Propane on boats

[Owly055]

     How do people feel about propane on boats?   Seems to me like it is treated pretty casually by most people.  It's about the most convenient cooking and/or heating fuel.  I cook and heat with it at home, and am pretty comfortable with it, though I've had some minor incidents over the years.

     I've seen the consequences of natural gas leaks before, and it's not pretty, and propane is every bit as dangerous if not more so.  Propane settles into the low spots.  I've also read that in some countries you cannot get American propane bottles filled as they don't have the connections to do it.    Apparently you can get alcohol for your Origo virtually anywhere.   

     Paul Howard and Fiona McCall in their excellent books about taking their young children on a 5 year odyssey around the world briefly mentioned a young couple who set out for French Polynesia at around the time of their own crossing, and simply vanished into "thin air"...... No storms or anything that would explain their disappearance.   Presumably equipped with a good life raft and EPIRBs, not a trace was ever found of them or their boat.   There are few calamities that could happen in good weather, mid Pacific that would not allow you to abandon ship and activate an EPIRB.

     The incident happened before the days when AIS and radar were standard equipment on small ocean going yachts, so the only logical / likely disasters that might have befallen them were a propane explosion, or being run down by one of those freighters with nobody at the helm in the middle of the night.   

     I know what happens to fiberglass in an explosion from an experience a friend of mine who was involved in shady operations over the years (died a year or so ago).    D was involved in one of those arms smuggling operations during the Reagan era when the CIA and others were smuggling arms into Nicaragua.   He and a friend set out from one of the Caribbean islands with a load of arms for the Contras, and as they approached the shore, a fiberglass speed boat (armed patrol boat), came out and ordered them to heave to and prepare to be boarded.   D had gone below for weapons,  as their only choice was to fight it out or be hauled into a Nicaraguan prison never to be seen again.  They had no illusions about the consequences.   As he came up from the hold, he lobbed a concussion grenade into the patrol boat with the idea of disorienting them long enough to give the two guys the advantage.  Needless to say they were well armed with a boat load of weapons.   To his amazement, the boat simply disintegrated, nobody even made it to the surface.   Just some flotsam remained on the surface........ A fiberglass speedboat and 5 men......... just gone!   That was D's one and only foray into arms smuggling, he'd had enough.  It was a situation he'd gotten into more or less unwillingly anyway as a result of other circumstances.

                                H.W.

[CharlieJ]

Propane, properly installed and monitored, is quite safe. And there are adapters available for European fittings.

Having said that, I've always used kerosene, or really 100% mineral spirits, since way back in the 70's. And will til I can't get parts

And for full  time use, alcohol is THE most expensive fuel you can use. In the Bahamas a few years ago, a gallon was $30

[ralay]

We had a pressurized alcohol stove on our first boat and it was a hardship compared to propane.  Getting it lit was exciting.  It burned my eyes.  And it took forever to heat anything up.  We cooked on an electric hot plate instead whenever we had 110V.  Maybe there are better stoves/stove operators? 

Our propane stove/oven cooks great.  The tank has a vented locker and the boat came with a sniffer/solenoid combo.  We do a pressure test every time we fill the tank.  OK so far.

[Frank]

I agree on the alcohol thoughts...  Had a 2 burner years back on my Flicka. Slow to heat and expensive, plus I hated the metal cans banging around.

I've found propane to be safe and a fast heat.

On Allure, I upgraded to a 20lb tand and am still using the same tank at the end of the 2nd winter cruise. I'll fill it next winter before heading out. The tank is stored on the aft cockpit sole in a dedicated locker that drains overboard. The selonoid is there as well.

Not much of a tip, but 2 things I do...
I always use the small burner unless I really need a big pot or pan on (less fuel usage)
The selonid switch is beside the stove so I use it to shut the stove off. That way I know it is working and no gas can come below. I got that idea years back from the Pardey's....simple and makes sense...

I'll check how much propane I have left later, but a 20lb tank sure goes a long way with the small burner.

[Godot]

I have a propane stove system with a ten pound tank hanging off the stern. In a summer including a 30 day cruise to New England, I think that stove did pretty much the entire summer for two. For an extended cruise I'd buy another 10 pound tank. I don't have an oven and don't bake.

It also scares me a bit. In fact, I've often wondered how people who wouldn't have gasoline on board do to its' explosive nature are so comfortable with propane.

Propane sniffers should be replaced periodically. They aren't cheap. I need to replace my whole propane sniffer/solenoid control as it is decades old. I could probably modify the new style sniffers to work by cutting off the connectors and wiring directly to the panel; but as comfortable as I am playing with electrics, given the scary nature of propane I don't like that idea. Plus, the system is old, which makes me nervous. I suppose I could use the mark 1 nose as a sniffer, and often do; but I like the electronic backup. I suspect my insurance company does, too. I did replace the (again, old) propane lines the first year I owned the boat.

My stove isn't that hot compared to others I've seen. It's old and has smallish burners. I've cooked on a friends Origo before, and I think it did as well. In fact, it did much, much better than I expected given the cool fuel alcohol is supposed to be. So I'm not sure speed of cooking is much of an argument for me. I guess I'm not in that much of a hurry. The propane canister Sea Cook stove is much, much hotter and boils water much faster than my fixed galley installation.

If you buy Alcohol Stove Fuel, especially from a Marine store, it is a bit more expensive. Buy it from a big box store's painting section as paint thinner (it is still often labeled for marine stoves), the price is much less (home depot has it for $16 gallon, Walmart for $50/five gallons, though the container might not be convenient). I've never done my own comparisons, but I believe others when they say that propane is still much more affordable. I wonder where Charlie found the $30/gallon fuel in the Bahamas, marine store or hardware store. It might make a difference. For the Bahamas, at least, it seems like it should be possible to bring an adequate supply from the US. In some places it might be cheaper to buy high proof booze. I don't know.

It could be depressing to forget to put the neoprene cover over the alcohol burners when done with cooking. Alcohol evaporates pretty rapidly, and I'm not sure how well the little metal sliding cover would work at slowing evaporation.

Having not cruised much outside the US, I can't talk to availability. I understand propane is available most places now-a-days. I hear, though, that it is often not convenient to the waterfront, and sometimes taxis don't want to carry propane. I've heard that European sailors are more married to the alcohol fuel (perhaps do to European safety rules?). I suspect there are few complaints to lugging alcohol. I don't know, though.

Some people complain of the smell of alcohol. It never bothered me.

I wouldn't use a pressurized alcohol stove. If you can even find one new, anymore. Too finicky and probably too dangerous.

I may be changing systems in the future. If I'm going to have "hot" propane, I might as well have a stove with burners big enough to take advantage of it. On the other hand, I don't cook big, complicated meals, and I seldom find myself in a gourmet rush, so I think the affordability and efficiency of propane fuel might not be a big issue for me. The basic safety and simplicity of alcohol might just win out.

I think you will find that people who use Origo style stoves are generally very pleased with them. Most folks who use propane stoves are equally passionate about them. So, in my usual long winded way, I guess I can say that I just don't know which way to go.

[Frank]

Tank in aft cockpit footwell where any leak spills out easily through above waterline drains. Note pressure after 2 full winter cruises.

Selonoid switch right beside stove makes it easy to turn off

[Tim]

I installed mine in the Ariel in the motor well inside this locker;



There is a drain from it that goes overboard, and the motor well is also sealed from the rest of the boat.

Also there is a solenoid shut-off switch at the stove site;

 

[ralay]

It's also worth mentioning that the solenoids do draw a bit of power.  (Ours draws 1A).  On the Aleutka we had an arrangement where there was a rod and packing gland that came into the galley from an LPG shutoff valve on deck.  Didn't take any power, but not easy to implement unless everything is arranged just so. 

Our sniffer sensors need replacing too.  It's enraging that they're so expensive as they're circuit boards with about 10 components.  The actual sensing components cost a few dollars.  But each one is tested at the factory (ours have a little "OK" on each board) to ensure they respond within some sub-explosive range.  It wouldn't be possible to do the same quality control at home.  *sigh* 

[Owly055]

It is worth noting that pressure tells you absolutely nothing about how much propane is in a bottle.   Propane is liquid in the bottle, and pressure will vary with temp, but not start to drop until the tank is virtually empty.

                                                                            H.W.

Tank in aft cockpit footwell where any leak spills out easily through above waterline drains. Note pressure after 2 full winter cruises.

Selonoid switch right beside stove makes it easy to turn off

[CharlieJ]

It is worth noting that pressure tells you absolutely nothing about how much propane is in a bottle.   Propane is liquid in the bottle, and pressure will vary with temp, but not start to drop until the tank is virtually empty.

                                                                        H.W.

Yep- filled by weight

[Frank]

It is worth noting that pressure tells you absolutely nothing about how much propane is in a bottle.   Propane is liquid in the bottle, and pressure will vary with temp, but not start to drop until the tank is virtually empty.

                                                                            H.W.

[/quote]
You are right!!
Learn something every day!! Thanks
The only way is to wiegh the tank and subtract the empty tank weight to see whats left

[Owly055]

I've been wondering with solar panels at under a dollar a watt if anybody is cooking at sea using an induction cooktop or induction hotplate.   With plenty of solar power, and a few REAL deep cycle batteries, not the "marine deep cycle" junk, it might be feasible to run a 1500 watt induction cooker long enough to cook dinner.    Of course at 130 watts to the square yard of area for a 15+% efficient panel, they gobble up space rather quickly.

                                                  H.W.

[ralay]

I noticed the temp/pressure relation while trying to check for leaks in the winter.  I think the mass of propane in the tank was a lot warmer.  If you let some out in the lines then closed the tank, you would see a big pressure drop even though there was no propane smell and no soap bubbles.  I think the gas just cooled quickly and the pressure dropped.  Had to go with soap bubble tests until spring.  Likewise, I've had to snuggle with my half empty backpacking stove canisters to get enough pressure to cook on cold mountain tops. 

There are some threads on cruisersforum where folks talk about having induction stoves.  They're quoting electrical use that's way beyond our a ability to generate, but it seems possible if you're committed to finding room for the panels and batteries.  If we had a flat top shanty boat, we'd have solar panels galore, but it's really hard to find places to mount them on our sailboat.  If you've got enough money to get those flexible, non-skid, walkable panels, that might do it.