Advice on designing a seaworthy bilgpump layout?

[SeaHusky]

The first things I must fix on my boat is seacocks and bilgepump system and I ask for your advice on how to make it functional, simple and oceanworthy.
Right now I have two selfdrains from the cockpit leading straight, not crossed, to a throughhull on each side below the waterline.
The galley sink is located beneath the bridge deck and is also connected to the selfdrains.
The only bilge pump at the moment is a manual pump located in the port cockpit storage locker with a suction hose leading down to the bilge and an outlet hose that must be lifted out of the cockpit locker and hung over the side.
This is not ideal as I must have the cockpit locker completely open to use the bilge pump and if the weather is bad more water is likely to enter the boat through here.

My initial thought is to mount an electric bilge pump in the bilge with an automatic water level sensor that can be turned off. This way it will automatically pump dry when the boat is moored unattended but can be turned off while sailing so that I will notice if there is an unusual amount of water collecting in the bilge.
I also plan to mount a manual bilge pump in the cockpit locker but of the type where a handle is inserted through a hole in the side of the cockpit so that the locker remains closed.

My first questions are:
Where/how to put the outlet hoses from the two pumps?
Would you have a manual pump inside the cabin?
Other suggestions? 

Thanks!

[Cruiser2B]

Good thread! I, too, have been giving this some thought. My Alberg 30 has a manual pump located in the cockpit from factory. It discharges from aft above the waterline. I also have a power bilge pump with float and a manual/auto switch that keeps boat dry why we were not at the boat.  I am thinking that while doing a refit I would like to add a whale gusher below decks. This may seem redundant but if I were stuck in adverse weather and needed to use the manual pump I would think it be better to have one located inside rather than in cockpit. Anyone else have a setup like this?

[Godot]

I think an automatic electric pump is a really, really good idea. It's relatively cheap insurance against small leaks. I'm actually replacing mine today. At the moment it Tees into the galley drain; but I don't like not being able to close the below water line galley sea-cock and I will be installing an above the waterline transom thru-hull at some point. It's wired through a automatic/manual/off bilge switch which contains a fuse. I think I'll eventually install some kind of cycle counter so that I will have an idea of how often it comes on. I had no idea that I was taking on quite a bit of water while powering at full throttle through the rudder tube (the prop at full throttle apparently forces water straight up the tube to almost cockpit level...didn't expect that) until my pump died. I thought the water I was generally seeing was slowly coming in through the stuffing box. Of course, turning it off while sailing would have shown the same thing. When away, however, a counter is much more useful as I don't think I'd ever be comfortable leaving the boat unattended for long without an automatic pump.

The electric pumps, sadly, don't seem to last long. I installed only one on s/v Godot when I owned her and it lasted just fine for years. Unfortunately, today I'll be installing my THIRD on Seeker in two years. My last pump I think died after pumping a lot of nasty Hudson River water (entered the boat through the rudder shaft). I don't know what is in that water; but it is thick and smelly and not at all pleasant. I think the original and first replacement pump may have died after small pieces of debris made it into the sump area (there always seems to be small pieces of debris); but I'm really not sure. It could be that having a diesel engine as opposed to an outboard is letting some contaminates into the water that pump doesn't like. I've considered raising the pump an inch to give any poop a chance to settle out, and just plan on sponging out the left overs on boat cleaning days. If away from the dock for an extended period of time, I believe a spare pump identical to the currently mounted pump (so the bases will be interchangeable and installation easier) will be in my spares kit.

A High Bilge Alarm I think is also a very good idea. It's what first alerted me to the failed electric pump. It could also be an early indicator of a more serious problem. I remember sailing Godot the very first time. The weather was up, my seamanship was rusty, and I finally had everything settled down where I could breath for a minute when I looked below and noticed six inches of water above the cabin sole. Not good. It took awhile to determine it was actually coming in through the bilge pump who's outlet was mounted below the healed water line on the port side. Scary until I figured out what was happening. I would have preferred to have been alerted before the water got quite so high. This was fixed, btw, with an anti-siphon loop.

I have a manual pump mounted in the cockpit which definitely came in handy when the electric pump failed. I had originally intended to install one inside the cabin as well. After thinking on it, I don't think I will. The pump works fine for normal dewatering use; but isn't as fast as I expected. If the boat were in serious trouble, I think a bucket would be more efficient to get the initial water level down. If you are sailing, and need to pump, having it in the cockpit (NOT a cockpit locker) is reasonable. If you have a serious problem, though, I think the rest of the crew would be better utilized finding and stopping the ingress instead of pumping from inside the cabin.

As to the outlet, I prefer mounting the thru-hulls well above the heeled waterline on the transom. I think, generally speaking, this provides the most failsafe way of doing it as it is unlikely to encounter conditions where it back siphons water into the boat. Of course, a large wave hitting the transom could force some water in through the outlet thru-hull (not to mention into the exhaust of inboard engines); but I wouldn't expect that to be a continuous thing, and something the pump could handle. I think I might still install a seacock, though, so just in case the pump failed I could close off the potential for water ingress if necessary. If that isn't practical, and it makes more sense to pump through the side of the hull, either install the thru-hull ridiculously high on hull, or install an anti-siphon loop. I learned about that the hard way.

My cockpit drains also go straight down to below the water line thru-hulls. It seems to work just fine.  There ARE seacocks on these thru-hulls. Outside of buying a boat with an open transom (not my cup of tea), I can't think of a better way to drain the cockpit. I think if the lines were crossed they wouldn't work properly. Not to mention that it would be difficult to route through the engine room. The hoses are big and heavy engine exhaust hoses. It seems like overkill; but given that the thru-hulls are below the water line and that the seacocks will pretty much never be closed I wouldn't want to use lighter weight hoses. 

[Godot]

I am thinking that while doing a refit I would like to add a whale gusher below decks. This may seem redundant but if I were stuck in adverse weather and needed to use the manual pump I would think it be better to have one located inside rather than in cockpit. Anyone else have a setup like this?

I don't think I'd go through the hassle of installing a manual pump inside just to keep out of the weather. The electric pump will probably handle most things. If that fails, occasionally getting wet to get rid of reasonable water is just a little unpleasant, and assuming you are at sea gives a good excuse to look around. If things are serious, I suspect that keeping dry would be the last thing you'd be worrying about.

We are talking about pretty low probability events.

However, if it makes you feel better by all means go for it. I know that most of the ocean races require an inside and outside manual pump. I assume there is a reason for it.

[SeaHusky]

So basically I need to make another hole in the hull above the waterline and figure out a way to connect both pumps outlets to it in a way so that they expell out and not into each other and back into the bilge.
It may be way to complex but it would be good if I could connect them to the engine exhaust through hull that is already well above the waterline.
Any ideas or even better a sketch?

[CharlieJ]

On Tehani I have two pumps.

The electric is deep in the bilge, with as float switch AND a manual setting. That way I can see if the pump runs, since there's almost never water.

After some trail and mistakes, I routed the outlet into the cockpit, just above the cockpit drain. The hose goes up and loops around (no pic). This way IF it does start, I see the water coming out and KNOW something is going on.

In this pic the outlet is the hole just above the cockpit drain




Then I have a Whale gusher mounted inside a locker, with the handle side out into the cockpit. The outlet for that goes to the engine well, above the water line

And as an aside. Tehani has NO openings below the water line  - ALL through hulls of any sort are above the water line. The sink has no drain- it get's lifted out and dumped overside.

[Godot]

So basically I need to make another hole in the hull above the waterline and figure out a way to connect both pumps outlets to it in a way so that they expell out and not into each other and back into the bilge.
It may be way to complex but it would be good if I could connect them to the engine exhaust through hull that is already well above the waterline.

I'm not really a fan of combining the connections. Simplicity in my mind has them both going to their own thru-hulls. I do understand the reluctance to drill more holes in your boat, though. Not to mention the added expense. If you absolutely must combine them, I suppose you could use a Y valve and some check valves. Or use something like the  Seasense Dual Bilge Y Valve which already combines them.

Check valves, btw, are not generally recommended on bilge pump applications since this adds a point of failure in a critical system. We all evaluate risk in our own way, though. Lots of people do it. I'm not sure how often they actually fail.

[SeaHusky]

My philosophy which I want to try and put into practice on my boat is functional, safe and KISS.
So far I have a boat which is solid in construction, manufacture and the hull and engine are also well maintained.
As far as KISS goes I conclude that if it works, don't fix it. However if it needs to be repaired or redone, do it according to the philosophy above and do it right!
The boat and most of its systems are 45 years old. Some were done by old standards which are no longer considered valid, some were incorrectly done from the start and some are just at the end of their functional life.
I will actually have redone most of the systems and interior before I am satisfied but I naturally must start with things that effect seaworthiness.

That said, I will put no more holes in the hull below the waterline. There are five already which I will live with for the time being.
So the most KISS way is to have a complete separate system for each pump meaning separate suction, pump and outlet?
CharlieJ's solution is elegant but I am reluctant to have whatever mess ends up in the bilge to pour all over my aged teak cockpit sole.
That leaves me with having to make two new through hulls above the waterline? 

[Godot]

I understand the below waterline concerns. Since removing my air conditioning (rusted out...nice but not KISS at all) and wet head (now composting) I now have several unused below waterline thru-hulls that  I've capped off. On my next long haul I plan  on fiber glassing them over.

As to the above water line thru-hulls, I guess the question is, what does KISS mean to you? To me, adding the extra hole eliminates the need for check valves or other tricky plumbing, it makes it easier (Simpler?) to understand when the SHTF, it provides redundancy, and it eliminates a potential failure point (there would likely be dirty water flowing through the mechanical check valves).

If the thru-hulls are above the full speed water line, you can probably skip the seacocks. That's a judgment call. I'm not sure where I stand on that.

I have no idea what the current "standard" might be. This is just what gives me the warm and fuzzies. Your mileage may vary.

[CharlieJ]

If the thru-hulls are above the full speed water line, you can probably skip the seacocks. That's a judgment call. I'm not sure where I stand on that.

My only hull openings are above the water line for deck drains, and THEY have ball valves on them

[SeaHusky]

I guess making new holes in the hull gives me "new boat owner butterflies" but it is the logical solution.
I think seacocks are something I would rather have and not need then the other way round.

[rorik]

Mathildas sink used to be under the companionway with the drain hose near vertical to a through hull in the engine compartment. I moved the sink to the starboard side of the galley and moved the through hull to just below the sink.

There is a Whale Titan on the port forward side of the cockpit. Pump is in the lazarette, the handle socket is in the cockpit. There is also a small eye strap under the handle socket to clip on the snap shackle end of the pump handle lanyard. The handle is stored in it own little bracket next to the companionway ladder.

In the bilge there is a a Johnson 2000 on a float switch.
In a bag in the lazarette, there is a Johnson 4000 with 15' of flat vinyl hose and a 10' lead to plug into the 12v socket.

Both permanent pumps have siphon breaks.
The outlet sides of both pumps connect in a simple Whale brand "Y" and go to an 1-1/2" through hull above the waterline.

All of the through hulls, above and below the waterline, have backing plates bonded to the hull and bronze seacocks.

Drilling holes in a boat is easy. Just make sure it's where you really want it.
Jamestown Distributors has some pretty good videos on patching old holes.

[SeaHusky]

Both permanent pumps have siphon breaks.
The outlet sides of both pumps connect in a simple Whale brand "Y" and go to an 1-1/2" through hull above the waterline.

How are the siphon breaks done and how do you make sure that some of the water doesn't take the wrong passage through the Y and go back into the system?

[Godot]

For a siphon break, I have used a vented loop like the Forespar MF 842 Vented Loop.

[rorik]

Both permanent pumps have siphon breaks.
The outlet sides of both pumps connect in a simple Whale brand "Y" and go to an 1-1/2" through hull above the waterline.

How are the siphon breaks done and how do you make sure that some of the water doesn't take the wrong passage through the Y and go back into the system?

Hose for each pump comes up out of the bilge, goes into a Forespar siphon break - one for each hose - after the siphon breaks the hoses meet at the "Y" (which is lower than the siphon breaks) and the now single hose runs downhill to the through hull.

[Godot]

This post has got e thinking about my system,  and it has just occurred to me that my system is inadequate!

I have a single pump that is supposed to be 750 GPH (just installed it). Doing a little research suggests that at best I can pump half that. Also, pump failures are far from uncommon (I've demonstrated that!).

I'm thinking of using the small 750 GPH pump as a primary, and installing a few inches higher a much higher capacity pump (2000GPH? 3000?) to use if the primary fails, or if the water ingress is fairly serious.

New project for the winter.

[SeaHusky]

Are your pumps manual or electric or are you planning a combination of both?

[SeaHusky]

Continuing on this thread, since the original bilgepump was not only mounted in a way that I don't like, having to keep the cockpit locker open in order to use it, it had also reached the end of its life and needed replacing I picked up a Gusher Urchin of the deckmounted configuration as showed by CharlieJ above when I was at the chandlery. 



After reading up on the matter I am not sure if I shall mount the Urchin or return it for a Gusher 10 or a Gusher Titan?
As I understand the Urchin is meant to get rid of the daily splash, drip and condensation from the bilge but is not really fit for handling a leak.
The 10, I understand is a classic and the Titan is said to be a light weight development with even greater capacity but may then also be exausting to use?
As I sail solo I will have to sail the boat, pump out water, find the leak, plug it and then pump out the remaining water all by my self and in a worst case scenario this could be in a situation where the electrics have been flooded and shorted rendering any electric pump useless. 
Do you guys have any thoughts or experience to offer on which pump to choose and why? 

[CharlieJ]

Being somewhat prejudiced, I'd go with the Gusher 10. It's worked well for me for years and is simple to maintain. Just keep a spares kit.

It could be mounted (apparently) in the same place, but with handles going through the side wall. I'd mount it so you move the handle up and down, instead of fore and aft.

And by the way- I'd take a serious look at that shackle on the anchor showing