What to do about Water? tankage, requirements, watermakers.... etc.

[Godot]

How much does water cost?  It would have to be quite a bit to make a water maker *cost* effective.

Figuring a PowerSurvivor 40E could probably be procured for around $3000 or so...

If you where someplace where water costs as much as $1.50 a gallon (I think I read somewhere that the going rate is around one dollar a gallon), you could purchase 2000 gallons of water before hitting the break even point.  That's not even counting the cost of spares and repairs on the watermaker, and the costs of generating the energy to run it.  That's a lot of water for most of us.  With just a little care, it should still be possible to get it for far less than that in most places.

There are certainly plenty of valid reasons for installing a watermaker (distance from a water source, small tanks, weight sensitivity, addiction to long showers for those with big enough boats, a desire to increase independence, etc...).  For the vast majority of us, though, saving money is probably not one of them.

As far as little creepy crawlies in the drinking water ... it seems to me that the prudent thing to do is add some bleach to any remotely questionable source to kill the bugs, and then add a filter to improve the taste (and remove any mutants that survived the chemical warfare attack).  This is one of the reasons why, should I build my next boat, I am planning on figuring a system of using a bunch of small jerry jugs instead of large main tanks.  It should help isolate contamination.

[AdriftAtSea]

Of course, the assumption that water is available to purchase is not necessarily a valid one.  If you're making a trans-oceanic passage, finding a local store to buy bottled water at isn't going to happen. :) If you're coastal cruising, a watermaker doesn't make as much sense, since in many coastal waters, you can't effectively use the watermaker in any case.  Bacteria-contaminated water or polluted water will prevent you from using it, and that describes most harbors today.

[nowell]

in many coastal waters, you can't effectively use the watermaker in any case.  Bacteria-contaminated water or polluted water will prevent you from using it, and that describes most harbors today.

My Marina is right next to the Dow Chemical plant. I heard, at a time most of the pollutants dumped in the US were right around my marina. Its still a nice shade of green with some things growing that I think haven't even been classified as life forms yet.

Anyway, sidebar, back to our regularly scheduled program!

[Tim]

I emailed the Clorox people about treating water onboard and this is their reply regarding drinking water.

To purify the water for drinking, we recommend using 1/4 teaspoon of Clorox Liquid Bleach to one gallon of water, let sit for 30 minutes.  After this time there should be a slight chlorine odor to the water.  If the slight chlorine odor is not present, repeat the dosage and wait 15 more minutes.

There are some very real risks associated with using chlorine as your water treatment, I would suggest reading up a little more on it. Here is just one straight forward assessment out of Canada Health.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/chlor-eng.php

[Joe Pyrat]

Interesting, but did you not this line from the referenced page?

Current scientific data shows that the benefits of chlorinating our drinking water (less disease) are much greater than any health risks from THMs* and other by-products.

It also appears that an activated carbon filters can be used to remove chlorine and its by-products, so it would appear the ideal solution is to chlorinate your water, then run it through an activated carbon filter between the tank and your glass if you are drinking your stored water.  Adding chlorine to your water tank also keeps your entire water system free of those little beasties that like to grow in there and make your water smell bad.

Additionally, one thing I've observed at a number of marinas on the Chesapeake is a system of those water filters you can buy at Home Depot or Lowe's rigged up so you can attach them between the water source and your tank.  In most cases the filters attached to the marina's faucet with the hose attached to the out flow side.  This system would reduce the organic material present in water which contributes to the formation of THMs when the water is chlorinated.  If followed up with a second filter between the tank and the glass it would seem your water would be as good as it is likely to get.

* Chlorine reacts with the organic matter, naturally present in water, such as decaying leaves. This chemical reaction forms a group of chemicals known as disinfection by-products. The most common of these by-products are trihalomethanes (THMs), which include chloroform. The amount of THMs found in drinking water depends on a number of things, including the season and the source of the water. For example, THM levels are generally lower in winter than in summer, because the amount of natural organic matter is lower and less chlorine is needed to disinfect at colder temperatures. THM levels are also low when wells or large lakes are the drinking water source, and higher when rivers or other surface waters are the source, because they generally contain more organic matter

[Tim]

Yes Joe I did see your referenced quote. ;) My reason for posting the link was to show that there are a number of considerations when using chlorine as a treatment particularly when there is a greater possibility of organic matter in the water.

Chlorination has been the mainstay of water treatment for many years, but it has to be done correctly, I am just not sure I would go on the recommendation of an email from the Clorox company. :)

And yes I have been certified as a small water system treatment operator.

[Frank]

Interesting notes. A local fellow that taught power sqaudron took a year off to sail south. He bought EVERYTHING that he thought they needed.In the end he spent way to much and had way too much 'stuff' onboard...including a watermaker. I have to agree that "IF" you are planning  long offshore passages one may be worth considering with the extra lbs carried and possibility of contamination after extended periods with water in a large tank. I'll leave you's with this. We found that on our 1st cruise south we had way too much 'stuff' as well.Several items never got used....they only took up space and got in the way...not to mention dollars spent.We found that many fears were unfounded and supplies were generally easier to get than expected, plus a sunshade easily converts to a huge funnel to fill tanks with rain.I always go back to 'get the biggest anchor ya can handle and the rest falls into place' ;D Would be interested to hear CJ's and Lynx's ...or anyone eles opinion thats spent months at a time cruising on buying too much stuff...or how simple it really could be to spend time away.I'm sure watermakers have a place...but the KISS thing will work 99% of the time for most of what the majority of us will do.Good informative discussion.

[Auspicious]

If you're making a trans-oceanic passage, finding a local store to buy bottled water at isn't going to happen. :)

True as far as it goes. Crossing the Atlantic with 120 gallons of water in tanks and about 10 gallons in jugs we (4 or 5 aboard) never really were at risk of running out of water.

Cleaning up with baby wipes on passage -- even long passages -- and washing dishes with sea water were likely the two biggest water saving measures.

I just can't talk myself into a watermaker.

[s/v Faith]

...or anyone eles opinion thats spent months at a time cruising on buying too much stuff...or how simple it really could be to spend time away.I'm sure watermakers have a place...

FWIW,

Could not agree more Frank.

  After 8 months of cruising we had food aboard that we had bought in NC before we left.

Not only did I not regret passing the water maker along to someone else (well, maybe I regret the money) but I was glad I did not have one.  I believe that unless you NEED one they are not worth the considerable trouble they bring onboard.... 

[CharlieJ]

We also bought way more than needed. Hey- people who LIVE in a place have to eat and wash dishes. Might not be  the food you are used to , but if that stops you, best stay home. That's part of the fun- finding new stuff.

I haven't made a LONG ocean passage, and I understand that's different. But for coastal cruising, what you really need is available every where people live. Might cost a bit more, but if you try the local stuff, it might also surprise you.

Of course, Tehani is a small boat, so we simply cannot overstock- she'd be so full we couldn't move around ;D

[Lynx]

Your cruising area will dictate if you need/want a watermaker. Ocean Voyaging where clean ocean water is around you can get by with it. dirty coastal waters and harbors will clog filters quite often and you will need a lot. Survey a cruising area to see what people are doing on the smaller boats.

Too much stuff - Stocking up to much for a cruise is hard on a small boat. There is a British book called "Cruising on a Budget" that I agree with most of except buying all used. New is best if you can do it or be prepaired to do without.

Anyplace where there is people you will find water. At all docks I see fresh water filters. Never used one myself. Just put bleach in and waited for a day or 2. Stored what I needed until then. I always use a white water hose, usually mine. You can always boil your water to clean. My tank has fouled 2x and I had to heavy bleach and flush. You can buy the 5 gal jugs for less than $ 7 and give away when you no longer need them.  Please note that anything stored on decks during a storm underway may be lost.

Learning to use less than 1 gal a day is hard/fun. I have 15 gal's fresh water supply. About 2 weeks for 1 if careful in the Bahamas. Bahamas water was $ 0.25 per gal and in Marathon City Marina, Filtered is $ 0.05 per gal,

If I was going to cross Oceans I would want at least 2 gal's per day tankage in at least 2 tanks or a watermaker.

Being a bum in the Fl Keys for the winter, James "LYNX"

In coastal cruising I think the money would be better spent on a fridge,  A/C and small generator and fuel to burn.

[Joe Pyrat]

Tim, your statement that there are "very real risks" associated with chlorination seemed a bit over the top to me.  Researching methods of eliminating Algae growth in my onboard potable water system lead me to a number of studies on the benefits as well as the issues with adding chlorine to water as a disinfectant.  One study states there is more of a health risk associated with eating a peanut butter sandwich than  drinking a glass of chlorinated water.  True, there are some health concerns but as I stated, the use of a filter at the tap can reduce these significantly and you still reap the benefits of chlorination.  For example, the Aquasana AQ-4000 filter system claims a 99% removal of chlorine and a 99% removal of THMs, so there is a solution which does not prevent you from reaping the benefits of chlorination.  If you are in possession of a study which indicates the risks are greater then they seem to be based on my research, please provide me a link to it.

As to Clorox's suggested procedure, reports I've read from several states regarding in-home water purification suggest similar ratios.

[s/v Copacetic]

Interesting reading. For those thinking about many smallish containers, Reliance has several interesting options.

http://relianceproducts.com/products/hydration.html?page=1

[AdriftAtSea]

Great link for water carrying containers.

[Old Shoe]

Assuming a daily ambient temperature in the mid/high 80's(F), and the usual workload associated with sailing a simple 25' boat, how much water per person, per day should I carry? Also assume that dishes will be washed with salt water, and meals will require very little water to cook.

This is to help me plan for a trip around the Delmarva peninsula. I know that I'll have access to water but I still want to have an idea of how fast I will consume the water and when I'll need to replenish.

[ThistleCap]

A gallon/person/day is luxury and should cover drinking, cooking, rinse after raw water bath.  After washing dishes in raw water, dip in fresh rinse with a small amount of chlorox.  Half that amount is sufficient for consumption and cooking, since what you cook you consume anyhow.  Other beverages you carry (soda, beer) help to extend available water supplies.  Carry Crystal Light or similar non-sugar mixes to make water more enjoyable.  If water supplies run low, eliminate coffee and caffeine drinks, since they are diuretic, and remove water from the body.  Most people know that, but thought I'd mention it anyhow.  If you're concerned about access to water, split your water supply between different containers (vessel's tank and jerry jugs), so if one is punctured or otherwise ruined, you still have a viable supply, and also gives you a removable water supply if you ever have to abandon ship.  We used the g/p/d rule for all ocean passages, and always had water left over.  Hope this helps.
Jim

[Captain Smollett]

Also, any chance to catch rain water could be taken advantage of.  For some reason, a lot of folks overlook this.  Maybe you can't COUNT on it, if you do get rain, that's free water for the taking.

Do you use ice for cooling?  If so, is there a way to recover the melt water?  For example, we use ice in the ice box in plastic containers.  The resulting melt can be saved for washing or (after filtering) drinking if need be (only hesitant here because we don't fully trust our source of ice for full time consumption).  Freezing  small bottles of water to use to fill the empty spaces in the ice box serves double duty (more cooling + that little extra bit of water).

Small bottles of drinking water can be stowed in a surprising number of places that you likely would not be putting much of anything else.  Every little bit helps if you think you are on the bubble for having enough.

One thing that really struck me from reading history about the Great Age of Sail is that the old guys only rarely and in exceptional circumstances gave up a chance to take on fresh water.  It seemed almost like a superstition, but a practical one.

[ThistleCap]

One other thing I might mention.  You didn?t indicate how your vessel is equipped or if you are sailing with crew.  The hardest thing of sailing with people who aren?t used to living aboard is ALWAYS the subjects of water and electrical conservation.  People are just too used to letting the water run and leaving lights on all over the place.  A discussion of the realities of life aboard should be included in your crew orientation along with where the PFD?s, seacocks, extinguishers, etc. are located.  Before we went to sea, we always disconnected the pressure water system and all unessential circuits.  People are much more conscious of how much water they?re using if they need to pump it by hand or foot.  In the Chesapeake, you?re never more than a daysail from a water supply.  If you run non-stop outside, the easiest to reach supplies would be Lewes, DE and Chesapeake City in the Canal.  Have a great trip.

[Old Shoe]

I'll be alone or with one other person at most. I may even have "rotating" crew since I can pull into so many places.

I agree, getting others to comply with rationing can be difficult. It isn't hard for me though. I was on submarines where the first rule of water consumption was: "The reactor needs it more than you do".

I have a Coronado 25 which has a 13-15 gallon tank under the V-berth. I like the idea of many small water bottles squirreled away to make use of otherwise wasted space. I'll also probably do a couple of collapsible water bags. And rainwater of course.

Thanks for the advice.

[s/v Faith]

I am sorry, I neglected to mention that I merged your question into a thread with lots of info on this topic.  You might find some more input by going back and reading from the beginning.

  Water can be like gold when cruising.  When your tanks are full you feel rich and ready... Rose and I were thankful to be satisfied with very low water use...

  Good topic to ponder at length.   :)

I'll be alone or with one other person at most. I may even have "rotating" crew since I can pull into so many places.

I agree, getting others to comply with rationing can be difficult. It isn't hard for me though. I was on submarines where the first rule of water consumption was: "The reactor needs it more than you do".

I have a Coronado 25 which has a 13-15 gallon tank under the V-berth. I like the idea of many small water bottles squirreled away to make use of otherwise wasted space. I'll also probably do a couple of collapsible water bags. And rainwater of course.

Thanks for the advice.