Best small boat for small family.

[Fetzu]

Hey there everyone,

We are new to this forum, and sailing in general. We are looking to get a sailing boat for our family to learn on, preferably one that can do some coastal sailing. We have found a lovely HAIDA 26, a Whiting 29, and a West Sail 32, all cheap enough for us to not feel too much buyers regret when we realise we have purchased the wrong vessel. With that in mind, does anyone have any thoughts about these three, or any others that might be readily available here in New Zealand? We have 3 children (6, 8 and 10) and we homeschool. We live rural in a small riverside cottage, so do not have much trouble living close quarters (the 6 and 10 share a bed), so a smaller boat is of no big issue for now. In time, we would love to learn enough to sail with other boats across to other Pacific Islands close by. Any advice, thoughts or even raised eyebrows will be gladly accepted  :)

[CharlieJ]

First- welcome to SailFar

As to the boats, the only one i know a thing about is the Westsail 32. I have 3 friends who own them and they are very happy with  the boats. Not a lightweight by any means, but very roomy and comfortable. Would be a good choice for ocean sailing in the future

[Fetzu]

Hey there CharlieJ, thanks for the reply.

The only downside to the Westsail is it has screwed teak deck boards. The teak is badly weathered, which is not. good sign for what might be under. I will hopefully do a visit on all boats in the next couple of weeks. Let's hope one of these are what we are after!

Whetu

[Captain Smollett]

I can't comment about the specific boats you are looking at, but I will say this.  As one who has lived on a sailfar sized boat for three years with wife and two children, aged 3 and 6 when we moved aboard, I salute you with your goals and your approach to reach them.

Children LOVE living aboard!  You'll face some challenges but you'll have a ton of fun, too.  They will remember it forever.   8)

We figured we had 2 adults, 2 children and a cat in about 150 sq ft of living space.  We miss it and the children speak fondly of those times.

[CharlieJ]

My friends James and Rachel, who used to post here (w00dy and Raylay) . stripped the leaking teak off their 32 and replaced with glass with no skid. They claim it was worth it. I had the chance to visit in Maine and sail aboard.

[CapnK]

Welcome aboard, Fetzu!

I will need to research the other two, but I'm with Charlie (or 'CJ' as we call him here :) ) that the Westsail is a tried and true offshore boat, with a lot of fans and a good reputation as a boat that *will* get you there, if not speedily. :)

[Fetzu]

Thank you everyone for the advice. I am indeed moving towards a Westsail.

I am also trawling through several other forums, and getting advice from local yachting friends, and more formal brokers and sailors. I am sure this is nothing new to all of you, but the difference of opinions (experienced based and professional) is HUGE!

I have some saying that I will not be able to try sailing off coast without a NZD$100K+ yacht, and others that say I could do it in a 20 footer if I have the right setup and am not trying to circumnavigate NZ. We are reluctant to spend too much on a first boat, as we are sure our experience will inform us of more suitable boats for our family, sailing style and travel. I am glad this forum exists, as it is actively confronting the barriers in both size and costs, but I am sure there must be a general idea from people in this forum of realistic boat sizes and costs.

We live in a riverside cottage, happily, with all three kids sharing one room, and me on the couch. My wife lives in a CBD unit in Wellington, other end of NZ's North Island (works govt), and flies up every fortnight for a long weekend. We homeschool, and we spend a lot of time living out of our suitcases as we jump at any opportunities that are good for us. We often travel the length of the North Island for one event or another.

In short, we def do not live the average family 9-5 house life, and are confident we do not need a 'house-on-a-hull', but rather a tiny tiny home that we can safely learn in and hopefully build experience in so we can make more decisions later on down the track.

Soo.. Are we being completely silly with a budget of NZD$30-50K, 26'-40' monohull, 3 kids, two adults, and essentially learning the finer points of sailing as we go? (we have spent time very occasionally sailing over the years)

If so, what are your thoughts on the matter?

As always, thank you for all your help, looking forward to meeting people from here in the future!

Whetu

[Captain Smollett]

Soo.. Are we being completely silly with a budget of NZD$30-50K, 26'-40' monohull, 3 kids, two adults, and essentially learning the finer points of sailing as we go? (we have spent time very occasionally sailing over the years)

Not even a little bit silly.  This site exists to counteract the myth that one needs huge piles of cash to sail after your dreams.

30-50k is a more than most of us would expect to spend on a *good* sailfar boat, at least if willing to do some work to bring 'er up to snuff.  30-35 ft is an awesome sweet spot, especially while your children are young/small.

Also, I think you are being very wise to think that your first boat may not be your "long term" boat.  Knowing what you don't know and that you will learn and your sailing will evolve is more than half the battle.  I think too many people try to find "perfect" on first try and without personal experience with specific boats, that may well be impossible.

Someone around here likes to say "Don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough."  Good advice from the Capn of Sailfar.

Good luck and now GO SAILING!  Get on those boats and see what they "feel" like to you.  Trust your instincts.  You'll know when it's "right" at least for "now."

[Fetzu]

Thank you all for your advice!

We have one nagging question that has been born out of our decision to go with the West Sail 32. However a couple of things have popped up. Without going into too much detail, what would all you feel is the best route of action:

Buying the West Sail 32 and spending 3 - 9 months getting it ready to sail (no sails, needs new rigging/chainplates etc..) while living on it. Rent would be relatively cheap (same as the unit we are in at the moment), and we would have a rig we can be certain of, and it has the huge 50HP engine.

OR

Buying a Haida 26, which is fully equiped to sail immediately (1 year old sails, roller furler head sail, new standing and running rigging), can still live on it, but 6 whole feet less, and a ~10HP Yanmar (reconditioned 6 months ago).

The core question is, will learning to sail in the Haida 26 for a year or two transfer easy to a West Sail 32/42 down the track, or would it be better to spend a few months getting the West Sail up to sailing capable and then concentrate on building our sailing skills with her. Keep in mind our kids are 6, 8, and 10 and we would like to leave for the blue as soon as we are competently trained. We will live full-time on either boat, and be spending the next year minimum sailing her daily around New Zealand to build our skills up, so the training will be pretty focused.

Let us know what you think.

Cheers
Whetu

[Captain Smollett]

The core question is, will learning to sail in the Haida 26 for a year or two transfer easy to a West Sail 32/42 down the track,

In all the important ways, sailing is sailing with one key exception that I can think of.  If a boat sails very poorly, that is, doesn't handle weather / seas well, you won't "enjoy" being out learning, so you won't learn.

With that one caveat, I think getting time of the water in various conditions is the best trainer.  You don't need to learn on the exact boat you will ultimately Sail Far on.

or would it be better to spend a few months getting the West Sail up to sailing capable and then concentrate on building our sailing skills with her.

There is a ton of value in the refitting process.  You will learn your boat, your boat's systems, how things work together in addition to what is there, etc.

But ultimately this is a personal choice without one, single "best" answer.  There are a lot of people that would counsel "whatever gets you on the water soonest" and that's fair advice.  As you said, your first boat does not need to be your ultimate boat.

Keep in mind our kids are 6, 8, and 10 and we would like to leave for the blue as soon as we are competently trained.

I looked up the Haida 26 and am unfamiliar with your local cruising grounds.  So, some thoughts:

(a) It's a nice looking boat, for what that's worth.   ;)
(b) Motion Comfort Ratio is a bit lower and Capsize Screening Ratio is a bit higher than what most would LIKE to see in a bluewater boat, but it looks like there is nothing the moves it out of the "coastal cruiser" category.
(c) Didn't see a cabin layout, so can't comment on that.

So,

We will live full-time on either boat, and be spending the next year minimum sailing her daily around New Zealand to build our skills up, so the training will be pretty focused.

I see nothing wrong with this plan for either boat, so long as you recognize the potential "comfort in rough conditions" limitations of the smaller boat and plan accordingly.

Just to throw some specifics into the mix, we use an 18 ft trailer sailor for "coastal" sailing with MCR and CSR numbers outside the "bluewater ideal" range and have a TON of fun doing so.  Even have had 'er "outside the jetties" in *very good* weather for a bit of close-in island hopping type sailing.

Sorry if I'm not being specifically helpful; I think the choice is going to be based on what your "gut" is telling you. I can see it both ways.  If getting on the water and starting your "training" is a high priority, the Haida looks attractive.  Just be realistic where her limitations might lie, don't ask her to do something she may not be all that good at. 

Being realistic about the boat you have will increase your odds of having positive experiences rather than "epic terror fests."  Then with greater confidence in your skill and faith in your goals, you can "upgrade" later from a position of experience.

--John

[Godot]

I don't know anything about a Haida. but a very quick search turned up some positive comments. They've apparently crossed oceans, so the numbers aside (the much discussed CSF is still below 2.0, which is often the cutoff on open ocean races), it appears they are a reasonably seaworthy choice. Again...very, very quick search.

So, based on you being new to sailing, I think I'd suggest the Haida if you are reasonably sure your family would be comfortable onboard.

Reasons: Until you spend time sailing, how do you know if you LIKE sailing! And, even if you love sailing, you won't really know what you want in a boat until you can spend time actually sailing. Get the boat you can sail right now. I can pretty much promise you that the Westsail is going to take far longer, and way more money, to prepare than you think. A refit, especially while living aboard, can be a dream killer.

Don't worry about the engine size. Yanmars are solid. 10HP should be plenty fine for a 26', 4700# boat. My Yanmar is 13/15hp and my boat is nearly twice as heavy as the Haida, so you should be ok.

Most likely the smaller boat is going to be a bit more lively. This is not a bad thing when learning. Ideally, you'd have a little sailing dinghy as well. Best way to learn, IMHO.

Really, the only drawback (and it is a big drawback for a family) I see to the smaller boat is that it is smaller. Way smaller. Not just six feet shorter. But 2 1/2' narrower (2.5' of beam probably makes more difference than the 6 feet of length) and 15 thousand pounds less displacement. That means that you aren't just volume limited, but every pound you throw on the boat is going to affect performance more. The Westsail is most likely going to be much, much more comfortable for living aboard, and will handle a lot of stuff being thrown onboard. It will likely have a much more usable galley, bigger head, more tankage, and way, way more stowage. Have you actually stepped aboard the boats to see how they feel? I don't think you can understand the size difference without actually stepping aboard.

So, again, choose the Haida, IF (and only if) you really, really think you'd be able to fit OK with reasonable comfort, and if you think the livelier motion won't be too much for the family. You should be able to move to another boat without too much of a learning curve later on if you want to.

I know the market in NZ is different than here in the USA; but maybe keep an eye on the listings. Perhaps something more of a compromise between small & ready and bigger & needing work will pop up. Also...keep in mind that while listings often look great, the actual boat frequently is not up to expectations. Actually, in my experience, boats tend to rarely be in the condition listed. But maybe I'm just unlucky.

[Captain Smollett]

(the much discussed CSF is still below 2.0, which is often the cutoff on open ocean races)

Not to go off the rails, but just to clarify: the value I saw was slightly greater than 2.0.

My point in bringing it up along with my experience on a boat also with a CSR > 2.0 was that one can still have safe, fun adventures.  It's not a hard cut-off or an automatic "no" by any stretch of the imagination.

That is: "Some will see these numbers for a boat they've never sailed and automatically conclude 'no' for a cruiser; I disagree with that assessment."

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was trying to say, and I don't want the OP to think I was railing down the Haida on the basis of theoretical numbers.

I do agree with the notion that the only way a sailor will know if a boat's capabilities suit him is to sail that boat to see.

And, even if you love sailing, you won't really know what you want in a boat until you can spend time actually sailing.

100% spot on.

[Godot]

You didn't say much about the Whiting 29. That might be a decent compromise. It looks reasonably roomy inside with 60% more displacement; but with less of the shear mass of the Westsail. If it's in good condition it would be worth looking at.

boatName=Whiting 29
LOA=29.25
LWL=24.28
beam=10.25
displacement=7500
sailArea=426
displacementToLWL=234
speed=6.6
sailAreaToDisplacement=17.79
LWLToBeam=2.37
motionComfort=20.11
capsizeRatio=2.09
category=cruiser/racer
ppi=889

The capsize ratio might bother some people. It doesn't me. If you get broadside by a big enough breaking wave, you are likely to capsize. You probably will never see one of these waves. The capsize screening formula is a quick and dirty (and quite controversial) way of determining your likelyhood of coming back rightside. It is really unlikely, especially while learning, that you are going to put yourself in a position where this will matter. Lots of people cross oceans with numbers higher than this. It's not that easy to capsize a keelboat.

[Godot]

Not to go off the rails, but just to clarify: the value I saw was slightly greater than 2.0.

My point in bringing it up along with my experience on a boat also with a CSR > 2.0 was that one can still have safe, fun adventures.  It's not a hard cut-off or an automatic "no" by any stretch of the imagination.

That is: "Some will see these numbers for a boat they've never sailed and automatically conclude 'no' for a cruiser; I disagree with that assessment."

Perhaps I was not clear in what I was trying to say, and I don't want the OP to think I was railing down the Haida on the basis of theoretical numbers.

I do agree with the notion that the only way a sailor will know if a boat's capabilities suit him is to sail that boat to see.

Funny, I was just typing up something on the Whiting and threw in a little CSR rant. It's all about the timing.

[CapnK]

Sounds like to me that you have the wiggle room in your budget to get the Westsail, live on her and afford to get her in shape, while also...

(drumroll, please...) ;)

Getting a small, say 12-15' open sailing dinghy/boat with which to begin learning the sailing part of things. Something used (and thus cheap) and popular (for eventual resale), and which is known to be beginner-friendly, easy to handle. Ideally, a Bermudian rig with a jib - so that you have basically the same strings to pull on, as you eventually will have on your Westsail when she is ready.
That way, when the Westy is ready to go, you and your family will have a much better understanding of what to do when and why, than otherwise.

As far as the Westsail, vs the Haidu, vs the Whiting - now that I have looked at all 3 - I'd say without a doubt - go for the Westsail...
Note:*Only and first pending a survey by a good surveyor*, as of the 830 WS hulls made, approx one-half of them were in kit form, so it could be expected that the quality of build/scantlings may vary on one of these to the point of unacceptability, which a surveyor should be able to spot for you.
That said, and assuming she is a good one -

My Reasonings:

Size: Sure, it's possible for 5 to live in a smaller boat, it's been done, by say Dave and Jaja Martin - but they didn't *start* that way. They started as just 2 "older kids" in a 25'er for a while, and then they slowly added on a baby at a time over several years until they got to 5, and eventually when their kids grew up and got bigger, they went up to a 33'er.
Your kids are already near or at the age when their bodies begin enlarging to the point of needing their own adult-sized berth & space. :) You are coming into this way of life with them like that already, and no prior experience. This is important because of things like, for instance, rainy weather.
In a small cabin ashore, you come in and everything is dry and warm and you shed your rain gear and have plenty of room for it to drip dry off to the side while you go on about your life.
But even a very small cabin on land is much larger than a biggish boat.
In fact, I tell people I live in a house the size of a walk-in closet, and a closet which is pointy at one end, at that. :)
So dealing with things like wet rain gear is that much more, well, maybe not "difficult", but 'involved' is probably a better word, due to the lack of space inside our wee boats.
Think of the 4 or 5 of you coming in out of the rain into that large closet, and then shuffling around and getting out of wet gear and finding a place to put it all while it dries which will also allows you to get some meal preparation done while the kids play a game or do their homework or whatever...
Yeah. :)
As a whole, I think your family will be much more comfortable in the relatively roomier Whiting or the Westsail.

Which leads to - Other Stuff to Consider. :)

Only 50 Whitings were ever built, vs the over 800 Westsails. Thus, my impression is that the Whiting is relatively an "unknown", and so would carry less value outside of the 'local' market where those hulls were produced.
Whereas pretty much anyone anywhere can type "Westsail 32" into a web browser and find TONS of info on them, along with relative values, and the overwhelming consensus that they are a solid, seaworthy boat that'll get you where you need to go, if not in any hurry. :)

So, as you already know your first boat may well not be your last boat, resale/value is definitely something to keep in mind, I would think. The Westsail has certain "timeless qualities" which means they are always sought after in the market.
in other words - You'll *always* be able to find a buyer for a Westsail, wherever you are.

The one thing I can say which the Whiting has over the Westsail, is cockpit space. Put an enclosure on your cockpit, and you near-double the available out-of-the-weather room in your "house".

But then the Whiting has deadlights (non-opening windows) as opposed to the opening ports typically found on Westsails. Sail in warm places and that is gonna make a difference in interior ventilation. Being able to get a breeze below on a hot day makes all the difference in the world!

Last - displacement - in the last 15 years, I have lived aboard boats ranging from 5 to 15 thousand pounds, and a 15 thousand pound boat won't notice the small waves which will make the 5 jump about like a pony. :) You could say that more displacement means more comfort, and rarely be wrong.

So - all in all - Westsail gets my vote for you.

That's my $0.02, or the NZ equivalent. :)