Shallow Draft Blue Water Cruisers

[Owly055]

I'd be interested in hearing what boats folks here consider appropriate for blue water cruising that are reasonably shallow draft.  Many places cannot be accessed with the deeper draft boats.   I'm looking at boats either side of 30'.     Here are some examples:

Albin Vega 27 3' 10"
Westerly Centaur  26   3'
Voyager 26 3'4"
Bristol 27 4'
Bristol 27 4'
Pacific Seacraft Orion 27 4'
Nor'Sea 27 3'10"  ........................ a very interesting boat with it's center cockpit
Tartan 27 3'2"
Cape Dory 28 4'
Cheoy Lee Offshore 28 3' 6"
Liberty Custom 28 4'   (nice wide beam)
Pearson Triton 28 4'
Bayfield 29 3'6"     (nice wide beam and 10'2")
Islander 29 3' 8"
Westerly Konsort 29  3'3"    Bilge Keel
Cheoy Lee Offshore 31  3'10"

     Once you get beyond 30', there aren't many shallower draft candidates.    I particularly lean toward full keel with cutaway forefoot and keel hung rudder, but there are some advantages to bilge keels, particularly as you can stand them on a beach to work on the bottom in a remote area if you have enough tidal range.  Careening is not something most modern sailors want to do with their boats, though it has been done since the earliest days of sailing.   They Bayfield 39 and 31 are particularly attractive due to the broad beam, making for more interior space, though if you can't utilize that space well, there isn't much point.   A broad wide open cabin can be a liability to negotiate in rough seas.  Issues like lots of hand holds, and a decent galley design ........ U shaped would be preferable, and right below the companion way for ventilation.   Having the head forward as seems to be standard is silly as far as I'm concerned.... It should be at the bottom of the companionway opposite the galley for obvious reasons.   A huge cockpit just means a lot of wasted space and less internal space.   The aft portion of the cockpit could just as well be a small raised cabin area for a workshop or storage, etc.  Center cockpit like the Nor'Sea 27 compromises the interior space, moving everything forward, taking putting the sea berths forward of the center of the boat so any motion around the lateral axis will be amplified.  I can see sleeping amidships on the cabin sole as optimal in rough conditions, but it could be wet.
     It also seems to me that removing the inboard motor makes sense for a modern cruiser, with the advent of good reliable 4 cycle outboards.... assuming you rarely run under power, however the charging systems on outboards are not designed to charge the house batteries.  Presumably this could be addressed, though there are an increasing number of extremely compact inverter generators.  On the other hand, I have built several dedicated 12 volt gas generators from small engines, and they can be quite small.     I'd be surprised if there is not something of the kind off the shelf.

........................ Thoughts anybody?

                                                               H.W.

[Frank]

Very good list.

To me, shallow draft is a must. It simply makes life so much easier while away. There are folks that cruise the Bahamas with 6ft+.....but it is so limiting and I imagine...stressful.

My ole Pearson Ariel was truly exellent offshore. (3ft 8in draft) I imagine the Triton would be better. Narrow beam and slack bilge are great in the bigger stuff.

That said, if offshore passages are shorter with easily forecast weather windows, wider beam and firmer bilge are fine. They just 'pound' more in bigger waves.

Gas Generator?   Solar!!!!  Sun is free and doesn't need oil changes  :)

[Owly055]

Very good list.

To me, shallow draft is a must. It simply makes life so much easier while away. There are folks that cruise the Bahamas with 6ft+.....but it is so limiting and I imagine...stressful.

My ole Pearson Ariel was truly exellent offshore. (3ft 8in draft) I imagine the Triton would be better. Narrow beam and slack bilge are great in the bigger stuff.

That said, if offshore passages are shorter with easily forecast weather windows, wider beam and firmer bilge are fine. They just 'pound' more in bigger waves.

Gas Generator?   Solar!!!!  Sun is free and doesn't need oil changes  :)

     With today's equipment being heavily electrically dependent, I feel that at it's wise to have about 3 sources of power.  I totally agree with your feelings about solar, but there definitely are times when solar is not going to be sufficient.   A tow or wind generator, are good for a second source, both based on wind ultimately.   Hopefully one would  not need a gas generator often, but cruisers often run the engine for additional electrical power when other sources fall short of the mark.   With an inboard diesel, this is pretty economical, but somehow running an outboard with it's marginal charging system to boost the batteries doesn't make sense to me.   A very expensive and relatively short life engine / system.   
     It's too bad that it isn't practical to collect enough solar power to drive the boat, as the intertropical convergence zones often have great sun, but no wind.   At about .75 KW per hp.  That works out to a bit over 50 square feet per horsepower unfortunately.   The entire deck area of a 30' sailboat wouldn't have nearly enough footage to produce 5 hp.


                                  H.W.

[SailorTom]

I went through the same process and pretty much the same list. I settled on an Pearson Triton. I basically followed James Baldwin's "Atom" as my template.

I had a center cockpit catamaran, Heavenly Twins 26, which my wife and I lived aboard for about 4 years. The great plus was the helm was near the center of pitch so even in a nasty chop it was still comfortable. But that means the sleeping is in aft where max vertical movement occurs:(

Also mine didn't have a crawl through under the cockpit. So no matter the weather the rear hatch is opened, climb out, hope not to get the wife too wet/cold while the hatch is open, then open the forward doors. Use the head repeat in reverse. I loved the boat but I would not get another without at least a crawl through:)

[Owly055]

A quick scan of DC generating systems for marine use shows a number of Kubota powered units, at least one with options for things like a refrigeration compressor, hydraulic pump, and watermaker pump.   Unfortunately they are not very forthcoming on either weight and price, both of which are likely a bit much.


                                                H.W.

[CharlieJ]

I kinda like my Meridian 25. 17'9" wl, 3'6" draft (loaded) 7 foot beam, wineglass hull.

I use a single solar panel on top of the bimini. Mine is only 32 watts, and I'd like a larger one. But. In 2 1/2 years of live aboard, and several months short term cruising, I've had to go in and hook up the charger twice

Power is an 8 HP Yamaha in a well and could do as well with a 4 I think.

Has the dread "head under the bed" but in real life that's no biggie

Galley is aft, and VERY simple

[Owly055]

I kinda like my Meridian 25. 17'9" wl, 3'6" draft (loaded) 7 foot beam, wineglass hull.

I use a single solar panel on top of the bimini. Mine is only 32 watts, and I'd like a larger one. But. In 2 1/2 years of live aboard, and several months short term cruising, I've had to go in and hook up the charger twice

Power is an 8 HP Yamaha in a well and could do as well with a 4 I think.

Has the dread "head under the bed" but in real life that's no biggie

     Where exactly is the "head under the bed"?    This makes sense to me for a solo cruiser.   I've thought a lot about a composting head that might slide out or be under something like the bed.. This could be awkward with two or more, though the cockpit provides a second space so there can be privacy.     Your galley would be a real female dog to use under way from the looks of it.  no place to stand securely while cooking.   I definitely would not want to be cooking while under weigh.   Is that a one burner gas stove sitting on the counter in the galley at the far right?   I'm looking at online photos, and finally found the "dread head" under the V berth.....A reasonable place to put it in a relatively crowded interior, I was imagining it under the quarter berth on the starboard side for some reason. 
     I rather like outboard wells........ but they take up more space than an outboard mounted on a transom mount.   Outboards offer a lot more controllability in tight quarters than an inboard...... that's a significant plus, not to mention getting the noise and stink out of the cabin, and much better access for service.

                                                       H.W.

Galley is aft, and VERY simple

[CharlieJ]

Stove is a one burner kero, mounted in a gimballed SeaCook ( NOT a SeaSwing)  And it works well offshore. Been across Gulf Of mexico twice, once single hand. Across the Gulf Stream twice. Altogether some 11,800 cruising miles since 2004.

This pic re angled to show pot upright- you can see the heel angle. The first pic showed it in it's stowed position

[Frank]

Quote

    "" With today's equipment being heavily electrically dependent, I feel that at it's wise to have about 3 sources of power.  I totally agree with your feelings about solar, but there definitely are times when solar is not going to be sufficient.   A tow or wind generator, are good for a second source, both based on wind ultimately.   Hopefully one would  not need a gas generator often, but cruisers often run the engine for additional electrical power when other sources fall short of the mark.   With an inboard diesel, this is pretty economical, but somehow running an outboard with it's marginal charging system to boost the batteries doesn't make sense to me.   A very expensive and relatively short life engine / system.   
     It's too bad that it isn't practical to collect enough solar power to drive the boat, as the intertropical convergence zones often have great sun, but no wind.   At about .75 KW per hp.  That works out to a bit over 50 square feet per horsepower unfortunately.   The entire deck area of a 30' sailboat wouldn't have nearly enough footage to produce 5 hp.


                                  H.W.
[/quote]

I'm on month number 4, after 3+ mths last year.
Run my fridge (Engel ice box conversion) 24/7
Charge my Ipad, bose satellite speaker, hand held VHF etc

NEVER been plugged in!!!

one 220 watt panel, 4-6volt batteries....good to go...

[Owly055]

Quote

    "" With today's equipment being heavily electrically dependent, I feel that at it's wise to have about 3 sources of power.  I totally agree with your feelings about solar, but there definitely are times when solar is not going to be sufficient.   A tow or wind generator, are good for a second source, both based on wind ultimately.   Hopefully one would  not need a gas generator often, but cruisers often run the engine for additional electrical power when other sources fall short of the mark.   With an inboard diesel, this is pretty economical, but somehow running an outboard with it's marginal charging system to boost the batteries doesn't make sense to me.   A very expensive and relatively short life engine / system.   
     It's too bad that it isn't practical to collect enough solar power to drive the boat, as the intertropical convergence zones often have great sun, but no wind.   At about .75 KW per hp.  That works out to a bit over 50 square feet per horsepower unfortunately.   The entire deck area of a 30' sailboat wouldn't have nearly enough footage to produce 5 hp.


                                  H.W.

I'm on month number 4, after 3+ mths last year.
Run my fridge (Engel ice box conversion) 24/7
Charge my Ipad, bose satellite speaker, hand held VHF etc

NEVER been plugged in!!!

one 220 watt panel, 4-6volt batteries....good to go...
[/quote]

     My experience (limited) with refrigeration suggests that it would consume more than your solar panel would produce.  It's the largest consumer of power out there.   As I mentioned in a previous post that vanished, I consider AIS, radar, and VHF critical for long passages, particuarly single handing or two handing.   Those pieces of modern tech are priceless in terms of the safety they offer.   Add a chart plotter, GPS, refrigeration, lighting, etc, and the power bill keeps climbing.   Solar only works when the sun is shining without significant cloud cover to reduce efficiency, just as wind only works when the wind is blowing.   Seems to me that it should be possible to use the motion of the boat to generate, but nobody seems to have worked that out yet.   I don't believe in putting all eggs in the solar basket, but solar is a huge advantage.   A tow generator is kind of a no brainer as a backup (wind power).     

     Are you using golf cart batteries?   I do have a lot of experience with batteries, and have found batteries in parallel are a real problem over time.   I would like to see someone develop a parallel battery management device that manages and monitors charge and discharge rates so when batteries no longer match up properly, they can still work in reasonable harmony.   When I hook up parallel batteries, I don't use the battery to battery to battery connections with power at the far end like most people do, as resistance is cumulative.  I use a heavy buss bar (copper bar), and equal length cables.   There used to be battery cable ends for screw top batteries that had a hard plastic cap that sealed down to the top of the battery, excluding moisture, acid, etc, and were then pumped full of grease, effectively making a corrosion proof connection.  Unfortunately I can't find these anymore.   The best commonly available battery set up is 2 6 volt batteries that look like a golf cart battery, but are twice the height, and double capacity.   This eliminates any parallel connections.   There are also the large 2 volt cells that can be connected in series, but they get pretty expensive.

                                                                                            H.W.

[CharlieJ]

There's one huge difference. I don't use refrigeration for food-ever. Only ice and only for drinks, when ice is available. My chest on  the boat will hold a 20 pound block for 8-9 days.

Otherwise the ice box is used for dry storage of pasta, etc

No biggie learning to do without.

[ralay]

We went back and forth to FL in Woody's Aleutka (25' bilge keel) with an outboard on a bracket on one side of the canoe stern.  I guess it worked, but it always seemed kind of iffy to me.  There was no way to set the height of the outboard so that it was correctly positioned in rough waves.  If it was set high, the prop would come out of the water with a terrible whine, especially if one or both of us went forward.  If we set it low enough that the prop stayed in the water, it looked like we might drown the thing.  Maybe a set up like Charlie has where the outboard is in its own well in the stern is better?  Maybe a boat with a full transom with more buoyancy would carry an outboard better?  Our last two boats have had canoe sterns, so it's hard for me to remember how a wide transom rides.  Either way, having had both, I'm happy to have an inboard engine.  Well, until it needs to come out, I guess.

[Owly055]

We went back and forth to FL in Woody's Aleutka (25' bilge keel) with an outboard on a bracket on one side of the canoe stern.  I guess it worked, but it always seemed kind of iffy to me.  There was no way to set the height of the outboard so that it was correctly positioned in rough waves.  If it was set high, the prop would come out of the water with a terrible whine, especially if one or both of us went forward.  If we set it low enough that the prop stayed in the water, it looked like we might drown the thing.  Maybe a set up like Charlie has where the outboard is in its own well in the stern is better?  Maybe a boat with a full transom with more buoyancy would carry an outboard better?  Our last two boats have had canoe sterns, so it's hard for me to remember how a wide transom rides.  Either way, having had both, I'm happy to have an inboard engine.  Well, until it needs to come out, I guess.

With a long shaft outboard designed for a sailboat, mounted to a lifting bracket, there are solutions to these issues.   Evinrude offers the Sailmaster outboard which has a 10" longer than normal shaft.  There is also at least one company that offers conversion kits to extra long shaft.   It's clearly not a unique situation.   It seems to me that it is probably worth the effort to go this route for the advantages in internal space and maneuverability.   The primary use for power on a sailboat should be maneuvering in port.  An outboard excels in this area.

                                                                                                            H.W.

[ralay]

Ah, yes, a long shaft motor does sound like it would have helped.  We made what we had work even though it was less than ideal. 

It would be great if sailboaters really only used their engines to get in and out of port, but most folks seem to find a lot of use for an engine.

[CharlieJ]

Very hard to get around in the ICW without running that engine, MUCH more than wanted. And heading east from Texas to Florida, you are pretty much stuck in the ditch til you cross the Mississippi River. Foolish to go outside except in short hops.I've done that trip, each way, 9 times now.

In addition, you'll be in the single busiest part of the entire intercoastal, from Texas to Norfolk Va. I once began counting, and was met by 13 tows in a 4 hour span. They look like this-check the pic

Once into Mississippi Sound you can for sure sail, and begin making offshore jumps too.

[ralay]

Timing inlets is also a consideration.  If you want to come in during daylight with a tide that's not opposing the wind, you've got a very limited window.  If the wind dies offshore, most folks are going to turn on the engine and try to make that safest window rather than staying outside with their sails flapping and slatting. 

Even if you're unhindered by human schedules, nature is constantly telling you where you ought to be and at what time. 

That said, we've done a lot better this trip.  We have 25h on the engine since New Bern.  But we're doing it by going out while it's spring with cold, nasty, unsettled weather.  Whenever we sail in beautiful summer weather, there's hardly ever wind (except in thunderstorms and waterspouts).

[Owly055]

     My interest is in passage making / ocean crossing.   The places I most want to visit are  many thousands of miles away.   Coastal and ICW cruising, and day and weekend cruises pretty much necessitate a lot of engine use......... and that's what almost everybody does.   To me "blue water cruising" means weeks out of sight of land, followed by some island hopping or visiting foreign ports.   That's the "club" I mean to join.   The folks who cross paths in Costa Rica, and then perhaps next in New Zealand or Tonga, or perhaps Barbados and then Gibraltar or Las Palmas, or Corsica, or the islands off the coast of Croatia, or maybe wintering at  Carthage, or Marmaris, etc.    Or perhaps on Tenrife or The Cocos and Keeling islands......
      It's a big world out there, and I haven't seen nearly enough of it yet............  What better way than to sail?

                                                                                           H.W.

[Frank]

Just thinking of one Ya missed on your list..

Pacific Seacraft Dana 24

Heavy built
Great layout
3'8" draft by memory

Certainly a very capable smaller boat

[CharlieJ]

Wishing you the very best. I too once dreamed of that- built a 35 foot tri, with the southern seas in mind, and beyond.

Life, wives, kids came into the pic. Now at 75, I no longer have the open ocean sailing desire. But cruising is cruising. Bahamas, US Virgins, Mexico, are all close, and easily achievable.

Seriously.

I've been assisting the widow of a friend -they were circumnavigators - part with the left over stuff from that life. He died ON the birthday they shared. But they did the dream.

Hoping you will too

[Owly055]

Wishing you the very best. I too once dreamed of that- built a 35 foot tri, with the southern seas in mind, and beyond.

Life, wives, kids came into the pic. Now at 75, I no longer have the open ocean sailing desire. But cruising is cruising. Bahamas, US Virgins, Mexico, are all close, and easily achievable.

Seriously.

I've been assisting the widow of a friend -they were circumnavigators - part with the left over stuff from that life. He died ON the birthday they shared. But they did the dream.

Hoping you will too

Thanks...........   We have a lot of dreams that never come to fruition over a lifetime, I hope this won't be another of those.   I have the means and the desire, and a heck of a lot of stuff to wrap up and / or get rid of first.   Actual circumnavigation is not a goal, though it is almost inevitable ultimately.

                                          H.W.