats under 30 feet...shops equipped mostly with hand tools but also even some power equipment like a lathe.  A single person or even a couple on a 25-30 footer could pull this off easily.  I'm pretty sure this is how Larry Pardey was set up, or at least he talked about it in one of their books.

What I've seen a quite a few East Coast cruisers do is mobilize their shops in trailers.  They pay storage on it while "out," and when they need $$, they retrieve it and bring it to where ever they are.  These can be anything from small utility trailers with stuff stored inside to actual "shop on wheels" with planer, joiner, table saw, basic metal working gear, etc.  Obviously the latter are bigger.

So, at the risk of being cliche, "it depends."  It depends on what you plan to do, how often you plan to do it, WHERE you plan to do it (obviously, the trailer idea won't work as well in the islands or if cruising to far-off-shores).

[Godot]

Re: Learning to sail...there are lots of ways. My father taught me the basics on my grandfathers sunfish when I was aged somewhere in the single digits. Small boats teach quickly as there is immediate feedback. After that, I learned by doing, trial and error, and occasionally scaring the pants off of myself. No promises I'm doing everything right; but what I do seems to work. Most of the people in my marina seem to be self taught. Some of them even appear to be pretty decent sailors. That said, instruction would probably ease the learning curve quite a lot and provide less entertainment (or fear, depending on how close you are coming to their boats) to the casual observer.

Re: the dinghy...I bought the porta-bote with the hope of it fitting on deck. I felt much more comfortable with the idea when I saw a gentleman at the SSCA Gam stow his on a Cape Dory 25 (25D, I think; but my memory has been known to play tricks).

Re: Tools...I keep all my tools and spare parts in several different totes. The majority of my tools I keep in one, with a couple cloth bags to sub divide it out a bit(socket set in one, wrenches in another). I keep a small box for sail repair. I keep a tote full of electrical connectors, and the specific tools required to do that stuff. I keep a tote of miscellaneous parts. I keep a small box for drill bits. I keep a box for hardware. I keep a box for engine specific tools and parts. I keep an oil change box.  There are several others. I don't keep them all on the boat all the time, and drag them from my storage area when I'm doing work; but I tend to do quite a bit of work on the boat (the owner of the marina yesterday suggested that they should move the boat store to pier six for my convenience).  When I leave the dock I tend to keep the basic tool kit aboard, the hardware box, the engine box, and the sail repair kit. If I was planning on being gone for an extended period I would also keep the oil change stuff (although, probably a somewhat reduced kit) aboard. It takes up a noticeable; but not excessive amount of space. If I needed to I could reduce the general tool kit by probably two thirds; but so long as I have the space I figure it is better to keep things aboard.

Minimum tool kit: Wrench set (given a choice I would go for two sets of wrenches...an open end set and a boxed end set...unfortunately it is getting hard to find anything except combination wrenches now-a-days), a 1/4" deep socket set with at least one extension (I keep a 3/8" wrench, breaker bar, and a couple specific sockets for the motor...I don't remember the size), a screwdriver set (combo drivers are OK for normal screws...I like the home depot orange handle one; but I like to also keep a large cross tip and flat blade), a couple utility knives, pliers (wire cutters, duck bills, slip joint) and a couple adjustable wrenches. This would handle 90% or more of the work aboard for me, although some other tools make life a little easier on occasion. I once borrowed a specially designed stuffing box wrench from the marina (their official policy is they don't lend tools...but I've become a frighteningly good customer), which I will add to the kit if I can ever find out where to buy one.

[hopefulsailor]

Thanks again for all the replies. Yeah, I was wondering if I would be able to get things like specialty item such as: power washer, sand blaster, and other heavy items like that. I want to buy a boat, but I was wondering how I could coordinate items like that if I need them. From what I have been reading it doesn't sound like you need any of that, just some good old elbow grease and a lot of sand paper.   
For the dingy question I looked into the nesting pram. Seems like a clever solution to me. I thought about ordering the kit and building it here where I have a garage and stuff.
For the sailing looks like I am going to take a basic keel boat and coastal navigation class. I am sure I will end up scaring myself also. I know how I am. I start getting cocky and confident and then something happens and I get knocked down a few levels. I did the same thing on motorcycles I get comfortable on them and start buzzing around all over and lay it over , so I will have to be aware of that.
I am really looking forward to getting out there though. Seems like a great life.

[Captain Smollett]

Yeah, I was wondering if I would be able to get things like specialty item such as: power washer, sand blaster, and other heavy items like that.

Many of the yards will provide services on stuff like that...they pressure wash the boat as it is hauled.  Usually for a fee, sometimes thrown in with the hauling fee.  The pressure washing would thus be done before the boat is even blocked.  When they charge extra for it (ie, not included in the haul out), it is of course optional.

Sand blasting (or bead blasting) is a service some yards provide, but I don't have personal knowledge of any that rent the gear.  It can be expensive, too.  The yard where my boat is currently charges $150 per hour for sand blasting, but they have a $1000 minimum.

These comments are relevant to "cruising" and working on the boat in a yard.  If you have a boat on your own property and are doing a major refit/restoration, it might be worth having stuff like that in your shop.

You won't, however, need or want to bring it with you.  I wouldn't think so, anyway.

I want to buy a boat, but I was wondering how I could coordinate items like that if I need them. From what I have been reading it doesn't sound like you need any of that, just some good old elbow grease and a lot of sand paper.

Hand sanders, particular random orbit, come in very handy.

You'll need more stuff with you if you plan to work on boats to make money.  That's what my answer above was getting at...most of the folks with the trailers and mobile shops are "earning as they go" by doing boat repairs and projects for people.

If you are only talking about doing your own projects and keeping your own boat repaired, basic hand tools are good for the vast majority of what you'll need.

Big stuff like pressure washers and the like...once a year or once every other year...that's what boat yards are for.  Other miscellaneous tools, particularly power tools, you can usually borrow or rent when needed.  (this is one extra advantage of slowing down the cruise and spending time in a location...you get to know folks that have stuff you might need and are willing to help you; just blowing through, dropping a few bucks at the local watering hole and completely staying to yourself for the 2 days you are in port does NOT help in this regard.   ;)  )

For the sailing looks like I am going to take a basic keel boat and coastal navigation class. I am sure I will end up scaring myself also. I know how I am. I start getting cocky and confident and then something happens and I get knocked down a few levels. I did the same thing on motorcycles I get comfortable on them and start buzzing around all over and lay it over , so I will have to be aware of that.

Confidence is a good thing; overconfidence is not.  Nature and the sea has a funny way of humbling us when we get too big for our britches.  Sometimes, the lesson is "permanent," but usually it is just a bit of embarrassment. 

And it never ceases to amaze me how scary 4-5 knots can be!   ;D  Even on open water with nothing to hit, hardly moving at all (by modern standards), and the pucker factor can get dialed right on up there.  I find it kind of amazing to thing about that.