self steering options

[Owly055]

Speaking entirely from inexperience.......... There seem to be 2 self steering options, and I've never used either.   The wind vane steering system pioneered by Blondie Hassler, and the electronic autopilot.  There are  numerous variants on wind vane steering, both horizontal axis (most common) and vertical axis, most using a paddle trailed at the stern to provide the actual force to operate the rudder, resulting in a relatively complex simple steering system.   Simple in principle, complex in execution.    Some even have their own rudder.   The more intriguing systems to me are the ones that utilize trim tabs added to the rudder, which in applications where this is feasible would seem preferable, as they eliminate the additional underwater mechanism.   Unfortunately it would seem to me that a trim tab system is pretty much limited to a transom hung rudder without doing something pretty radical.   That means that most of the boats suitable for long distance blue water sailing are out where trim tabs are concerned, as the rudder post tends to be well forward of the transom.   That precludes a simple rugged linkage to a trim tab unless you want to punch another hole through the hull ;-(.     Some of my favorite designs however use a full keel with cutaway forefoot, and a transom hung rudder that hangs on the aft end of the keel.
     Electronic autopilots seem to have a reputation for failure under constant heavy use.  There is a monotonous litany of "the autopilot failed and I had to hand steer the last two days", and similar stories.   There is also the issue of limited power.   They not only draw quite a bit of electrical power to operate, but their power to work the tiller is limited enough that they can often be overpowered in heavy seas that don't faze a wind vane.    The tracking ability of the autopilot has been described as superior, as it's not tied to the wind direction, but this would seem to be a mixed blessing in the open sea where your exact course is not of that much importance on a given tack, but it can add distance.   Then there is the fact that the autopilot may be set up to maintain a compass course, in which case if the wind shifts slightly, you will be resetting the sails, but if it's set up to maintain a course based on the wind like a wind vane, it should do exactly the same thing as a wind vane.   Again I speak entirely from inexperience.

     My thinking is that the electronic autopilot offers the best set of options, but potentially the least reliability.    My conclusion was that a "marriage" of the two systems in the form of an autopilot that operated a trim tab rather than operating the tiller directly would offer the best of both worlds.   There would be very little power draw, and stress on the autopilot, greatly improving it's life expectancy and reliability.     It could even be tied to the lower portion of your wind vane steering system, the under water paddle just as the wind vane would, to accomplish the same reduction of load and increase in reliability.

     There truly is nothing new under the sun, as I have learned since the internet came along.   If I have an idea, I can almost bank on the fact that someone else has had the same idea.   I won't bother dredging up links........ if you are interested, you can google them up for yourself.  Suffice it to say that at least the trim tab version has been done before.   

     If this all sounds a bit silly, it's understandable...... But a marriage of the two systems offers significant benefit.    The solid reliability of wind vane steering can't be beaten, but the ability to hold a compass course has it's advantages also, and potentially can reduce passage times.    Being able to swap, that is remove the actual vane, and hook up the auto pilot gives you two options, and more than one option is always a good thing in my experience.   

     The trim tab steering system is very attractive as opposed to the conventional system..... It eliminates the swinging tiller, and the blocks and lines that connect to it.  The tiller for example could be socketed into the rudder post so you could completely remove it, or rapidly slip it back into the socket if there was a need, or it could be set up to pin upright in the vertical position, leaving the cockpit completely clear.    And as I said previously, it offers the elimination of the structure behind the transom holding the water vane.

     These are just my random rambling thoughts on the subject, as I've never used either system......... thought I intend to.

     Thoughts, comments, experiences, experiments.?????    I'd like to hear them.

                                        H.W.

     

[ralay]

I'd add sheet-to-tiller steering systems as a third option.  Woody's Aleutka 26 had twin headstays with twin jibs and twin whisker poles for the purpose of being able to have super simple downwind sheet-to-tiller steering.  We sailed from TX to FL using sheet-to-tiller and handsteering.  The Aleutka was designed by John Letcher who wrote Self-Steering for Sailing Craft.  I'm not sure how sheet-to-tiller would work with a junk rig since many of the set ups took advantage of opposing forces on sails before and after the center of effort.  The Aleutka also had a balanced rudder and took relatively little force to hand steer.

Our Westsail 32, on the other hand, 2-3 times as heavy and has and enormous stern-hung rudder with a tiller the size of my bicep.  Hand steering in anything but flat water is exhausting.  We have an Aries servo-pendulum wind vane and a used autopilot.  I'd say they are complementary rather than serving the same purpose.

The windvane steers very well even in a lot of wind, but doesn't work in light wind.  The autopilot steers well in flat water (usually light wind) but can't handle much wave action.  Our autopilot is probably undersized for our boat, so maybe folks with lighter vessels get more use out of their autopilots.  Since our boat takes a real fresh wind to get moving, we more use out of the windvane.

The only other drawbacks to the wind vane are that it's rudder sometimes gets fouled with seaweed, it takes a lot of fussing to set it, and it doesn't steer a perfectly straight course in the short term.  Our windvane, "Flippy," steers a little like a drunk.  He averages a nice straight line, but it's made by a series of oversteering and correcting in each direction.  We couldn't set a course dead downwind and expect him not to jibe the boat repeatedly.  But then you can't expect a lot of people to steer a course dead downwind in big waves and not jibe.  We rig a preventer and set Flippy to a very broad reach, then jibe by hand as needed.  Seems like Woody can set the thing quickly every time, but I have to screw with it a lot more - making sure the boat is balanced, that the slack is out of the lines, that the tiller is just so.  But when it's set right, it's awesome.  We've had the rail buried in squalls and Flippy steers like it ain't no thing. 

We've met some folks who had small autopilots set up to push their windvane rather than their tiller.  It's difficult for us to figure out because the stern of our canoe-stern boat is so crowded with the tiller, rudder, boomkin, backstays, and main sheet.  The autopilot is Woody's project.  He probably has more informed insights about making autopilot-windvane mutants.  Or look for a copy of that Letcher book.  It's all online for free now.  Woot.

http://www.jesterinfo.org/selfsteeringforsailingcraft.html

[Owly055]

     Sheet to tiller definitely would be a great option........ it eliminates all the "junk", but  like you, I figured that it probably would not work on a junk rig..... Unless you used a small jib just for the purpose, and I don't think that's out of the question........  sheet to tiller steering isn't going to work well in gusty winds as it relies on sheet tension.   
     Sheet to tiller really is just another kind of wind vane, except that it has enough power that there is no reason for a water paddle.
     I saw a video clip of a sailboat a fellow built that had a large rigid vertical axis wind vane on the stern with the Union Jack painted on it.   He'd sailed from the UK to Iceland and back with it.

     I've been wondering for a long time why so few rudders have any balance area forward of the pivot axis.  There really isn't any excuse for the WS32 to have heavy steering except poor engineering.   
     Really mediocrity is the rule, not the exception in the engineering field.   Look around you and you can't  help but observe that engineers make the same stupid mistakes over and over in every field, and seem more likely to adopt the poor aspects of other designs rather than the brilliant innovations.  Automobiles would be a classic example.  I see numerous dumb ideas that were abandoned in favor of superior design many years ago, dragged out of the dustbin of history and reincarnated as new and innovative thinking.  It happens again and again.   A classic example is the lug nut.   The cone shaped lug was adopted long ago because it worked and was reliable.  They are being replaced with flat face lugs in many applications..... and those don't work well and tend to loosen up.   The reason that existed in the beginning still exists, and the system still doesn't work well, and never well because it is fundamentally flawed.
     I'm sure we have engineers among us... and if they are intellectually honest, they would not disagree with this.

     Your WS32 really offers no practical solution to steering effort except to install a wheel, the solution many  yachts resort to for exactly this reason I suspect.  You get a mechanical advantage to mitigate poor design.    It would be a rather interesting project on a stern hung rudder.... can't call it "transom hung as there is no transom", to engineer a tiller that utilized a trim tab for assist..... nor would it be difficult to design really.  It would amount to "power steering", and could be configured to give exactly the right amount of assist for good feel and reduced effort.   I can close my eyes and get a mental image of exactly how it would be done.    There is really no reason for a boat, a car, or an airplane to steer hard or be directionally unstable.   I once modified the geometry on a rear steering vehicle that was almost uncontrollable beyond walking speed so that it was dynamically stable, and could be driven at highway speed safely.  They told me it couldn't be done, because other vehicles of that type were extremely difficult to drive and dynamically unstable.  Analysis of what was occurring revealed one simple geometry change that involved building an idler in the correct location  so that the angle of the drag link was different.   A few hours of work in the shop, and it was fixed.    Interestingly nobody ever copied it.  There were many of them around here, and still are quite a few, and everybody still just lives with them the way they were originally designed......... Go figure!    I did similar engineering on a home built aircraft with similar results, years later, and the result was an aircraft that wanted to go straight on the ground instead of one that wanted to go into a ground loop when you got below rudder control speed..... no more toe dancing on the brakes. 

                                                                             H.W.

I'd add sheet-to-tiller steering systems as a third option.  Woody's Aleutka 26 had twin headstays with twin jibs and twin whisker poles for the purpose of being able to have super simple downwind sheet-to-tiller steering.  We sailed from TX to FL using sheet-to-tiller and handsteering.  The Aleutka was designed by John Letcher who wrote Self-Steering for Sailing Craft.  I'm not sure how sheet-to-tiller would work with a junk rig since many of the set ups took advantage of opposing forces on sails before and after the center of effort.  The Aleutka also had a balanced rudder and took relatively little force to hand steer.

Our Westsail 32, on the other hand, 2-3 times as heavy and has and enormous stern-hung rudder with a tiller the size of my bicep.  Hand steering in anything but flat water is exhausting.  We have an Aries servo-pendulum wind vane and a used autopilot.  I'd say they are complementary rather than serving the same purpose.

The windvane steers very well even in a lot of wind, but doesn't work in light wind.  The autopilot steers well in flat water (usually light wind) but can't handle much wave action.  Our autopilot is probably undersized for our boat, so maybe folks with lighter vessels get more use out of their autopilots.  Since our boat takes a real fresh wind to get moving, we more use out of the windvane.

The only other drawbacks to the wind vane are that it's rudder sometimes gets fouled with seaweed, it takes a lot of fussing to set it, and it doesn't steer a perfectly straight course in the short term.  Our windvane, "Flippy," steers a little like a drunk.  He averages a nice straight line, but it's made by a series of oversteering and correcting in each direction.  We couldn't set a course dead downwind and expect him not to jibe the boat repeatedly.  But then you can't expect a lot of people to steer a course dead downwind in big waves and not jibe.  We rig a preventer and set Flippy to a very broad reach, then jibe by hand as needed.  Seems like Woody can set the thing quickly every time, but I have to screw with it a lot more - making sure the boat is balanced, that the slack is out of the lines, that the tiller is just so.  But when it's set right, it's awesome.  We've had the rail buried in squalls and Flippy steers like it ain't no thing. 

We've met some folks who had small autopilots set up to push their windvane rather than their tiller.  It's difficult for us to figure out because the stern of our canoe-stern boat is so crowded with the tiller, rudder, boomkin, backstays, and main sheet.  The autopilot is Woody's project.  He probably has more informed insights about making autopilot-windvane mutants.  Or look for a copy of that Letcher book.  It's all online for free now.  Woot.

http://www.jesterinfo.org/selfsteeringforsailingcraft.html

[ralay]

Are you saying you think the WS32 specifically has a poorly designed rudder?  Or that keel hung rudders are a poor design compared to balanced spade rudders?  Or something else?

You mentioned some of your favorite blue water designs have transom hung rudders.  Do you prefer a wheel?  I'm confused what part is poor engineering. 

We've met a lot of folks one Westsails, but haven't seen any with a wheel yet.  Folks must be finding other practical solutions.  I suspect most are like us and just let the windvane steer. 

[Frank]

I had only ever seen sheet to to tiler working with a main sail. A friend Todd Mills had his perfected....was awesome to see.i wouldn't doubt it would work with a junk rig.
Relay...thanks for pointing out the twin head sails working with sheet to tiller as well. I've since googled it and saw pics of the set up. Makes sense.
A bit of weather helm is needed on a boat. That's the built in safety factor that causes them to nicely round up into the wind when over powered.
To a great extent weather helm can be controlled by sail trim as well as what sail get Reefed how much in what conditions. All boats differ...Ya gotta learn your boat by playing in those varied conditions....

No matter what system you go with, be it a vane or a tiller pilot or combo system you engineer yourself, the key to any self steering system is sail trim. Without proper sail trim, the systems become stressed and do not perform well.

[ralay]

Not sure if the bit about weather helm was directed towards me or a general comment about self steering.

If at me, maybe I should clarify that I don't think it's excessive weather helm that makes our boat trying to steer, I think it's the force of waves on the rudder.  In flat water it's easyy to balance and steer.  In the ocean, it's tiring to hold the tiller steady while waves try to jerk it back and forth. 

If in general, yes, good point.  Balanced boat, happy boat, happy crew.

[Owly055]

Are you saying you think the WS32 specifically has a poorly designed rudder?  Or that keel hung rudders are a poor design compared to balanced spade rudders?  Or something else?

You mentioned some of your favorite blue water designs have transom hung rudders.  Do you prefer a wheel?  I'm confused what part is poor engineering. 

We've met a lot of folks one Westsails, but haven't seen any with a wheel yet.  Folks must be finding other practical solutions.  I suspect most are like us and just let the windvane steer.

I'm merely saying that a boat that requires excessive effort to steer and leaves you worn out has a definite design deficiency.   Few if any boats or machines lack flaws in some areas, and this is especially true where boats are concerned because of the short production runs compared to other things.

I suspect that boats that have heavy rudders use wheels for that reason, and reading on the subject would tend to confirm the "remedial wheel".   I'm not a fan of wheels personally, but many people obviously are.  I was suggesting that here are methods of reducing the effort level of a heavy tiller that should be incorporated into the design BEFORE the customer gets the boat.    There is absolutely no reason why a transom hung rudder cannot have a balance surface with just a bit of "creative engineering".  Tilting the pivot axis to a more vertical axis would allow for some balance area forward of the pivot for example, and is not "rocket science".   The top of the rudder post would remain where it is, and the lower gudgeons would allow for the rudder to be further away from the aft end of the keel.   The space thus created would allow for the rudder to be designed with some counterbalance surface forward of the pivot axis.  It wouldn't take very many degrees of tilt to make quite a bit of difference.  Or a notch could have been cut out of the aft end of the keel below where the gudgeon just beneath the prop rests that would have allowed the lower portion of the rudder to include a portion that extended forward of the pivot axis with a heavy lower shoe support from the bottom of the keel to the pivot axis.   

There are a number of reasons I prefer a transom hung rudder, nor do I believe they necessarily have to have a high effort level.

I've never even been on a WS32 or any other Westsail boat, so my comments really were with regard to engineering in general, not the WS32 in particular if that makes sense.   The WS32 has a tremendous reputation as a blue water boat that is incredibly rugged, and to me it is a beautiful boat as well.  The draft of 5' is the only thing that keeps if off my list.   As a blue water boat by design, rudder effort is obviously not a huge priority.  Nobody hand steers on long passages..... it would be exhausting in any boat without crew enough to hand off frequently.

My reading about various boats suggests that the WS32 can have significant weather helm, but that sail balance plays a significant part.  Also it is said not to be "nimble" as a result of the full length keel, which obviously is going to make it want to track pretty straight in the water, and resist rudder input.   

Again, as with my thoughts on wind vane steering, this is NOT based on personal experience, but on reading, and looking at boats and photos of boats, and thinking about their various design strengths and weaknesses.

                                                                                      H.W.

[Owly055]

I had only ever seen sheet to to tiler working with a main sail. A friend Todd Mills had his perfected....was awesome to see.i wouldn't doubt it would work with a junk rig.
Relay...thanks for pointing out the twin head sails working with sheet to tiller as well. I've since googled it and saw pics of the set up. Makes sense.
A bit of weather helm is needed on a boat. That's the built in safety factor that causes them to nicely round up into the wind when over powered.
To a great extent weather helm can be controlled by sail trim as well as what sail get Reefed how much in what conditions. All boats differ...Ya gotta learn your boat by playing in those varied conditions....

No matter what system you go with, be it a vane or a tiller pilot or combo system you engineer yourself, the key to any self steering system is sail trim. Without proper sail trim, the systems become stressed and do not perform well.

I think the last paragraph pretty much says it all    ...........................      I like the simplicity of the sheet to tiller using the main sail.   It should be noted that much of the trim on a junk rig will be in the design of the rig itself as with a single large sail, there are only a few things you can do to change trim, mainly the luff hauling parrel(s).   The placement of the mast far enough forward, and the percentage of the sail fore and aft of the mast would seem to be the critical components to good balance.   Fortunately while possible mast locations may be limited, you have leeway of from about 10% to abut 30% balance area (area forward of the mast).  Also fortunately, a junk sail can be made from most anything and serve decently due to the very light loading on the fabric because of the fact that each batten is supported by a parrel to the mast, and all but 2 of them generally are sheeted.   This means that you could build up several cheap sails using glue and painter's drop cloth material or poly tarp in the quest to get optimal balance.
     Annie Hill (google her) has sailed all over the southern latitudes on several junk rigged boats.  After splitting up with her partner/husband, she lost her beloved boat Badger, and bought a boat of her own, which after sailing Bermuda for awhile soon decided to convert to a junk rig.   In this boat she raked the mast forward slightly due to an issue with the mast step location.   She's written of having the conviction that a mast could be designed to be raked "in flight".   A radical but interesting concept.  This would give an additional tool for trimming, but would hardly be worth the mechanical complexity.   Unlike a Bermuda rig, you don't have a backstay to tighten or loosen as a trimming tool.   The advantages of a free standing mash however, in my opinion far outweigh the disadvantages.

    Is that photo of your boat with the interesting solar panel installation?   At about a dollar a watt, it's becoming difficult NOT to own a bunch of solar panels these days.  My power usage at home is low enough that I could fairly easily go off grid.

                                                         H.W.

[Captain Smollett]

Unless you used a small jib just for the purpose, and I don't think that's out of the question........

Why would it be out of the question?  Hiscock's book "Voyaging Under Sail" (I think it is, going on memory here) has a whole chapter on self steering methods and the evolution of them.  Included are several systems that have dedicated steering sails.

  sheet to tiller steering isn't going to work well in gusty winds as it relies on sheet tension.

First reaction is that this statement is wrong and contradicts my own and many other's direct experience.  On reflection, I guess it depends on how you define "work well" and "gusty." 

NO self steering system "works well" in gusty enough winds.  Letcher crossed the Pacific several times with his sheet to tiller systems, and Pat Henry completed her solo circumnavigation using sheet to tiller gear (crossing, I believe, the Indian Ocean...again, going by memory).  There's two examples of it being used in "the big tank" in real conditions, and many of us here on this site have direct, personal experience that it works well enough.

"Gusty" is not the problem for sheet to tiller steering.  The system responds to gusts.  It does not JUST rely on sheet tension, but also weather helm (which changes as the boat heels).  It's a feedback system.

Shoot...Letcher himself even stated clearly in the book that the "design purpose" of STT self steering was to prevent the boat from rounding up in gusts...

Where sheet-to-tiller 'fails,' if one insists on calling it that, is when the sustained windspeed changes significantly; that is, when the time average sheet tension/weather helm changes, the tension on the device counter acting the sheet tension has to be adjusted. No big deal, really.

Also, a similar comment can be made about wind vanes.  Vanes have their range of "operable winds" wider than STT gear, but the size of the vane DOES often have to be adjusted for sustained windspeeds.  The wind vane set-up for 5 knot sailing is not the same as that for 40 knot sailing.

So, we have to make adjustments to the set up.

   

Sheet to tiller really is just another kind of wind vane, except that it has enough power that there is no reason for a water paddle.

This is at best a very gross oversimplification of STT steering.  It takes some digging through Letcher's writing to get to the proper explanation as to how STT works, but it really boils down more to how the boat's weather helm changes in puffs and lulls (or being turned on/off the wind by waves, etc) than the sail acting as a "wind vane."

Look at the gear set up and try to run a model in your mind for how the forces work out.  You'll note the sail acting as a "vane" does not properly explain the steering inputs the gear provides.

As a simple exercise, consider a boat that is close hauled and steering is done via STT gear. The sheet is pulling the tiller windward, counteracting (or providing, depending on how you word it) the weather helm.  If the boat rounds up into the wind, the sail would luff and sheet tension drops to zero.  This would allow the 'spring' to pull the tiller to leeward thus turning the boat MORE upwind.

But, that does not happen.  A similar 'analysis' reveals an incorrect behavior if she falls off.  An increase in sheet tension (due to the more sail surface area presented to the wind) would turn her FURTHER off the wind.  She's not self-steering if we think of the sail as a "vane" providing sheet tension.

Rather, as the boat rounds up (from whatever cause), she tends to heel less and the hull shape in the water changes and weather helm decreases.  If weather helm decreases, the sheet tension exceeds it pulling the tiller to windward, steering now AGAINST the external input that has caused her to round up. Tiller to windward, boat resists the force 'trying' to get her to round up (gust, wave, whatever).

Again, similar statement can be made about falling off....increase heeling causes more weather helm which in turn exceeds the "sheet tension" counteracting it so that boat rounds up a bit.

One can go through a similar 'analysis' for off the wind.

The upshot of all this is that "Sheet Tension" is ONLY providing the force to counteract weatherhelm for a BALANCED BOAT sailing on course.  The real "steering" is done by the changes in that weatherhelm as the boat's heading relative to wind changes...sheet tension stays mostly constant, but weatherhelm goes up and down, providing the inputs for steering.

So, again, one can see that "Gusts" are handled just fine.  What is not properly handled is changes in the tension required to counteract the weather helm for a "balanced boat sailing on course" if the sustained windspeed changes.

I saw a video clip of a sailboat a fellow built that had a large rigid vertical axis wind vane on the stern with the Union Jack painted on it.   He'd sailed from the UK to Iceland and back with it.

Most contemporary commercial wind vane designs use horizontal axis vanes.  Vertical axis vanes can work of course; they have been around for what, about 5-6 decades now? But, they are relatively rare as much more power is developed in horizontal axis vanes.

[Owly055]

Cap S.

    Throw out some uninformed thoughts on self steering, and what do I get?    Some good informed and useful insights........ some of which I can't claim to yet understand completely, but that is nothing new.

     As I plan on setting a boat up as a single mast junk rig, there is one issue with sheet to tiller steering.   A junk conversion from a sloop or cutter normally uses one very large sail that encompasses the entire sail area of the original rig into one sail.  This is possible because the sail is largely rectangular.... except the upper panels normally.    They are often even larger to utilize light winds, as a junk sail doesn't flog because of all the battens, and they also self reef in moments just by releasing the halyard.  The sail dropping accordion like into the lazy jacks without the need to tie anything.     It also means that the mast must be set considerably farther forward to keep the center of effort in the same location more or less.   
    It also however means a complex sheeting system with a sheetlet going to the end of each batten except perhaps the top couple, as well as to the end of the boom.  These sheetlets are connected with an array of pulleys to equalize the forces on each batten end....... or attempt to, so as to reduce sail twist. 
    This in some cases at least creates a situation where in a close reach or close hauled, at least one pulley and a double sheet is liable to be in the working area of your sheet to tiller steering arrangement.  Watch a Utube video of a junk rig on a close reach....... and there are several, and you will see this.   On a beam reach, broad reach, or run, you are likely to have only a single sheet to deal with.   This complicates sheet to tiller steering enough to make it seem impractical, at least to me.

     Setting up a forestay and foresail on a junk doesn't make sense....... to me at least for several fairly obvious reasons.   One being that a forestay should be part of a team of a fore and back stay, and there is good reason for a free standing mast on a junk.   You'd have to release the halyard to tack in order to clear the backstay.  Another being that the mast is so far forward that you would need a bowsprit to have a decent forestay angle.   Then there is the matter of how you handle the foresale and sheet during a tack.   It's all pretty self defeating when the original objective was to have a simple easy to sail rig for single handing, where you never have to get out of the cockpit to wrestle with sails and sheets, etc.

     The wind vane system makes far more sense.

     The other option that's interesting is to rig a Yawl with a fairly small mizzen.   There are a number of accounts of yawls being able to self steer entirely using the mizzen with the rudder free floating, in fact that was one of the original reasons for the yawl setup.   It also offers the potential of using a reefed mizzen as an anchor sail, not a bad thing at all.   The mizzen should be easily handled from the cockpit.    Is that a more complex or a simpler system than wind vane steering?   After reading about setting the mizzen up for self steering, I'd say simpler.  You don't have all that junk in the cockpit, and in fact you could even get the tiller out from "under foot" entirely between tacks if you wanted.  It looks like a win win situation to me.

    Again I speak from zero experience with yawls....... just what I've read, so I would enjoy hearing how these things have worked for others.   I really enjoy picking people's brains on this stuff....... Lots of apples of wisdom fall from those like yourself who are willing to share.    Thanks again for your post.   

Here's a web page where a fellow describes using the mizzen on a 15' yawl  (yes you read that right.. 15') to self steer.   Makes an interesting read.

http://navigatorjoel.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-incredible-self-steering-ellie.html

                                                H.W.

[Owly055]

I forgot to mention when talking about the Yawl rig, that Joshua Slocum's boat Spray was a Yawl, and he used the mizzen to self steer on 46000 mile circumnavigation (1895-1898)............. but I'm sure you already know that.

[CharlieJ]

Couple of points (interesting discussion by the way-keep it up-,we ALL learn)

Colvins' Gazzelle is a junk Schooner with a pretty good sized jib:)

Secondly, having used STT steering offshore for several days, the issue

"  You don't have all that junk in the cockpit, and in fact you could even get the tiller out from "under foot entirely between tacks if you wanted."

is a  non issue. Once set up, there is no reason to GO back there. Tacking? Have sailed for close to 3 days on the same tack offshore- as to direction, winds are normally very steady once out there, in the prevailing winds, on a course. usually little need to tack.  Remember - Slocum  once sailed several thousand miles in the Pacific, never touching a sheet.  ( I haven't had that experience :( )

I have a half built wind vane from Belcher's Book on vane steering, but so far have relied on a tiller pilot  (If I was going to VOYAGE offshore, I'd carry several as the offshore racers do) and/or I've used STT steering. I carry all the gear for that aboard always.  A point here- my boat has a keel hung rudder, way under the counter, and once sails are balanced steers with a finger tip-

[CharlieJ]

a minor point- Spray WAS a sloop. Slocum converted her to a yawl.


Picky picky :)

And really, was NOT that great a boat. Slocum was a MASTER mariner,, which helped a LOT!

By the way, last year marked the 140th anniversary of his departure from Boston Harbor

[Owly055]

a minor point- Spray WAS a sloop. Slocum converted her to a yawl.


Picky picky :)

And really, was NOT that great a boat. Slocum was a MASTER mariner,, which helped a LOT!

By the way, last year marked the 140th anniversary of his departure from Boston Harbor

That seems like a total non-issue.  Most yawls and ketches are versions of boats that are otherwise sloops.  Stepping a small free standing mast next to the transom and adding a small sail to it is hardly more of a conversion than bolting on a wind vane steering system.  A yawl sail looks like it would provide very little actual drive, and is really designed for balance more than anything.   I'm quite sure this was it's purpose in Slocum's case.   Note that the Libredade, the boat he built and sailed his family from South America home when his trading ship was wrecked on the coast, was also Yawl rigged.........  Not to mention being a junk rigged boat. 

Achieving good course holding by balancing the main and mizzen with a yawl rigged boat, and no rudder input would seem an attractive alternative.   It would also be cheap and easily built and rigged, and as I mentioned, it would make a good riding sail when at anchor.     Did you check out the link I gave above?

http://navigatorjoel.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-incredible-self-steering-ellie.html

As to the rudder and "junk" taking up cockpit space, the cockpit on most boats is huge, and in nice weather, and decent seas, could be a great work area for projects on a long passge if you had some way to cover the foot well, and get the tiller out of the way.  It's really the roomiest place on a sailboat.   The area within the arc of the tiller is pretty much wasted space, one reason I really like the design of the Nor' Sea 27 with it's aft cabin under the tiller........... efficient use of space.

                                     H.W.

                                                       H.W.

[CharlieJ]

Nice site.

I'm familiar with the Navigator. Currently working on  the build of two of Welsford's boats down in Port Aransas.

I also know John Welsford personally. Met him at Sail Oklahoma twice. Great guy

[Captain Smollett]

Cap S.

    Throw out some uninformed thoughts on self steering, and what do I get?    Some good informed and useful insights........ some of which I can't claim to yet understand completely, but that is nothing new.

That is why we bat things around here.  We all have something to learn...and something to share.

Responding to your remarks in my post above force ME to really think about what Letcher had written.  I had worked through a bunch of it before - internally - but had never expressed it to someone else to see if my wording of it made sense when said "out loud."

Having said that and having reviewed what I wrote, there are a few things I'd change, but not much of substance.

     As I plan on setting a boat up as a single mast junk rig, there is one issue with sheet to tiller steering.

Indeed, and you make some excellent points.

I'm "theoretically" familiar with the junk rig, but have never sailed a junk or even set foot on one.  So, your comments have gotten me to thinking "Is there any reason STT won't work/won't be a good fit?"

I can't say, of course.  But, I as a natural optimist, I am inclined to say that a STT system  should be able to be figured out that WOULD work - provided the boat was well balanced (a requirement for ANY self steering system), at least for some junk rigs.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any fundamentally "physical" reason the proper feedback loop cannot be devised.  Would that be convenient given the details of a particular set up?  Maybe not.

It also means that the mast must be set considerably farther forward to keep the center of effort in the same location more or less.   

This part I can comment on.

The position of the mast is fundamentally immaterial to self steering.  What does matter is the turning forces (aka "helm balance") and how the boat responds to steering inputs (a kind of understeering, oversteering and neutral effect).

This in some cases at least creates a situation where in a close reach or close hauled, at least one pulley and a double sheet is liable to be in the working area of your sheet to tiller steering arrangement.

There's no single place a STT rig needs to be connected to the sheet, so I'm inclined to suppose (and it is nothing more than that!) that a suitable connection point can be devised.  There is no one way to do STT self steering.

  Watch a Utube video of a junk rig on a close reach....... and there are several, and you will see this.

Will do.  Sounds interesting.  I've always been very interested in junk rigs but have never looking into the details of sailing them.  I'll try to watch with an eye toward STT possibilities.

This complicates sheet to tiller steering enough to make it seem impractical, at least to me.

I'm not sure why that would be so, but maybe it will be clearer after I look into a little bit more.

If two conditions are met:

(1) the boat's weather helm changes when her course relative to wind changes

and

(2) She responds to steering inputs in a certain way (a hull characteristic that can be measured, not related to what rig is above the hull)

then she should theoretically be able to self steer with the sheet.  That's theory, anyway.

Setting up a forestay and foresail on a junk doesn't make sense....... to me at least for several fairly obvious reasons.

May not be necessary.  Some folks may add stays or sails for the purpose of self steering systems, but that does necessarily mean that's the ONLY way to skin that cat.

     The wind vane system makes far more sense.

That is perhaps true, but don't forget that the rules that govern "what can work" for sheet based self steering still apply to vane steering.  It all boils down to balance (counteracting weather helm), sensing changes in that balance and the boat responding to the steering inputs you thus provide.  You can't get around this.

If a boat will self steer well with a vane, then she PROBABLY can be made to do so with sheet inputs.

So, we have the idea of "redundancy."  I have long been a proponent of people with vanes having the gear and knowing how to use STT...simply because the gear is simple and can be made from stuff you use for other things anyway (a few lines and a block or two, and something to provide leeward tension).

I am again reminded of Pat Henry's solo circumnavigation.  She had experienced vane failure(s) and MULTIPLE repeated electronic autopilot failures and she tried STT.  She commented specifically in her book, "I wish I had tried it sooner."

So, the point is, it does not have to be an "either or."  There's long term merit in having the know-how on your boat to get her to self steer with STT gear, but there's short term as well:

(1) You can employ self steering while you save for / shop around for the 'right' vane for your boat.

(2) What you learn about getting your boat to self steer with STT gear will pay dividends if you ever have to troubleshoot the vane.  It happens.  No self steering system is "set it and forget it" regardless of what "they" say.

The other option that's interesting is to rig a Yawl with a fairly small mizzen.   There are a number of accounts of yawls being able to self steer entirely using the mizzen with the rudder free floating,

Not to be nit picky, but that's less a characteristic of the rig and moreso one of the hull.  Or to be more precise, it's a question of overall balance (hull+rig), how that balance changes and how the boat responds to steering inputs.  My well balanced, full keeled Alberg 30, for example, has "self steered" close hauled off the coast of Charleston, SC by me merely easing the main just a very slight skosh and letting go of the tiller.  Granted, this was in light seas (they had been 6 ft-ers earlier in the day but had settled to sedate 4 ft gentle swell).

So, while yawl's might have some intrinsic value in this regard, it is not unique to them and not ALL yawl's would thus do.

    Again I speak from zero experience with yawls....... just what I've read, so I would enjoy hearing how these things have worked for others.   I really enjoy picking people's brains on this stuff....... Lots of apples of wisdom fall from those like yourself who are willing to share.    Thanks again for your post.   

That's what we are all here for...to bat it around, noodle it out.  We all benefit from the noodling process...moreso than whatever "final answer" we arrive upon.

And, just to throw this one into the mix, here's a video of us "self steering" on a broad reach on a boat that would NOT 'self steer' very well generally speaking.  She has sailed just fine with STT gear, but on this day, I was playing around and wanted to try just a "tiller lashing."

Now, the mistake I have made in the past (**) with "tiller lashing" is making the lashing too tight.  (&&)

Anyway, the boat is a mess (hadn't had her Spring Cleaning yet), so I apologize for that.  We are broad reaching in about 12 knots of wind or so.  You can see we DO go through some largish course swings (++) before she corrects, but she DOES correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv6knl0-GAc

(**) I don't recall what sparked this idea, but it dawned on me that immobilizing the tiller was keeping the boat from turning.  It sounds like that's what you want for self steering, but after watching things for a bit, the idea hit me...let her "respond" and THEN recover...don't try to prevent the 'natural response.'  If that makes sense...

(&&) And thus we see the power and importance of just trying stuff.  Experiment.  It's your boat; get to know her.  Never stop trying to find what makes her "happy."

(++) There's an article on the 'Net somewhere and it has been discussed here on sailfar a few times where a dude compared self steering "performance" for a wind vane vs an electronic autopilot.

What he found was VERY interesting to ponder:

(a) The tiller pilot held a steadier course than the wind vane.  The vane allowed much broader course oscillations.

(b) Speed Made Good, that is getting to where he wanted to be (and this was, if I recall correctly, an ocean passage) was actually greater with the vane despite the larger course oscillations.

One hypothesis is that the TP provided so many rudder inputs so as to "brake" more.  Another, more spiritual / philosophical explanation is that the vane allowed the boat to "just go with things" a bit more rather than fighting and trying to beat the boat's behavior into submission.

I have found it a fascinating result to ponder, and that dude's article formed at least part of the basis for me to try a looser lashing and "live with" the seeming large oscillations.

A gifted sailor and wonderful teacher once told me, "In sailing, the quickest way between two points is a zig zag line."  That seems to apply here.

Another "hint" to me to loosen up that lashing and just TRY it was given by an article or comment written by Lin and Larry Pardey.  The comment had to do with helping another couple troubleshoot a wind vane that would NOT steer the boat.

At the end, it was found the lines connecting the vane's output to the tiller were just too tight.  They loosened them, quite a bit as I recall, and everything worked! 

Sometimes with boats, some "give" is the way to go.  That goes against just about everything else in our culture, but there it is.  I've become a believer.

[CharlieJ]

"My well balanced, full keeled Alberg 30, for example, has "self steered" close hauled off the coast of Charleston, SC by me merely easing the main just a very slight skosh and letting go of the tiller.  "

An interesting little tale about me and Tehani. Just after i had gotten the tiller pilot, I was sailing across Matagorda Bay- about a 20 mile sail. Had hooked up the pilot, set a course, and she was sailing along well BUT every 5-6-8. minutes, I was having to nudge the boat back on course. Was beginning to get real aggravated with the tiller  pilot until after about an hour of fiddling, I realized I had it set to STANDBY. The boat was sailing itself for the most part, but was being hindered by the pilot holding the tiller!!!

Here's a video of Tehani sailing under STT over in Mississippi sound. Notice how small the tiller movements are. And you can see where the power is being picked off from the dead end part of the main sheet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

[Owly055]

Cap'n S

     My comment about STT not making sense on a junk rig due to multiple sheets and blocks pertains to the fact that at some point the equalizer block between the upper and lower set of sheets is liable to be in an area where it will need to move through one of the snatch blocks during the steering process.   However as the travel is not going to be very far, just re-arranging the hardware a bit may well solve this.

     I'm in 100% agreement with your comments about learning how to set up self steering multiple  ways.  It goes along with things like having multiple ways to generate power, supply water, etc, as well as ways to jury rig in an emergency where you lose a mast or rudder, and materials to patch and repair things.    On a long passage your resources are limited to what you have on board.     I recently watched a video made by a French competitor in the Jester Challenge, and obviously very experienced sailor, and was a bit shocked by what I saw as his unpreparedness.  He was forced into the Azores after a 90 degree knockdown, NOT because of rig damage, but simply because his cockpit lockers were not secured and he lost half his water supply, and his winch handle........ apparently his only winch handle.   Rigging was intact, self steering undamaged, etc.   Things both in the cabin and in the cockpit area were not well secured, and in the sea state in which he was sailing, I would want everything secured and "ship shape".   He also suffered a minor injury during the knockdown, which seems to be the rule rather than the exception during those occurrences, and a dorade allowed water to flood into the cabin along with the olive oil and other stuff that burst, creating an ungodly mess.   It was a good lesson in how one should be prepared, though it wasn't presented that way.   By contrast Roger Taylor, who is a supremely well prepared sailor suffered a similar knockdown in the Labrador Sea and broke 3 ribs, but the boat suffered no damage, and no supplies were lost... and no water entered the cabin.   I'm obsessive about being prepared for any eventuality in general.  Folks laugh about the array of tools, etc, that I carry when I travel long distances by road, but when things go wrong I can fix them wherever I am, but things rarely ever do, because of the same obsession.   In a boat on a long passage the problem for me will be deciding what I can leave behind, because I will want to take everything but the kitchen sink.   

     As far as a yawl rig, there are a number of places where it is cited as being originally devised as a way to self steer simply by the way it is sheeted in relation to the main.  It would be a simple thing to rig, as a free standing short mast could be attached to the external surface of the transom, and with a properly set up boomkin, it would be self tacking, and require none of the messing about that various head sails can require during a tack.  It also would provide the second sail that a single stick junk normally lacks, to allow the two sails on opposite ends of the boat to balance the helm, while keeping it completely out of the cockpit area, unlike the typical ketch.    It would be an interesting thing to experiment with, and wouldn't require much money or time and effort to set up.

     A junk sail has luff hauling parrels which adjust the percentage of the sail percentage fore and aft of the mast, and that's about all the trimming tools you have.  The pay off you get is simplicity.   You should never have to get out of the cockpit, and really manage the boat with two lines.  The halyard and the sheet.  The load on the sheet is very light due to the semi balanced nature of the sail where the battens cross the mast, and 10-30 percent of the sail area is forward.   No winches needed, no sail track on the mast, no tying reefs into the sail or swapping head sails, no roller furling or in boom furling to fail just when you need it most, no standing and chain plates rigging to fail, sending the mast by the boards.  You take in a reef without even setting your coffee cup down, and each batten is a reef point.   Rather boring compared to sailing a Bermuda rig, but when things get rough, boring is good ;-)


                                          H.W.

[Owly055]

"My well balanced, full keeled Alberg 30, for example, has "self steered" close hauled off the coast of Charleston, SC by me merely easing the main just a very slight skosh and letting go of the tiller.  "

An interesting little tale about me and Tehani. Just after i had gotten the tiller pilot, I was sailing across Matagorda Bay- about a 20 mile sail. Had hooked up the pilot, set a course, and she was sailing along well BUT every 5-6-8. minutes, I was having to nudge the boat back on course. Was beginning to get real aggravated with the tiller  pilot until after about an hour of fiddling, I realized I had it set to STANDBY. The boat was sailing itself for the most part, but was being hindered by the pilot holding the tiller!!!

Here's a video of Tehani sailing under STT over in Mississippi sound. Notice how small the tiller movements are. And you can see where the power is being picked off from the dead end part of the main sheet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

Looks like the tiller could pretty much just be lashed in place.    I'm convinced that the towed dingy is what's doing the steering.   Pull the dingy aboard and the boat would wander all over the place ;-)

                                                                                    H.W.

                                        H.W.

[Captain Smollett]

I'm in 100% agreement with your comments about learning how to set up self steering multiple  ways.  It goes along with things like having multiple ways to generate power,

{snip}

Well again at the risk of picking nits, there is a bit of a difference here.

Having STT gear on board and available is NOT having anything extra.  It's "simpler" than any other self steering gear, even the vane or tiller pilot it is the back-up for.

Having multiple electrical generation options represents an increase in complexity.  Such complexity is a well known engineering principle, and there are (in some systems) diminishing returns for trading 'redundancy' for 'complexity.'

To add STT back-up to the boat requires only knowledge on the part of the skipper.  To add electron generation requires additional 'stuff.'

That is what constitutes a sort of dividing line between what we call "Sailfar boats" ... the experience and knowledge of the crew trumps "stuff on board."

The question ultimately becomes "Why do I need these electrons?  CAN the boat be safely operated without them?"  That is, is it necessary to add back-up generation equipment?

Each must do their own analysis and their own 'cost-benefit' calculations.  But the philosophy here has been for a long time "simpler is better."  It's not just that "simpler is cheaper" or anything like that.

Rather, "simpler really is better."  Adding "systems" and "back-up systems" creates system interdependencies that further increase complexity.  Getting rid of "systems" rather than adding them makes the boat more robust and more, for lack of a better word, "survivable."

I offer the case study of Ken Barnes vs Donna Lange as a useful model for my thesis.  Barnes' boat had multiple depths of redundant systems and Lange's did not.  This complexity did not make Barnes' boat more 'survivable' at sea and arguably contributed to his need for rescue vs Lange continuing (and completing) her circumnavigation even though they experienced the same storm in the same bit of ocean at the same time.

At the end of the day, no "systems" or back-ups and back-ups to back-ups can replace the knowledge and experience of the skipper.  STT reinforces this very nicely: it improves the boat's survivability (allowing the crew stand less tiring watches if the main self-steering gear fails) without adding ANYTHING to the boat that is not already there.

Can the boat "survive" without electricity?  There have been MANY cases where the crew's life was placed in danger because various systems on the boat depended on electricity and the electrical system failed.  Electricity is a convenience...helpful, but not "necessary" in by far the most cases.  Using 'convenience' to add to system/boat complexity seems to me...and so far as I know, several others here on this site...stepping in the wrong direction.  One can make the boat truly dependent on electricity, but that risks ultimately DECREASING survivability of the boat by pulling effort/resources/storage space/etc into maintaining nothing more useful than the complexity itself.

I hope it's clear the point I'm trying to make and that it's also clear that I am not knocking any one individual's decisions regarding how they outfit their boat.  I'm only trying to bring forth another way to think about these things...a philosophy we have discussed here many times over the years.