The Short List for Bigger Boat Itis

[CharlieJ]

While I must agree that the Triton is a great boat,  take a look at the performance calculator-

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

And compare the Folkboat with the Seafarer Meridian. It's really interesting how closely the two match up.

The Triton of course is 3 feet longer than either. The Pearson Ariel however, IS a quite close matchup to both the other 25 footers, and a helluva a sailboat..

[CapnK]

Right on, CJ.

These old boats from the 'old school' are basically designs that were tested, refined, and proven over a lo-o-ong time, then rendered what was at the time the latest technologically advanced materials. The best of both worlds, as it were.

Not to say that newer boats aren't any good, I don't intend that at all.

Just that Rhodes/Alberg/Shaw et al were drawing boats at a time fortuitous for blending of the two mediums, like CJ pointed out. That is an excellent thing, for those of us with that preference. :)

* CapnK hoists a glass, too 8)

[Captain Smollett]

I once read an article in which the 'theory' was proposed that what we think makes a 'beautiful' boat = what makes a strong, seaworthy boat.  The idea was that in the "old days," one saw boats that lasted - a seaworthiness Darwinism if you will.  Over time, these features became 'normal' or even 'pretty.'  Our minds associate certain features, lines and shapes with seaworthiness and strength, and those have gotten translated into beauty.

It was to me an interesting idea.  The article was in Ocean Navigator, iirc, and was about design numbers that have stood the test of time both in terms of real-world lastability and emotional beauty.  Things on the list included sheer ratios, L/D ratios, forefoot and counter overhang ratios, etc.

The upshot is that a LOT of what we think as 'pretty lines' and 'classical looks' on a boat are directly equatable to time-tested, hardcore seaworthiness.  The Albergs, Rhodes and Shaws of the design world may not have been settting out to draw 'pretty' boats so much as 'seaworthy ones,' and to a sailor, nothing is 'prettier' than a boat that will last.

[Norm]

There are some new designs that are making an impact. 

A favorite of mine is the J28.  Only 71 were built.  It is a remarkable in every respect for a small voyaging yacht.  Not a racer but a very good sailing cruising boat.

Elizabeth and I are wondering if we can manage/tolerate the short headroom of an Aphrodite 101.  Sketches and theorys abound.

The shear joy of sailing a good performing boat matters, too.

Is performance on anyone's list of Must Haves?

Norman

[AdriftAtSea]

There's really no point in getting a boat that isn't at least a decent sailing boat...  life is too short for that.

[Captain Smollett]

.

Is performance on anyone's list of Must Haves?

Define performance.

To me, seaworthiness and dependability are the performance factors that matter.  Usually, when I hear the term "performance," I think "speed" is what is meant.  Speed does not really matter to me.  If I have my wife and children on board with me,  I don't care if it takes me an extra day or two to get "there," but I want to have that extra bit in my favor in the odds column of getting there.

John Vigor, the author of "our favorite book," wrote a piece (I think in Small Craft Advisor) a while back about this notion of a faster boat being safer since it can outrun storms and the like.  He laid that 'myth' to rest, and argued quite lucidly that "speed" is perhaps not the key performance number for a voyaging boat. 

As is often the case in engineering, there is a trade-off between "speed" and what most of use mean by "seaworthiness."  The design factors that make a boat 'bulletproof' are generally at odds with those that make a boat 'fast.'  Exceptions certainly exist.

[AdriftAtSea]

Performance, at least for me, includes both speed and the ability to sail to windward.  Fighting your way off of a lee shore is not exactly fun to being with, and trying to do it in a boat that performs poorly to windward is far more work and far more hazardous, especially in the conditions when it is most important to do so.

[Frank]

Performance is a 'relative' word.Different boats perform well to their intended uses. In vehicles...you would not take a sports car off roading or a 4x4 to the race track.That stretch limo sure is nice on the highway,but ya can't dart in and out of busy down town traffic and squeeze into parking spaces like a corolla...A full keel off shore boat ain't no trailor sailor...nor a J24 an ideal offshore boat.True performance is being honest with yourself on how you WILL use your boat most often...do your research and buy the boat that best performs to how you will ACTUALLY sail it.One man's 'performance' ideal is anothers lemon.All boats are 'compromises'....the trick is getting the right compromise for you.

[Cmdr Pete]

I think everybody wishes their boat was faster-or they should.

However, the difference between a fast boat and a slow one of the same size might be a minute per mile. That's not alot, although it does add up.

But, most boats aren't sailed to their potential. Their bottoms are rough and haven't been scrubbed. Sails are poor and badly trimmed. Steering is inattentive, etc. etc.

They just aren't going to sail away from you.

Your boat might not be a greyhound, but don't let her be an old dog.

[Frank]

C Pete...That is a great 'performance' picture and a dam fine lookin vessel !!

[AdriftAtSea]

Pete-  Is that you and your boat???

[Cmdr Pete]

Yeah, that's my 1965 Pearson Commander "Grace" Same hull as the Pearson Ariel.

I do get a certain evil pleasure if I can roll past some weekend warrior in a big boat. Can't help it.

Wouldn't mind hopping on a trimaran some time.

I saw this strange looking craft coming at me a while ago. It got closer fast, and I could see it was an F-31 flying a spinnaker, one ama lifting out of the water. Holy @%&*#--that boat was moving. It was all I could do to get out of his way. Very impressive.

[Frank]

I think the Ariel/commander are exellent compromise boats.Easy to single hand,fairly shallow draft (Keys/bahamas),offshore capable,great motion,fairly fast..very fast on a reach,fairly roomy,pretty,not too expensive.......a LOT is very 'right' about them!! Gotta love Carl...too bad he's not around...boats would be safer and have a 'soul' again

[Dougcan]

Maybe I'm stirring the pot here, but I think I would avoid any IOR boats or to be more exact, any boat designed under the IOR rules.

Is there any reason why I would be wrong?

[Frank]

Are you implying that an ariel is an IOR boat...if so..are you implying you wouldn't want one?? Curious on your thinking??....I'm lacing up the gloves. An Ariel or commander are a MORC design,the OB model has close to 50% ballast(lead),They outperform their waterline easily. Hull speed is 5.76,but they will show 6's consistantly with 7's occasionaly.They are fairly narrow with a beam of less than 1/3rd the length. They have a full keel with a cutaway forefoot (typical Carl) so they track well, yet turn easily. With sails properly trimmed, they will steer themselves for minutes at a time without even sheet- to- tiller. They have a proper bridgedeck and straight dropboards that won't easily come out in a knockdown if jarred loose ..as well as low freeboard for less windage. Let's compare to a previous boat...a beneteau 331. The important numbers for offshore work are motion comfort and capsize screening. After the fastnet sinkings/deaths, it was determined that "2" be the highest number allowed in offshore racing (lower is better). Beneteau331 CS= 2.03......Ariel=1.84 !!  In motion comfort numbers..higher numbers mean 'smoother'...beneteau331=21.46....Ariel=24.51. For a 25.5fter, this is a GREAT boat! Compare the design to a folkboat..(argueably thee best lil offshore boat)...similar in so many ways! Ariels have crossed the Pacific to Hawia and back as well as all the way to Australia. Fairly fast,comfortable,safe,only 3ft8in draft and from $3000 to $8000.....how do you go wrong? I would sure consider one. But that's just my opinion........C-Pete..Cat K..Adam....what's yours ???

[Dougcan]

Ahh no implications here, sorry, I know that the Ariel is a CCA boat and a fine boat it is!  CCA rules are reasonable and produced many great boats.

No I'm referring to those boats that came later, designed and build under IOR rules,  Not sure I would want one.

[AdriftAtSea]

Besmirching the Ariel here is a risky proposition at best... the Ariel has many ardent defenders.... :D

Pete- 

If you're ever up in the Buzzards Bay area, let me know...I'll take you out on the Pretty Gee... We've only had one boat catch us this summer...and it was an F31 that's setup for racing...

[CharlieJ]

Dougcan- I'd be inclined to agree on the later IOR boats. They started squeezing the rules so hard after a few years that those boats really are squirrely to sail. The early IOR boats weren't nearly as bad, but still no where near the same as the CCA boats they sorta replaced. The Ariel, our Meridian, the Commander, etc, were all designed to the CCA rules or along those lines. VERY different boats.

Most any of the older type, longer keel, some what longish overhangs, etc, will make very good offshore and near shore boats. Tehani is a quite seakindly yacht for her size- her only problem is not having the capacity for enough stores for a really long passage. The Ariel is in the same position, but not quite as badly as they have a tad more beam. It's when you hit the yachts the size of the Triton that you really begin to get to the "Bluewater" capable sizes in my opinion. Strictly due to load carrying ability, not to length of boat.

[Frank]

OOOPS...don't mind me Dougcan...lost my head for 30 seconds...OK OK ..the speed I peck at took a couple of minutes. I have a real soft spot for Alberg designs...guess it shows.

[Dougcan]

Thanks CJ, that pretty much confirm what I thought. No IOR rules boat for me.

Frank, Ariel is a great boat, but it's too small for me, Triton might be okay, but I have never been in one so I cannot say.

Over all, I'm drilling down to about 33' maximum and a Rhodes design.  I like the Rhodes boats. Not many in my neck of the woods (okay make that none.) So, to get the boat I want, probably means I'll have to move. So I'm still looking.

I'm in the Pac NW and I own a Yankee Seahorse 24, which is great for Puget Sound and points north, but not sure I want to take it out to the open ocean even though it's supposed to be "blue water capable"

It is indeed a bit small and while I can "live on it" for a month or so, it won't work over the long term.  The main saving grace of the YS24 is that it has a pop-top which is a real pleasure to have headroom at anchor.

I'm a big guy at 6' and about 240lbs with broad shoulders, so I need a bit of room to move around in.

I do not need a large boat though, not like a 40'er or some such, just one with some room below.  Ability to go to windward is high on my list.