Cooking Alchemy...... Tri Tip to tenderloin in 12 hours

[Owly055]

This is not specifically applicable to cooking aboard ship, but the results were so amazing I had to post them here.     Yesterday I purchased an Annova Sous Vide, which is a device for precisely maintaining water temp with a heating element and circulating pump for precision water bath cooking.  I bought it primarily for controlling mash temperature when brewing beer........ yes I'm a homebrewer with hundreds of brews "under my belt" (and it unfortunately is beginning to show).     I had marinaded several tri tip steaks in anticipation of this purchase, and when I got home from the city last evening, I vacuum sealed these, and dropped them in 133 F water for 12 hours.    Did you get that temperature??  133 degrees farenheit.   My water heater runs at about that temperature.    This morning I had steak and eggs for breakfast.   The tri tip steak, which is usually somewhat chewy, and nothing to brag about came out of the bag, was patted dry, and dropped on an extremely hot grill for a very brief time on each side.  Just enough to brown it.  The result was amazing.  It was moist and melt in your mouth tender, reminiscent of a tenderloin, and of course shot through with flavor from the marinade.   I'll never buy an expensive steak again!!   One of my favorite cuts of meat is chuck, because of the marbling and flavor, and chuck tends many times to be quite tough, though not always.  I can't wait to try this on chuck.  Above 130 all pathogens are killed.  Not immediately, but over a period of time that is not all that long.   The only exception is the spores of botulism, though the bacteria itself is killed.   At 133, the meat comes out a lovely pink medium rare color, even after 12 hours of cooking, and it is said even days of cooking.  Some cuts of meat such as brisket and chuck call for 24 hours or more.  There is a science to it, and a great deal of information on line.   The $150 I paid Target for this device seems like a lot, but the savings from being able to make cheap cuts of meat into a meal fit for a king will rack up pretty quickly.    This is true alchemy!!
                                                            H.W.

[Owly055]

The light suddenly lit up for me.   Bacteria including botulism spores are on the outside of meat, not the inside.  Suppose one were to flame sear a piece of meat, and immediately drop into a bag and vacuum seal it.  It could then be put into hot water and slow cooked at 130 degrees or so for a few hours to 24 hours or more, leaving it medium rare.  At that point, all living organisms are dead, and the meat cannot spoil.     How long would that piece of meat remain edible / palatable if stored in a dark place at ambient temp?    The obvious flaw in this thinking is that there could still be botulism spores introduced from the environment between the flame searing, and the vacuum sealing.   There are test strips, but I don't think they are readily available, and I have no idea of the cost.   Imagine being able to store meat long term and have it come out like a fresh steak.  Warm it to  130 again in hot water, open it up and toss it on the barbeque for a few minutes each side...........

                                    H.W.

[ralay]

I don't think your first assumption is correct.  There are  bacteria (ex: Listeria monocytogenes) that are systemic intracellular pathogens that can spread throughout the tissues of humans and food animals.  L monocytogenes is also a facultative anaerobe with a very low infectious dose.  L monocytogenes can cross the blood-brain barrier and the placenta and listeriosis kills more people in the US than botulism.  Unlike C botulinum, I don't think it produces a heat stable secreted toxin.  So you might be okay if you really cooked the heck out of it before eating.  But the infectious dose for L monocytogenes is really low (1,000 cells). 

You'd also have to worry bout contaminating your meat/bags/utensils with more than C botulinum.  S aureus is another facultative anaerobe found on human skin.  It produces a secreted, heat stable toxin (like botulism toxin) that survives cooking.  S aureus isn't very deadly, but it causes pretty awful vomiting.

Anyways, there's a wide world of microbes out there beyond botulism.  That and tissue has plenty of autolytic enzymes that would probably start to break down your steak at room temperature even in a sterile environment.

CJ is a big fan of canning.  That's probably a much safer method, although, obviously canned meat is probably no substitute for medium rare steak.

[CharlieJ]

Yep,, Hot Pack canning. and even at that, I have unopened jars of meat canned several years ago that are going to be dumped. Seal is still intact but the consequences of spoiling are just too severe, particularly aboard a cruising vessel. I've had them too long

[Owly055]

 I bow to your superior knowledge of pathogens, though I've spent a lifetime eating medium rare meat...(beef and lamb only).  You obviously are more knowledgeable than I am.
    There is a lot of disagreement as to what temperatures are safe.  In the past we lacked the means to maintain precision temps for extended periods of time, and the safe cooking temps that are published are based on typical cooking environments.  Bacteria kill depends on both temperature and time.  I can hold a piece of meat for 48 hours at 130-135 easily and accurately. Something you could not do in the past.   This extended exposure should kill all living bacteria....... at least according to some.   My reason for concern regarding botulism is that the spores can survive much higher temps, though the bacteria themselves cannot. 
     Better safe than sorry...........   I guess.   Your comments have driven me to do an experiment.   I will do exactly as I have described, and set the meat aside for several months in a dark place at room temperature afterwards.   I'll cook for 24 hours at 132, and just see what happens.   It's obviously not a realistic test because I have no idea what organisms are in or on the meat.   It will no doubt be interesting to see the results as the months go by.   Spoilage bacteria generally produce gasses that will cause swelling, but other bacteria may not. Swelling will be a dead give away.  After 90 days at room temp, I will open the package if it has not exhibited swelling, and examine the contents.   The test will not really be meaningful in any conclusive sense, and I will not eat the resulting product even if it looks and smells perfect.  I will do a "control" that I'll keep frozen just for comparison.  I don't have the labs of the CDC or FDA, but I do have 6 senses.   This is not intended to draw any real conclusion.   Over a 3 month span at room temp, spoilage bacteria should have an observable effect, other bacteria perhaps not.   I unfortunately no longer own a powerful microscope, but I suspect that a piece of meat teaming with life should have an observably different appearance than a sterile piece of meat.  Perhaps I can get the microbiology dept at the local university to examine the results

                                       H.W.

I don't think your first assumption is correct.  There are  bacteria (ex: Listeria monocytogenes) that are systemic intracellular pathogens that can spread throughout the tissues of humans and food animals.  L monocytogenes is also a facultative anaerobe with a very low infectious dose.  L monocytogenes can cross the blood-brain barrier and the placenta and listeriosis kills more people in the US than botulism.  Unlike C botulinum, I don't think it produces a heat stable secreted toxin.  So you might be okay if you really cooked the heck out of it before eating.  But the infectious dose for L monocytogenes is really low (1,000 cells). 

You'd also have to worry bout contaminating your meat/bags/utensils with more than C botulinum.  S aureus is another facultative anaerobe found on human skin.  It produces a secreted, heat stable toxin (like botulism toxin) that survives cooking.  S aureus isn't very deadly, but it causes pretty awful vomiting.

Anyways, there's a wide world of microbes out there beyond botulism.  That and tissue has plenty of autolytic enzymes that would probably start to break down your steak at room temperature even in a sterile environment.

CJ is a big fan of canning.  That's probably a much safer method, although, obviously canned meat is probably no substitute for medium rare steak.

[Norman]

CJ, if you did those meats in a pressure cooker at 15#, they are good forever.  That is about 400 degrees.

Hot pack, 212 degrees, I have eaten many that were over 3 and some at 5 years old. If you hold the temperature long enough at 212 you are pretty safe.  Nice and tender too!

We do our slow cooking at about 160 to 180, not precise, for 4 to 6 hours, and find it tender and delicious.

Since I have no taste for near raw meat, very low temperature cooking passes by my interest.

CJ, go ahead and cook and eat those "old" jars of meat, they are fine!

[CharlieJ]

Thanks Norm. They were canned aboard in Boot Key Harbor in 2010. Still feel I should dump- even if they are probably good, why chance it? I can re can

As I said, the consequences, anchored out , far from help, are just not worth it. Although itx kills me to waste the work !!

Tell your lovely wife I said hi

[Owly055]

CJ, if you did those meats in a pressure cooker at 15#, they are good forever.  That is about 400 degrees.

Hot pack, 212 degrees, I have eaten many that were over 3 and some at 5 years old. If you hold the temperature long enough at 212 you are pretty safe.  Nice and tender too!

We do our slow cooking at about 160 to 180, not precise, for 4 to 6 hours, and find it tender and delicious.

Since I have no taste for near raw meat, very low temperature cooking passes by my interest.

CJ, go ahead and cook and eat those "old" jars of meat, they are fine!

Norman:
      To each his own...... I don't consider medium rare to be "near raw".   I like a bit of "moo" left in my steaks and roasts, and I understand that this offends some people.  What I have learned over the years is that once meat passes a core temp of the low 130's, it gets tougher and tougher, until it then begins to become tender again after long cooking.  At this point it does not resemble meat to me anymore, and has lost all of the texture and flavor that I love so much.   I've been eating meat this way for well over 50 years, and ignored all the scares about eggs, and haven't died recently, or been the victim of foodborn illness.......... or much of any illness of any kind.

     I've been canning various things since I was a child..... believe it or not.    My mother didn't can anything, but when she realized I was interested in such things, provided me with the means and the information to do it.   I've seldom been without a pressure canner, and a water bath canner, so I'm not a stranger to any of this.  I've actually been considering building a chamber vacuum sealer so I can do retort canning.   Retort bags are far easier to store than jars, and they are opaque.  You vacuum seal, then pressure cook.   

     I am naturally intrigued by the possibility of preserving meat in the state in which I prefer to eat it.   Probably not practical, but interesting.   I was recently in a Walmart store (don't tell anyone), and saw whole corn on the cob vacuum sealed in a clear bag on the shelf among canned goods.   It was firm to the touch.  Not that I really care about corn on the cob particularly..........but I am curious about the process, and regret not buying it just to see what the quality of the product was.

                                                                                             H.W.

[ralay]

CJ, I agree with Norm.  If it was canned properly to begin with and is still sealed, there's no reason to think there are any microbes/toxins in it after a few years that weren't there after a few months. 

[ralay]

If you've never gotten sick, it might just be because getting contaminated food is rare.  Leafy greens, not meat, are the most common cause of food poisoning, but obviously most salads go down just fine.  It's just a question of weighing the risk against how you like to your food.  Most folks will risk a small chance of vomiting to be able to eat uncooked veggies.  The same folks might agree that following a jelly recipe to the letter is worth avoiding even a tiny chance of dying of botulism.  No point in arguing over whether certain rare/raw foods are worth it.  Everybody's going to have their own assessment of risk vs reward.

I mainly intended to point out that there may be microbes throughout a piece of meat, not just as surface contaminants and that methods of home preservation (including canning and curing) don't rely on simply treating the outside.  Canning is concerned with having the right temp/acidity throughout.  Salting requires the brine/nitrates to penetrate the center of thr meat over weeks.  Air curing requires the center of the meat to dry over months/years.  I don't think vacuum bagging would be any different.

As for botulism, 120C/250F is the oft cited temp for spores.  Not going to happen without an autoclave/pressure cooker.

As for low temp/long exposure, 130F really isn't that hot when you consider many mammalian pathogens have an IDEAL temp near 100F.  The FDA guidelines I found advise not allowing ready to eat foods sit at temps between 70F and 135F for more than 2h, which makes me think 135F is still at the upper limit for growth of some pathogens and probably wouldn't kill them even with prolonged exposure. 

Of course, that might not matter at all if that's how you like your meat and you think your chances of getting contaminated meat are small. 

I agree a meat-in-the-closet experiment probably won't tell you much if you don't know what you're starting or ending with, but I am curious to see some old closet meat photos.  Report back to us.

[Owly055]

     I of course eat raw veggies all the time, and am very aware of the risks of contamination on farm, and in harvesting.  Remember the salinas valley spinach issue a few years back?   
    Jams and jellies are about the safest of canned goods.   The PH is almost always low enough that it will prevent botulism, hence the water bath process instead of pressure cooker, and spoilage that does occur if it occurs, is not generally of a pathogenic type, and is easily observable. 

     I stand repeatedly corrected on the topic of bacteria in meat.   
     However I still assert that bacterial contamination from handling and spoilage processes is a surface phenomenon, at least until the meat is well beyond the point where you would even remotely consider consuming it..... unless you were a dog.   I had the experience in 1979 and 1980 of living alone year round in sheep camp on a huge ranch...... of over 100 sections.   I was brought supplies about once a week to 10 days.  I learned that I could keep fresh meat for a surprising amount of time with absolutely no refrigeration, mainly by exposing the surface to airflow so that it didn't develop that bacterial slime that is the precursor of decomposition.   Even in the summertime in the mountains I was able to accomplish this by taking measures to keep flies completely away from the meat while hanging it in a well ventilated shaded location where the bears and such couldn't get to it.    My own "dry adobo" mix helped extend the life of these pieces of meat.  The key in this case was to use large cuts of meat, not steaks.   A piece of meat that was starting to smell was not a problem if I didn't let it get too far.    The microbes were on the surface, and a hot griddle took care of the problem.  I had a lot of experience, but I began with some understanding of the process.    I ate meats that a fastidious housewife would grab with gloved fingers, while holding her nose with the other hand and throw in the garbage, because I understood the spoilage process.   Few people have the real world experience I gained in those two years, though since that time a highly controlled dry aging process has become common in the best of restaurants, and dry aged beef aged as long as 60 days in the low 40's brings a premium price in the finest restaurants.   
     The process I'm toying with is NOT dry aging, and is inherently dangerous only because of botulism which goes into a dormant state they call a spore under harsh conditions.  The spore is not killed at boiling temperatures, hence the need for pressure canning.  Botulism is an anerobic critter, and does not contribute to spoilage in an aerobic environment, not can it live in a low PH (below 4.6).  Note that distilled white vinegar has a PH of about 2.4, so a proper marinade could reduce the PH to the point where it was no longer a threat, and probably leave the meat without an unpleasantly sour flavor.  Sugar and salt, both moderate perception of sourness, so this is a strategy that might be worth investigating.  Spoilage of nearly any type is going to be quickly apparent as inflation of the bag, or by smell and appearance when it is opened.   There are a number of types of botulism bacteria, some of which give off an obvious strong odor, and some of which do not.  This makes detection outside the lab problematic at best.  There really are no "rules of thumb", which is what makes it such an insidious threat.     My neighbor recently bought several cases of canning jars with the intent of canning wild game.   I asked him if he wanted to borrow my pressure canner, and he wanted to know why.   I explained why, and he didn't believe me.    Another neighbor, a very close friend of his, who has owned and operated restaurants since his stint as a navy cook in the early 70's cans meat all the time using water bath.   I had to email several articles to him to get him to believe me.   He lost interest after reading about it.    Amazing that a professional would not know this sort of thing (the restaurateur).   Isn't that part of "basic training"?   

     I will take photos at the end of my experiment.   It won't tell me if the process is "safe" necessarily, but it should give me a good idea as to weather I was able to halt discoloration and spoilage.    I'm going to look for some inexpensive steak today, as I'm headed to town for the day.

                                                                          H.W.

If you've never gotten sick, it might just be because getting contaminated food is rare.  Leafy greens, not meat, are the most common cause of food poisoning, but obviously most salads go down just fine.  It's just a question of weighing the risk against how you like to your food.  Most folks will risk a small chance of vomiting to be able to eat uncooked veggies.  The same folks might agree that following a jelly recipe to the letter is worth avoiding even a tiny chance of dying of botulism.  No point in arguing over whether certain rare/raw foods are worth it.  Everybody's going to have their own assessment of risk vs reward.

I mainly intended to point out that there may be microbes throughout a piece of meat, not just as surface contaminants and that methods of home preservation (including canning and curing) don't rely on simply treating the outside.  Canning is concerned with having the right temp/acidity throughout.  Salting requires the brine/nitrates to penetrate the center of thr meat over weeks.  Air curing requires the center of the meat to dry over months/years.  I don't think vacuum bagging would be any different.

As for botulism, 120C/250F is the oft cited temp for spores.  Not going to happen without an autoclave/pressure cooker.

As for low temp/long exposure, 130F really isn't that hot when you consider many mammalian pathogens have an IDEAL temp near 100F.  The FDA guidelines I found advise not allowing ready to eat foods sit at temps between 70F and 135F for more than 2h, which makes me think 135F is still at the upper limit for growth of some pathogens and probably wouldn't kill them even with prolonged exposure. 

Of course, that might not matter at all if that's how you like your meat and you think your chances of getting contaminated meat are small. 

I agree a meat-in-the-closet experiment probably won't tell you much if you don't know what you're starting or ending with, but I am curious to see some old closet meat photos.  Report back to us.

[Owly055]

     Since we have a microbiologist present, I'd be interested in what observable signs of botulism bacterial growth there are.   I've read that some but not all of the several species produce a foul odor, and some of them not always.   As this is being conducted in a vacuum sealed package  (ordinary foodsaver, not chamber vacuum sealer), I would assume the metabolism of any active bacteria should include gases of some sort, and that will show as inflation, even if very slight.   Properly vacuum sealed packages show no visible air space, the plastic is sucked tight to the meat.  I'm using clear bags rather than metallic mylar bags for obvious reasons.    I have not started the project yet, as I have to put together the large propane / air torch I will use to sear the meat on the surface.  Needless to say this will not preclude any microbes in the air and bag from being put in the bag with the meat.

     The vast majority of microbes in our environment are entirely harmless, or even  beneficial, and I shudder think how many are in our own body.   I've been playing with various microbes since I was a child, mostly yeasts and lactobacillus, and acetobacter, and a few molds other than yeasts.   Currently I have three five live cultures used in producing food and drink.   I have yeast I propagate and use for brewing, and another yeast/lactobacillus culture i use for sourdough, I have a yeast / acetobacter / who knows what all else culture I use for making Kombucha in an open fermentation covered only with cheescloth that's been going for years, a yeast / lactobacillus culture that makes kefir, and a mold culture that produces tempeh.  I also have a bag of Chinese Yeast Balls that include a mold that breaks down the starch in rice by producing fungal amylase, and a yeast that ferments it in a combined, perhaps symbiotic (depending on your definition of the word) process.   I also have ordinary bread yeast, and several dry and solution yeast cultures of various of the Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces families.   I've also propagated my own wild yeast cultures in various ways and experimented with "slanting" cultures to isolate the various different yeasts in it....... and Oops, I have two jars of vinegar fermenting, one is a red wine vinegar, and the other a beer vinegar, so there's another acetobacter culture.
     Other people have pets.....  I have microbes, a veritable menagerie.  At age 61, I've been doing this since I was a child.    I used to peer through my microscope at tiny organism, some darting about aimlessly in a drop of water, others immobilized and stained on a glass slide.   I was making wine at the age of 12, unbeknownst to my parents..... using real wine yeast, and beer a few years later.   I live with so many microbes, that by rights I should be dead ;-)   I've also canned since about the same age, both water bath and pressure canner as appropriate.
     It is unfortunately fairly difficult to find the information I'm looking for with regard to botulism on the net, only the usual and justifiably shrill warnings about safe canning practice, and stuff about symptoms and treatment.   There are bits and pieces, but nothing comprehensive enough to put together a complete enough picture that I feel I could accurately judge if botulism were present.  However, experience shows that there will be some give away.   If we were talking about canned chili in a jar, it would be a far more difficult proposition I think.

                                                                            H.W.

[ralay]

If you want more technical info, do your searches in PubMed or check out PLOS pathogens, the have open access.  I don't think microbiologists are going to be a great source for things like how to decide whether something has bacteria in it just by looking at it/smelling it.  There are lots of articles on detecting botulinum in food, but they all use antibody-based assays, PCR, or a handful of soon to be dead mice. 

Also, like I said, there are a lot of bacteria that can grow anaerobically besides C botulinum.  For most folks, it's just easier to follow guidelines for how to kill everything than it is to try and come up with a low tech method for identifying all the dangerous bacteria. 

[Owly055]

If you want more technical info, do your searches in PubMed or check out PLOS pathogens, the have open access.  I don't think microbiologists are going to be a great source for things like how to decide whether something has bacteria in it just by looking at it/smelling it.  There are lots of articles on detecting botulinum in food, but they all use antibody-based assays, PCR, or a handful of soon to be dead mice. 

Also, like I said, there are a lot of bacteria that can grow anaerobically besides C botulinum.  For most folks, it's just easier to follow guidelines for how to kill everything than it is to try and come up with a low tech method for identifying all the dangerous bacteria.

Thanks for the reply.  As I don't have the experiment completed........... or even started yet, I have no idea what the end result will be.   I have to assemble the propane torch I intend to use for this.   I have all the components, but not assembled.    In any endeavor of this type, science abandons you for obvious reasons, and you are left with folk lore and your own instincts.  Folk lore is notoriously inaccurate, and often grossly misleading.    A case in point is kombucha, where it is almost universally believed that the pellicle, called the "mother" or "mushroom" is responsible for producing the product.   People carefully separate the layers, and return a single layer to their brew, giving their friends "mothers" or "scoby's" (symbiotic colony of yeast and bacteria).   It's almost laughable, and the fact that they are so devoted to their beliefs that it's almost a religion is a testament something........ perhaps humanities determination to cling to ignorance in the face or reason???   I don't know.   In any case the task of sorting the wheat from the chaff when it comes to folklore is one I've been faced with many times.
     The subjective results of this experiment may come within a few days, or they may come in February......... note that I said "subjective".   I am as are most people, aware of the many indicators of spoilage, most of which are observable.  Spoilage, decomposition, rotting, etc, are all bio processes.   They do not happen without living organism being involved, and living organisms leave traces of their metabolic processes.   They consume "food" and excrete waste of some sort.

     I submit that if it looks wholesome, smells wholesome, and shows no detectable signs of any sort of decomposition, chances are it is wholesome.  Unfortunately a single case does not confirm anything.    If, as is most likely, there are signs of decomposition, it's fair to say that the experiment has had a "negative outcome".  It didn't work.   On the other hand if the experiment has a positive outcome, and all indicators suggest a wholesome product, I can't call the experiment a "success".  I can only say "it worked this time".   I will not know how repeatable it is.  I can do it 100 times or 1000 times..... or a 1000,000 times, and by the very nature of the experiment, I can never say "this is a safe procedure"...... ever.   I understand that much. 
     Humans have 5 or 6 or more senses, and in the end, short wave length electron microscopy is not one of those senses.  Sight is impressive to say the least, and it's ability to interact with the motor controls to incredible precision is nothing short of amazing.  I drive roads that are obscenely narrow... 10 feet from the center line to the gravel, at amazing speeds, often driving trucks that are 8' wide, meeting oncoming traffic at converging speeds of as much as 160 mph with mere feet to spare between us.   And I've NEVER had an accident in well over 40 years of driving, though I often drive on packed snow or ice at speeds that seem unreasonable....... but I think far in advance of wher I am.    The human nose is an incredible chemical analysis device.  I can tell you for example what family of plastics is being burned or heated, in a heartbeat, and countless other things.  When you get right down to it, the tool set we have to deal with the world around us is downright stunning....... and I've only touched on two senses.  Our ancestors depended on these senses, as well as personal judgement to survive.......... and some did not. 

                                                                                           H.W.

[Owly055]

My experiment is underway.   I've singed and bagged 4 small chuck steaks, and at noon tomorrow after 48 hours at 133F, 3 of them will go into the cupboard, and one in the freezer.  I'm doing 4 because someone wants me to send her one, I want one for my own experiment, and I intend to try to get the department of microbiology at the local university to examine the third, though I will not pursue that avenue unless the results are positive as per my observations.

                                                                                   H.W.

[ralay]

Ha!  I like that you're committed to experimenting with it.  Did you take some before pics?  Do bagged steaks float?  Can you use changes in density to detect small amounts of gas production?  Too bad you can't buy some botulism spores to roll your meat in, but I suppose there are good reasons for that. 

[Owly055]

Ha!  I like that you're committed to experimenting with it.  Did you take some before pics?  Do bagged steaks float?  Can you use changes in density to detect small amounts of gas production?  Too bad you can't buy some botulism spores to roll your meat in, but I suppose there are good reasons for that.

     That's an interesting concept......... Both actually.   Bagged steaks do not float.   Botulism is found in honey, and is probably in spore form within honey because it could not exist in active form in that environment due to osmotic pressure.  The spores if they are on the surface of the meat should have been killed by the brief exposure to my high powered propane torch at well in excess of 3000F.   This isn't a little bottle torch, it is similar to a weed burner, but far more sophisticated with the ability to tune the flame to peak temp.  The nozzle is 2" diameter.   
     The experiment is now under way with 3 small steaks in the cupboard, and one in the freezer.  They are chuck steak, and were processed for 48 hours at 133F.  No signs of deterioration yet in my daily examinations.  They are stored in a warm dark location.    I will attempt after the 90 day incubation period, to interest someone in the microbiology department of a local university in examining one of them.

                                                                        H.W.

[ralay]

The funniest part of being a TA for microbiology courses is that undergrads started gifting me really nasty things out of the back of their refrigerators.  I guess they were thinking, "DARN this is gross!  Hey, wait.  You know who likes germs?  Ms. Lay!  Imma save her this."  It was...charming. 

[CharlieJ]

 ;D  ::)

[Phantom Jim]

Charley J:  Eat those older jar of meat at home where you have better control.  We can meats before each cruise and never finish all the canned meats while we are out.  The shelf life of home canned meats is years if properly canned and stored cool and dark.  Just remember to discard anything suspicious and always boil for at least 10 minutes.  Waste is a sin!