Covid Vaccination

[Owly055]

Omicron being apparently fairly "harmless" as far as anybody has observed so far, is probably the most dangerous variant yet because of that.  People are quickly concluding that the virus will naturally evolve to be less dangerous.  Nothing could be further from the truth!   Mutations are RANDOM.   The result of Omicron will be that people will say "see, I told you so", and forego vaccination.  It's ability to overcome immunity, and people's attitude toward it, will create a much larger pool of infected people, increasing mutations...which are constant and random in viruses.   Survival or death of the victim is essentially of zero consequence to the virus in the evolutionary sense.   
     It  has been suggested somewhat correctly I think, that Omicron will act like a vaccine.  Minor symptoms.... fatigue, sore muscles, headache.    Your body will develop antibodies to it which may give resistance to future mutations.............. But how much protection is this actually.    Look at colds and flu.    Like Omicron itself, the virus will continue to mutate, and eventually overcome this resistance.   Viral mutation is rapid and constant due to the very short generations (hours) compared to animals.   A compressed snapshot of evolution.

                                                                                                              H.W.

[Jim_ME]

I had read this information [about] the booster doses from the website such as this CDC one...

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/booster-shot.html
FAQ:"Are booster shots the same formulation as existing vaccines?
[Answer] Yes. COVID-19 booster shots are the same formulation as the current COVID-19 vaccines. However, in the case of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine booster shot, it is half the dose of the vaccine people get for their primary series."

The WalMart Pharmacist offered a choice of Moderna, Pfizer or J&J. She confirmed that the Moderna was half a regular vaccine dose, but Pfizer was a full dose.

[Edited to add: Looks like they were comparing the booster dose to the vaccine dose, not comparing the strength of the Moderna and Pfizer to each other. I did assume that they were more similar than they apparently are, based on what you have written. If the Moderna is considerably stronger (by volume), that would explain why its booster shot dose has been cut in half.]

If they had only offered the Moderna booster, I would have been content with that, too.

[Norman]

 :)  Booster done here, Pfizer, tired easily next day, then normal.

One of Shirley's distant relatives has died of Covid in Missouri.  Many of her relatives out there are antivax, so most of the people that I know who have been infected are out there.

I still compare the vaccine to seat belts.  I installed seat belts in my first new car, when they were not a factory available option, and used them ALL the time.  Today, they are mandatory in all cars, and use is required, but I know people who sit on theirs.  Coincidentally, they are antivaxxers.  :-[

Before the election, Harris and Pelosi were the prime drivers of the idea that the "Unsafe Trump vaccine" should be avoided, and we should wait for a "conventional" and safe vaccine.  Now both are demanding that as good citizens, we MUST get vaccinated with that same vaccine.  ::)

No "conventional vaccine" is even in the works for a safe rollout in 3 to 5 years.

Trump himself, the sitting president while the new vaccine was invented, downplayed its use, as "healthy people had natural immunity", and he himself had survived.  He ignored that the drugs he received were in very short supply, slow to manufacture, and well beyond the financial reach of ordinary citizens.  >:(

Thus, three of our most prominent political leaders have been well publicized antivaxxers.  When our political leaders in both parties lie to us for their own parties short term advantage, it is understandable that the public is truly confused and miss led.  >:(

And the vaxxers will be more likely to survive.  ;D

All that just MY opinion, you are welcome to a different one of your own.  We will each live with what our choice brings to us.

[Owly055]

:)  Booster done here, Pfizer, tired easily next day, then normal.

One of Shirley's distant relatives has died of Covid in Missouri.  Many of her relatives out there are antivax, so most of the people that I know who have been infected are out there.

I still compare the vaccine to seat belts.  I installed seat belts in my first new car, when they were not a factory available option, and used them ALL the time.  Today, they are mandatory in all cars, and use is required, but I know people who sit on theirs.  Coincidentally, they are antivaxxers.  :-[

Before the election, Harris and Pelosi were the prime drivers of the idea that the "Unsafe Trump vaccine" should be avoided, and we should wait for a "conventional" and safe vaccine.  Now both are demanding that as good citizens, we MUST get vaccinated with that same vaccine.  ::)

No "conventional vaccine" is even in the works for a safe rollout in 3 to 5 years.

Trump himself, the sitting president while the new vaccine was invented, downplayed its use, as "healthy people had natural immunity", and he himself had survived.  He ignored that the drugs he received were in very short supply, slow to manufacture, and well beyond the financial reach of ordinary citizens.  >:(

Thus, three of our most prominent political leaders have been well publicized antivaxxers.  When our political leaders in both parties lie to us for their own parties short term advantage, it is understandable that the public is truly confused and miss led.  >:(

And the vaxxers will be more likely to survive.  ;D

All that just MY opinion, you are welcome to a different one of your own.  We will each live with what our choice brings to us.

The political comments in this post ( Pelosi / Harris) are considerably less than accurate as you can find out from sites like Snopes and news sites that publish accurate news.   

Politics has no place on this forum, particularly when filtered through Faux news.

Here is a link to a Newsweek piece that puts things in the proper perspective:   https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaccine-covid-trust-skepticism-democrat-politicization-1535559

                                                                      H.W.

[Norman]

I am criticizing both parties and the key spokespersons here.  I am not implying that either party is doing better.  Snopes may say that the politicians did not say what I heard them say, but Newsweek printed otherwise.

Some quotes from the "Relatively reliable source", NEWSWEEK, you posted:

Green is my emphasis, showing how much the political posturing hurt the public perception of the vaccine.





Kennedy, a lawyer and prominent anti-vaccine activist, said that around the middle of Augustâ€"when the Trump administration began suggesting a vaccine may be ready before the November 3 electionâ€"Democratic leaders started voicing skepticism about the development process for the first time. And concerns about the speed at which vaccines are being developed, and the potential for their release via Emergency Use Authorization (EUA,) have now been raised by many political leaders.

"[Politicization is] causing enormous problems with public trust," he told Newsweek, adding that Trump is not even communicating with his own best interests in mind. "He shoots from the hip all the time… He does a lot to undermine his own case. Starting with the name Operation Warp Speed. [That] would not have been my choice for the name of a program if I was strategically trying to get people's confidence."

At the start of September, Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris said she would not trust President Donald Trump's word alone that any vaccine developed is safe and efficient.
A week later, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden made similar remarks during a speech in Delaware, saying, "I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don't trust Donald Trump."
Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi, Democratic speaker of the United States House of Representatives, has said any vaccine must meet safety standards before being released if it is to be accepted by the public.


According to a survey from the Pew Research Center carried out between September 8 and 13, half of U.S. adults now say they probably or definitely would not get a vaccine to prevent COVID-19, if it were available today.
While vaccine skepticism was still higher among Republicansâ€"as it has been historicallyâ€"there was a marked increase among Democrats. In May, 50 percent said they would "definitely" get the vaccine. By September, this had fallen to 24 percent.

"What's uniting many people are concerns that this potentially fast-tracked, liability-free vaccine will be mandated to return to normal life," she said. "Having top Democrat leaders raise these questions has given an even greater voice to the concerns shared by many who believe in sound science, safe vaccines, and industry accountability."


Not a political argument of who is right or wrong, just an explanation of why so many people in each party have a resistance to vaccination.  During the summer, the Democrats were saying that a safe, tested vaccine could not be ready for at least another year.

I have a friend who was a lifelong Democrat, who will not get the 'Trump' vaccine.

I wonder why some people believe that Trump actually had anything to do with the vaccine?

[Godot]

Yesterday evening, I got my vaccine booster at my local WalMart Superstore. I had read that the Moderna was only a half regular vaccine dose, but the Pfizer brand was a whole dose. Since I only had the wimpy J&J VAX, I chose Pfizer.

So the helpful and knowledgeable pharmacy associate gave me the shot, and let me go shopping without even sitting around for 15 minutes.

Everything was okay last night.

But when I got up this morning...

Now I like power boats. ???

You were told wrong........Actually the Moderna and Pfizer are essentially the same active ingredient, but the Moderna has many times the quantity of the active ingredient...An MRNA messenger molecule that programs cells to produce the spike protein.  The only real difference is the lipid used to carry it.  This is all documented, but I cannot give you the reference as I don't save that sort of thing.   I believe the figure was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 times as much.

I don't think he is wrong at all. Moderna has one dose for the first and second shots, and a half dose for the Booster. Pfizer is the same dose for one, two and booster.

I've had the shots. I've been boosted. pfizer. Day one was fine. Day two on each had me sick for five or six hours to the point where I couldn't leave the couch, after which I rapidly and completely recovered. Nothing like the scary experience my wife had with the J&J vaccine. She boosted with Pfizer and had zero symptoms.

I'm done being afraid of this virus. I'll dutifully take my shots, at least for now. I'll wear a mask where it is required (work, sadly, even though I rarely come in close contact with anyone there). I, honestly, don't really believe masks, especially the silly cloth masks everyone wears, to be particularly effective; but even if they are, I'm simply no longer willing to voluntarily wear them. I am otherwise going on about my life, because I'd rather take a bullet than live the life our psychopathic elected elites seem to want us to live.

Life is risky. I've known some older, sick people (one an 80 year old diabetic with Leukemia, and my Uncle who frankly ruined his body with out of control alcoholism) who have died. I've known a couple folks who have had it and describe it as being like a really bad flu, the worst they've ever experienced. I've known maybe a dozen who had it but barely noticed (if contact tracing didn't force them to get tested, many probably wouldn't have bothered). And if I don't miss my guess, I probably know people who have had it and never even noticed. We've been affected by it at work, and have had to deal with minimal staffing as a result. None who ended up sick or quarantined reported anything serious.

So...add it to the list of things that may (but probably won't) kill me some day. The list is already long. I'm done caring.

[Jim_ME]

I think that Owly was saying that the pharmacist was telling me something that was wrong. It may not have been [in the particular sense of the term "dose" that she meant], but it may have had the effect of being misleading to me, because of my assumption that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine doses were of similar strength (or active ingredient). I assumed this because both were two-dose vaccinations, and had similar reports of efficacy from the clinical trials (I believe over 90% on the initial Covid-19 strain).

I guess, technically, I asked the wrong question. I should have asked which booster had the most strength [active ingredient]. If the Moderna vaccine dose has three times the active ingredient as the Pfizer, even though it was cut in half for the booster, that should still be 1.5 times that of the Pfizer ["full dose" booster]. I didn't know this, and even the pharmacist may not have--had I asked the right question.

I mainly wanted to [avoid] repeating the situation where I had gotten the J&J, since the advice [at that time] was that "the best vaccine type is the one that is [first] offered you", and then find out that it lost enough of its efficacy after only two months to warrant a booster, whereas either the Pfizer or Moderna provided protection for 6 months [and this time may also have been reduced as new variants emerged that the vaccines were not as effective against].

[Jim_ME]

Last thing before bed, I happened to read this story that touches on some of the issues of lack of trust that have been raised in previous posts, from the perspective of a compassionate ER nurse. I found it very sincere and moving, and hopefully worth reading, whatever your position may be on this subject.

[Norman]

Outstanding link, Jim_ME, Shirley just lost an unvaccinated cousin, and
has a vaccinated cousin recovering even though he has the equivalent to black lung disease.  He is suffering from pneumonia, but improving.  Without the vaccine, the Covid would have been much more severe, and he would almost certainly be gone.

Both cousins are related by marriage, not genetic, but in this case, that is immaterial.

The before and after pictures of "Uncle John" were quite compelling.

[Jim_ME]

Norman, Condolences to you and your wife on the loss of her cousin. Best wishes to the cousin who is recovering.

[Owly055]

Sorry for your loss......... I've lost 4 friends so far, no relatives, and a large percentage of the people I interact with daily have had covid.  Many are contemptuous of the vaccine... thanks to Faux News, and Facebook.   A friend of mine who is very religious was horrified when I told her that I had gotten the vax and booster as soon as it was available.... Her opinion was that faith would protect her..... how stupid can you get?    I related the parable about the man who believed God would protect him as his neighborhood flooded.  He refused evacuation by car, then by boat (from the second floor), then helicopter (from the roof).... and of course drowned.   He was very upset when he got to heaven, and had words with God, who said "I gave you three chances... what more do you want?"   The same applies to Covid.  God WILL protect you, but you have to accept that the "miracle" you are looking for may not be a dramatic old testament miracle....... The vaccine itself, and the capability to create it and produce it is the miracle God has provided, not some evil conspiracy.   

[Owly055]

While I do NOT advocate intentional or careless exposure to Covid or any other disease, this article that I found on Yahoo News has reached exactly the conclusion I reached a long time ago.   That exposure fairly soon after vaccination acts as a booster and will increase your resistance.   Omicron with it's apparently mild symptoms may be a blessing in this sense....... though the huge number of cases means that the probability of more mutations, and possibly more dangerous mutations is increased.  It is a mistake to conclude that the virus will become less dangerous through it's evolution.    There is an evolutionary advantage to the ability to overcome immunity, but no advantage or disadvantage related to how deadly it beomes for practical purposes.    Using reasonable caution .... masking when among large numbers of people, and generally avoiding crowded situations is no hardship to me..... I don't like crowds anyway.



Full vaccination against COVID-19 and a breakthrough infection builds 'super immunity,' study finds

Elizabeth Weise
Fri, December 17, 2021, 4:02 AM·3 min read

A study by Oregon researchers finds that people fully vaccinated against COVID-19 who have a breakthrough infection end up with what the authors call "super immunity."

They caution the vaccinated should not seek COVID-19 infection, but the "hybrid immunity" offers some solace for those who catch one despite having been vaccinated.

"The bottom line of the study is that vaccine provides you with foundational immunity for whatever comes next," said Fikadu Tafesse, a professor of molecular microbiology and immunology in the Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine in Portland, Oregon.

The study matched 26 vaccinated Oregon Health & Science University staff people who had breakthrough infections with a similar group who were vaccinated but hadn't had COVID-19.

The people who were vaccinated and then got COVID-19 showed a substantial increase in antibody levels, said Tafesse.

"The increases were substantial, up to a 1,000% increase and sometimes up to 2,000%, so it's really high immunity," he said. "It's almost 'super immunity.'"
Multiple other studies have shown that infection with COVID-19 followed by one dose of the vaccine is very protective against re-infection.

“This is one of the first that shows a breakthrough infection following vaccination generates stronger immunity than prior infection or vaccination alone,” said Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease expert at the University of California, San Francisco.

While possibly equally protective, the reverse order is not recommended. Getting COVID-19 before being vaccinated is dangerous because “we cannot predict who will get very ill with COVID,” Gandhi said.

As the highly contagious omicron variant continues to spread in the United States, the findings will be of interest to many, and "is likely what the future will hold for most vaccinated individuals," Gandi said.

Omicron appears to be able to infect even fully vaccinated people, though they so far appear to come down with mild or even asymptomatic cases of COVID-19.

"What we're saying is, we know life happens. If you happen to be exposed to the virus, you'll have this amazing immune response," Tafesse said. "It mirrors the immunity response we get to the booster."

The finding shows what a good job the immune system does, said Shane Crotty, a professor at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California.

Every time the immune system sees the vaccine or the virus, it is learning more and better able to fight it and potential other variants.

“This is what the immune system evolved to do, to make guesses from something it’s been exposed,” he said.

There is some information being spread online claiming that getting vaccinated after having recovered from COVID-19 is dangerous because it could overstimulate the immune system.

"That's completely made up, it's total rubbish," said Crotty. "It was tested in all the vaccine trials. Getting vaccinated after COVID-19 exposure is totally safe."

Getting a booster is still safer than getting COVID-19, said Dr. Gregory Poland, director of the Mayo Clinic's Vaccine Research Group, particularly for those at risk for severe disease, including those over 70, people with diabetes and those with weakened immune systems.

"Best is getting three doses of an mRNA vaccine and never getting infected. Complications, including long COVID and transmission to others, represent a risk even in that scenario," Poland said.

He offered a hierarchy of safety:

    Best scenario: Fully vaccinated and boosted, no infection upon exposure

    Next best: Fully vaccinated, boosted and asymptomatic or mild disease upon exposure/infection

    Next best: Fully vaccinated, boosted, moderate disease and attendant complication risks upon infection

    Worse: not fully vaccinated or boosted and risk severe disease/death and its risks upon infection

For those who have had COVID-19 and don't think they need to get vaccinated, Crotty suggested thinking of it another way.

"If you get at least one dose of vaccine, you'll have the best immunity of anyone," he said. "You'll have amazing immunity against omicron and any variant that's been identified."

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: COVID vaccination and previous infection may deliver 'super immunity'