What to do about Water? tankage, requirements, watermakers.... etc.

[CapnK]

Teach -

Yes, the area will be smooth all over - no pointy things allowed! :D

Carpet would work fine as abrasion-resistant liner and I've thought about using it (and may still), but I'm trying to use foam products of one sort or another as much as possible inside the boat. I know that using foam as a liner in these areas won't add much in the way of flotation for the boat in and of itself, but like backpackers say, "Watch the ounces, and the pounds will take care of themselves". Every little bit helps, right? The goal is to have a boat which will have enough flotation to not sink in a worst-case scenario. Jim Baldwin on "Atom" spurred this thinking, and he makes good points on the subject. If the boat will float on its own even when filled with water, I won't need to carry a liferaft, and may even be able to repair it at sea if the need arises. (I've been meaning to start a thread on this topic, I've found some good info relating to it, I'll do that soon.)

I'll make covers for the bladders of slippery fabric, as another step to avoid abrasion. Also to compartmentalize the areas so that they hold the bladders in a manner that would preclude movement-induced abrasion. Probably all overkill, but hey why not? :D

Thanks for the input, Frank and Teach! :)

[CharlieJ]

Kurt- we have a Vetus 19 gallon tank set under the cockpit on Tehani. I used a 20 gallon flex tank as one of my water tanks aboard my trimaran for several years while we were cruising. They work very well. You really won't need the carpet- just be sure there is no sharp corners, points, etc. You may want to lash the corners- most have grommets- if the space is large enough for the tank to move around- on Tehani I built the space JUST to fit the tank while full, so it can't move.

[hearsejr]

good ol' boat magazine did an artical, on how to build your own water maker. I can try an get the info if you want me too. it looks kinda big for a smaller boat though.
I plan on useing alot of those bottled water and a few bigger tanks with filters before the water enters the tank.
one of the boats I'm looking at is very roomy and is missing the cushions, but I'm only looking a bed for one person, and maybe a couch for any guest...also an air matress for those extra folks too drunk to find their dingy. I figure that gives me alot of room for tankage and bottles.

Bill

[CapnK]

That's 2 votes for Vetus... :) Thx, CJ.

Of the 3 brands at Defender, Vetus is the middle-priced line. Nauta takes the "way-higher priced" honors, while the Plastimos are so much cheaper that I'd really want to see them and compare before purchase. I have a feeling that the Plastimos are something like a polyethylene inner bladder with a nylon outer, and I know you can get a similar product from CampMor in a multi-gallon size for cheap.

Looking at the Vetus website, it says that "the outlet is supplied loose for easy installation in any desired position.". Did you do this with your tank CJ? Was it difficult to install the outlet?

I think it will be fairly straightforward to make compartments for 4 of the 14.5 gallon tanks in my under-berth areas. The size of the tanks seems just about right for that location, and that would be 56 gals of water, a little over 450 lbs of weight low and close to CE when tanked up fully. I'd probably carry also another 20 gal or so bladder (maybe one of the cheaper Plastimos, since it wont be used as much, and will be easier inspected) that could be stowed most of the time, and only used on a long crossing, or if I was going "away" for a while and wouldn't be assured of water availability ahead of time.

[Jack Tar]

Plastimo makes several size water bladers. A big pluss is you can find them on E bay.

[Joe Pyrat]

Did I mention I used approximately ( ;D) 1400 lbs of fresh water as water ballast when I cruised the Bahamas.  If worse came to worse, I could syphon it ;) ::) :D.

We had discussed this with regards to Mac's and other water ballast boats.  The idea was to create a plastic bladder that would/could be put in the water ballast compartment and filled with fresh water with the appropriate plumbing to the sink/shower setup in the boat.  As the freshwater was used up, salt water could be let in to maintain the ballast.

[s/v Faith]

Frank,

  Do you happen to remember the brand of that bladder?

Does anyone else have any direct experience with these?

  I have considered this for a while, but have a friend (with an Ariel) who needs to replace a faulty tank in the bow.

THanks,

[Kailyst]

I don't have any direct knowledge of this device, but it sounds interesting and would remove the necessity of carrying LOTS of water on board. Check out the Aquifer 150. It weighs 106 pounds but it make 150 gallons per DAY!

http://www.spectrawatermakers.com/

[s/v Faith]

That is a cool little unit.   ;D

  I purchased a used PUR 80, with the intent of doing just as you suggested.  It is a pretty large system, and draws a lot more current then the unit you mention.

  I don't like the idea of reducing tankage allot for a watermaker, since a failure might leave you wanting.

[AdriftAtSea]

The only problem I see with watermakers is the maintenance and electricity usage that they use.   I think the idea of a watermaker is a good one, but my boat is both weight and electrical usage sensitive.  I was looking at the Waterlog watermaker.  Has anyone seen/used this product?

[Captain Smollett]

Completely off topic, but when "Waterlog Watermakers" makes a non-MS centric web site, I might consider their product.  You know, W3C compliance and user friendliness is not that hard, and is considered good customer service in the modern era of the Internet.

{/rant}

[AdriftAtSea]

Did a little more research on the Waterlog watermaker....it is not looking very good.  Major complaints with the manufacturer about lack of support, quality control problems, warranty repair problems, etc...

This is really too bad... The Waterlog looks like a very interesting product...

[Captain Smollett]

Okay, so if the concern for using a typical RO watermaker is current draw, but the "Waterlog" seemed neato since it uses a tow to provide power, why not employ a towed generator to supply the current for a normal watermaker?

I mean, why have multiple purpose-built devices on board that take up space when not in use?  Using a towed generator to supply current for the RO watermaker can also be used to charge batts, heat water, run nav or cabin lights, etc.

[AdriftAtSea]

while the idea of using a towed generator to power the watermaker is a good one, it falls short on a couple of fronts.  One, most towed water generators don't have the power capacity to power  a decent sized watermaker.  Two, the watermaker still needs power when you're at anchor.  Three, will the watermaker be usable if you have to abandon ship—very unlikely. 

The other real issue I had with the traditional watermakers is the amount of space and plumbing they seem to require.

[Captain Smollett]

PUR 80 (12 L per hour) draws 8 amps.  You run it for one hour a day, that's 8 amp-hours per day.

The Aquair 100 by Ampair generates 2 amps at 4 kts boatspeed.  Tow it for 4 hours to cover the draw to make 12 L water.

That unit is also convertable to a wind generator, which addresses water making at anchor (so long as there is some wind).

As for abandon ship tools, there are hand operated RO watermakers; I am sure some of them can be used with electric as well, or convertable from one to the other.

Space and plumbing?  Well, that's the real trade-off.

[Kailyst]

I don't know if anyone read the complete advertisement that I posted but the Aquifer 150 also has an optional SOLAR panel for charging it's battery. That's why I thought it was so interesting.

As I said, I have no personal knowledge of this device, but they seem to have covered almost ALL the bases, with perhaps the exception of weight, since it's no bigger than your average cooler.

[AdriftAtSea]

Nice idea, but its also very bulky, and very, very expensive.  I just looked at pricing, and the only site that had posted pricing was Austrailian...and was over $10,000 AUD.  UGH

[Kailyst]

I just looked at pricing, and the only site that had posted pricing was Austrailian...and was over $10,000 AUD.  UGH

OOPS! Sorry, I didn't check the prices.  :o Well, on to the next brilliiant idea!  ::)

[s/v Faith]

OOPS! Sorry, I didn't check the prices.  :o Well, on to the next brilliant idea!  ::)

  No, I don't think it is at all unreasonable.  Ok, maybe the price but not the idea.  Sure the floating condo dwellers can't meet the energy requirements, but the small boat Sailor is not looking to fill the hottub, or run the dish washer......  ;D

  Like Smollet posted, the energy requirements do not come out too bad when you are only running the unit long enough to make water to drink, and maybe take a sunshower.....

  My PUR 80 is a bit large, but the bigger problem with a unit like this is that it needs to be used, or else the membrane has to be pickled.  Much more realistic would be a smaller unit like a PUR 40.  Cost wise, I know some folks make their own out of pressure washer parts.  Cheaper, but then you have to generate (or invert) lots of 115VAC.  Inverters are going to require a lot of current, since motors are very high load (at least to start) and there are lots of losses for the inefficiency of converting dc-ac.

  Still, having a small-ish H2O maker on board could provide a level of self sufficiency that might make the space and violation of the "KISS" principal worth the effort.

  IMHO.


(Anyone wanna trade a PUR 40 for a PUR 80?)  ;D ;D ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

Oh, no argument from me, that having a small RO watermaker on-board is an excellent resource, and makes sailing far on a small boat much more feasible.   I'd just like to find a way to do it that isn't going to be a royal PITA or cost a bucketload of boat bucks.  :D