The Sailfar.Net Philosophy: Since this is a "Small Boat site"...

[CapnK]

Shaken or stirred? :)

Welcome aboard, castaway!

Those NS27's, nice looking boats.

[castawaysailor]

Shaken or stirred? :)

Welcome aboard, castaway!

Those NS27's, nice looking boats.

Thanks for the welcome; always shake a margarita, never stir

[s/v Faith]

All,

  I found one area where 'big boats' excell.

Take a look at ==>This thread<== on the cruisers forum.   ;D

[Captain Smollett]

I came across these comments last night while reading one particular google group on sailing.  Here are a couple of quotes from one of the (many) "pundits" on how we should ALL live/sail.  I think these sum up pretty nicely what it is we small boat sailors "rebel" against.

we don't take {boat name} offshore to do anything serious without 6 sailors aboard, 2 per watch section, 3 watch sections so you can get some REST under any conditions.

He's talking about a 40-plus footer.  If you've got the room for 6 people (and their provisions/gear), I guess that's okay.  But larger boats = larger problems, too.  He completely ignores that.  Let's see some more from this same commenter:

...inexperience can be remedied.  But, alas, ABILITY cannot. 
A 40' cruising sailboat is a handful for a 250 pound, able male.  I'm
sure glad I sail on one with roller furling main and mizzen.  Sailing the
{boat name} in bad conditions where you had to take the main down and lash
it to the rolling, rocking boom was a handful for 2 big people, not one. 
Lazy jacks are really nice until there's a gale.  The finest thing about
{boat name} roller furling mast is its GEARBOX.  I can furl the main,
alone, hanging on for dear life strapped to the base of the mast cranking
in a sail at full load.  Coming into the wind, possibly rolling over
because that's not necessarily coming into the wave train, isn't
necessary at all.  Roller furling mains make sail handling for less
experienced hands just so simple.  It's not necessary for them to figure
out which line reefs which section and how to set it under pressure. 
Just roll the damned thing into the mast until what's left outside
relieves the pressure trying to rip it off the boat and that, although
not really "nautical" to brag about at the yacht club bar, way good
enough in 40 knots of wind and 12' seas.  Try it sometime...even you
diehard traditionalists.

For a 120 pound female teacher who has had all the sailing classes in the
best schools in the nation....a 40' cruising sailboat in a gale is a
recipe for disaster.  She's just not big enough, weighs enough and is
strong enough to do it.  It's not politically correct, it's truth.  Even
standing at the wheel, to say nothing of going forward to do anything
about reefing the main and furling the ripping jib, she won't be strong
enough for long.  I'm 255 and moved pianos for a living for many years. 
I'm not "physically fit", but I'm strong.  Lifting an end to a 900 pound
piano became easy.  I cannot haul the wheel back and forth fighting to
hold any kind of course with the swells against the rudder for hours and
hours to keep the boat off those reefs.  My strong arms get so sore and
my back in so much pain, I'm sure glad there are 5 other big souls to
relieve me.  What about the "cruising couple"?  The man is totally
exhausted.  His arms have given out.  The 120 pound teacher must now
stand at the helm, hauling the wheel back and forth in a losing battle
with the rudder and course.  She has no more relief aboard.  She's
DOOMED!  Face it...it's true!

But, every one of you know who the "dock hermits" are who go off way out
there for adventure, him and her, in their fancy sailing clothes and
bushy beards trying to look like sailors of 1852.  They'd rather die
first than take some really strong 20-somethings with them who know how
to sail, for hours and hours if necessary....

The boat manufacturers are also to blame.  We've no place to SLEEP those
boys on a 35' Endeavour, except on the cabin deck or that little cubby
hole of a quarterberth.  Berths are ugly, especially berths that are
USEFUL rolling 35 degrees over so you don't get thrown out.  That won't
do.....

Good enough?  Amazing how many survive out of just luck.

He's not the only one. From another commenter:

I don't see what is the big deal about getting a
couple of crewmembers to go on the longer
passages.  Worst case, you spend a little more on
the provisions.

Personally, I decided some time ago that to do the
Pacific I want at least four capable people on the
boat.  ...  Only two people on the boat is too much work for me.  I'm
cruising to have fun!

And finally, back to our original commentator:

You two shouldn't even leave the slip without at LEAST TWO, Strong YOUNG
hands who know how to sail it without you.

To a point, I suppose these comments are true enough.  They are talking about BIG boats (by our standards).  The problem I have with these comments, though, is the absoluteness of them.  I guess I am just bristling at the thought of someone (with 39,000+ messages on Google Groups, by the way) telling me/others how they SHOULD do something.

To offer a counter example, I would suggest he read one of the many, many accounts (in print and on the web) of "we picked up crew who turned out to be less than helpful" or even a hindrance.  We all balance risks.  This guy assumes we are not 'smart' because we choose a different path than him.

If you want to read the whole thread:

rec.boats.cruising on Google Groups

[CharlieJ]

HUH??? I guess he's never heard of Dame Ellen Macarthur eh?  ;D

5 foot 2 and racing an open 60 round the world? single hand?

Never heard of vanes or auto pilots either has he.

[skylark]

I try not to poison my mind with rec.boats.cruising.  It is sad, but so many internet forums eventually fall into personal attacks and argument games.  I am always glad to find a small group of people dedicated to simple cruising, like in this forum.   

[Anton]

It's so off base it actually sounds fishy to me...I'm not so sure the guy is on the level.    But, who the heck knows.

[Captain Smollett]

I know one thing; a few years ago I was 'designing' a boat around six people aboard full time.  It was upper 40's, 48 iirc, and sleeping 6 (with personal gear and other 'space') is VERY difficult on a boat that size.  I'm sure it can be done - shoot, I KNOW it can, but this guy makes it sound like putting six able seaman aboard a 40 footer is no big deal.

My point is his solution itself presents its own set of challenges.  That is, IF he is talking about something like a crossing.  My gut tells me he means even an overnight (or two) offshore passage.

Different strokes, I guess.  Always fun to identify closed minds.  Sailing is cool partly because there are 60 gillion ways to solve the same problem(s).

[s/v Faith]

Keep in mind, at least underway there will be plenty of berths available... can't have less then 2 on watch at any time don't you know?   :P

[Cmdr Pete]

You're all doomed

DOOMED I tell 'ya

Pick up some crew already, you bunch of dock hermits

[Zen]

.  I am always glad to find a small group of people dedicated to simple cruising, like in this forum.   

HEY!! who you calling simple!!  ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I can't think of five people that I could stand to be stuck on a boat with for more than a few days.  As Norm has said about the C&C 38 Melissa—Sails 6, feeds 4, sleeps 2... and that's probably true for any passage of a decent length.

I prefer to not have to rely on in-mast furling and electric winches...as they're just more stuff to fail, and what do you do if they go south on you in bad weather... it can be a very dicey thing when that happens.

Also, the story in the OP...what about autopilots, or more likely windvanes.  Windvanes work wonderfully in heavier air, which tends to cause most autopilots trouble.  Sailing long-distances without some form of self-steering is like committing yourself to some outer level of heck.... not fun...

[Fortis]

You're all doomed

DOOMED I tell 'ya

Pick up some crew already, you bunch of dock hermits

I'll take the one on the right, thanks. You can have the other.

The first post just piles on the stupid, really. At about a third of the way in you just want to shake him and say "Dude, the problem is you have a poop boat!" If you need to monster your boat into doing what it needs to do it is either broken or designed by Roberts.

I have been out on my 26 in 42knots consistent with much higher gusts, it was certainly an adventure, but at no time was steering an impossible trevail...balanced rudders work. Here's a thought, having a non mast furling main means that the sail has better shape and works in a wing like way as a sail long after the thing on his boat has become a big bag of wind trying to tip the boat over. You want to not have to use all your strength to furl it, try changing course to the wind for a minute, you twit! His comment on "releiving the danger of someone not knowing which line to pull in order to reef the main..."  Yeah well....I think the term "wanker" comes to mind.

P.S In our big wind sail, we had up the number 1 headsail when we got clobbered rounding a headland. We have a downhaul fitted to the hanked on sail, so dropping it was a matter of about 6 seconds and the downhaul held it on the deck so we did not need to go forwards. The boat was somewhat overpowered with the full main, but mostly only out of control in the gusts when it rounded up. It is the only time we ever used the jiffy reefing system in earnest and went down to the second reef (We have a masthead rig with a fairly small main), the boat stood up and behaved beautifully. We decided to sail to the waves for the smoothest possible ride, trimmed our sail accordingly and rode out the blow in about an hour and a half. No damage, no drama. If we had insisted on sticking to our original course like we were on railroad tracks the waves would have diced and minced us...or at least shaken out our fillings.

Sailing is not like driving along a highway with concrete walls directing traffic.


Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

Unfortunately Alex, many of the people, especially the ones who come over from powerboats, don't seem to understand that a sailor has to work with the wind and seas... and that to do otherwise is both dangerous and foolish. 

[Joe Pyrat]

Well I guess the good news is that if these guys won't leave the dock with out 4 to 6 crew, we shouldn't have to worry about running into them out there very often.

The other thought that strikes me is, maybe he just isn't a very good sailor and needs all that help?

::)

[Norm]

Captain:
Thanks for reminding us that fear is a superb brake.

The fun thing about Team Sailfar is that we have found the brake-release.

Spring is here, we're going sailing.  See you out there.

Norman

ps... after I finish painting the living room!

[Captain Smollett]

Today while pondering "insure or don't insure," I realized another angle on how large our attachement to "stuff" grows.  I thought, "okay, so what if I lose the boat?"  I considered this question from the perspective of "what have I really lost."

Now, I am assuming loss of the boat, but no serious injury or loss of life in the following.

The first thing I thought in answer to that last question is "not much, really."  This is not to say that I don't love my boats - I do.  But if I were to lose my boat, I'd be out a few thousand for the boat herself (hull, rig, sails), a couple of anchors and some odds and ends.  Not much, in the grand scheme of things.

Then it hit me:  "Thank goodness I don't have a lot of STUFF on the boat that I feel attached to."  Electronic gizmos and trinkets to make life "easier" that ultimately would make life more stressful because I would be in constant fear (at some level) of losing that 'stuff.'  When we spend money on something, some gadget, we seem to form an attachment with it - it is "ours" and that bond is generally not taken lightly.  Do I want to be attached to the "stuff" on my boat?

In short, I realized that if the worse should happen and I somehow lose the boat, I want my biggest sense of loss to be FOR THE BOAT - not the "stuff" she carries.

Fair Winds.

[cgoinggal]

Interesting thoughts.

When I was made to abandon my vessel last year I had about 15 minutes to come to grips with the fact that I was loosing everything I had worked towards for years and everything I was hoping to achieve in the future, not to mention, my home.  I don't have much stuff on board (it is hard to load much on a 22 footer and I have a very minimalist approach to material things) but, it was hard to give up on the idea of her and my future together; all my dreams. 

When I finally jumped overboard though my thoughts were more immediate.  I had been taught by my father that the price you pay for leaving your vessel is to put her under if she is not already so and I had tears in my eyes because I do not have any thruhulls to blow (for safety ironically) and all my drills were inaccessibly packed (not ever thinking that I would have to sink my boat in foul weather someday) and as a result I left her floating and I was very concerned about the safety of other mariners thinking that I had just let many people down.  In a desperate attempt to alert others to the fact that she was unmanned my last official act before getting in the water was to invert the American flag in hopes that someone savvy enough to notice may be able to either approach her and throw her a tow line or stay well clear of her to avoid collision until she would ultimately come ashore somewhere on the Baja coast. 

Fortunately, it never came to that but, when I went to pick her up after the Mexican Navy had towed her to Topolobompo, the first thing I noticed was that someone had taken the time and had shown my little Andunge so much respect that they had righted and flown her American flag.  I cried for a long time...

Sailing and boats go beyond the material and into the soul like nothing else I have experienced.  It is a hard and unnatural thing indeed to watch even a little boat go off to face the sea and it's ill fate alone. 

[AdriftAtSea]

CgoingGal-

Just curious, why did you have to abandon Andunge?  I am very glad that you were able to recover her...and that no major damage had been done to her.

[cgoinggal]

During foul weather while crossing the Sea of Cortez I made a general call for contact to anyone in San Carlos, Sanora (which I was 16 miles off the entrance to) to respond in order to relay to someone expecting me that I was headed offshore to wait out strong winds after which I would make my way back to San Carlos.  The individual asked, given what was predicted, if I would like to maintain radio contact for as long as possible which I agreed to (my mistake).  For about a day and a half we were able to communicate.  At some point during the second day I fell beyond antennae range (which we knew was going to happen).  After that, apparently there was an uproar in San Carlos as to the state of my personal safety, they panicked, and called in a May Day despite the content of my personal transmissions which were honest but, positive in nature.   The Mexican Navy arrived on the scene after a two day search.  The helicopter found me first to which I communicated to that I was not in need of assistance.  They flew off and I was relieved.  Several hours later, on channel 16, I heard the Navy hailing and talking to another sailboat so I came about in order to get closer to make contact with, which I eventually was able to do, and asked the sailboat to relay to the search vessel that I was not in need of assistance, which they did and to which there response was, "I told them but, I think they are headed your way anyway."  I was heartbroken.  They arrived sometime later while I was on deck adjusting my radar reflector.  After some arguing, some ignoring, some bargaining, some pleading, I finally accepted that I had no choice, they were not going away.  15 minutes later I was in the water.

The Navy, I should mention, did a tremendous job start to finish, and did not charge me a penny.  When I asked what I owed the exact response by the Captain of the gunship that towed Andunge south was, "It was our pleasure."  If you ever need anything I would highly recommend the Mexican Navy.  They had me fill out service questionnaires as to how they did and they gave me a 'Welcome brochure' to the Arm Prieto (the gunship).  Good people!!