Naysayers, pessimists, and people who don't know what they are talking about...

[Tim]

Is that really a GOOD thing?  I mean, isn't that part of the problem...that the ones that don't know are listening to others that don't really know, either, but talk a good game?

I guess "know" is the operative word here.  My problem is that I imagine that everyone aboard a boat is striving toward some (reasonable) standard of seamanship; I have finally learned that is simply not true.

Ahh, no it is NOT a good thing IMHO (just to be clear on that point ;)) 
But I have seen  it over and over on forums(and this is where Mr. Bill steps out from behind the curtain :))
that some "sailors" just want to ask and be told "the" answer, kinda just like they want to look at a screen that tells them where they are and where they want to be.

OK now I will go take a couple of breaths

[s/v Faith]

I am a big believer in accountability.

  We are accountable for the decisions we make, and for the voices we heed.

I know that guy too, and am disgusted when I see those who decide to place value on his words.

  I am however, grateful that I have the choice not to listen...  I am thankful that there are times I might
even have the honor to speak to someone in a way that might counter what 'that guy' says.


Accountability is applicable in many of the examples on this thread.  There will always be voices to lead some to the rocks.  Worse yet, there are voices who lead people to abandon their dreams.  It is unfortunate, but in each case those who listen and heed these voices are receiving the fruit of their decisions.

  I am grateful for those voices that speak Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness... self control.  I am thankful for the effect they have on my life when I listen... I am thankful the the honor it is to count mine among the voices speaking these things.

  These things change the world.;

We decide what we speak.  We choose who we listen to...

We choose which camp we are in.



I am thankful to be here among you all.

Fairest of fair winds to all who read. :)

[Capt. Tony]

Well said, Craig, well said.  I believe those are good words to live by. ;)

[Captain Smollett]

  We are accountable for the decisions we make, and for the voices we heed.

...

  I am however, grateful that I have the choice not to listen...

Beautiful.  Thank-you for posting this...AGAIN.

I think it is starting to soak into my brain a little bit what you are saying.  The first part I got, but the second part...BIG stuff.  Thanks again.

  I am thankful that there are times I might
even have the honor to speak to someone in a way that might counter what 'that guy' says.

I never know how my words are taken or might effect someone, but I do get myself into the depressing circle of thinking my words are completely ignored by EVERYBODY: Persona Non Grata.  I find this comes on the heels of conflict with the naysayers, pessimists and those that don't know what they are talking about.

I recently had the opportunity to share some boating "tips" with some friends who just got a boat.  They are in a unique situation as they are boating with a fellow in a wheel chair (brain injury in Iraq) as well as a small child.  I tried to express the cautions we see in this thread (watch who you listen to, including me...weigh everything yourself), though I fear I gave more than was asked for (me longwinded?  ::) ).

Fairest of fair winds to all who read. :)

And to you, my friend.  Thanks again for that wonderful post.  Time for some introspection.

[Frank]

Amen    grog to ya

[Pappy Jack]

Captain,

This is a quote that is quite apropos for these times. When the B.S. really starts to fly, I'll try to remember it...that is if my emotions get the better of me ::).

Fair winds and full sails,

Pappy Jack

P.S. Have a grog on me.

[skylark]

I don't really know what youse guys are talking about, but I just wanted to add:

"So many freaks, so few circuses."

Skylark the Uncontrollable, 1631

[wallo9]

Well I worked in hotels and rest. for many years and i developed a formula for deal with people- An ignorant man will talk at you, an intelligent man will talk to you and a wise man will talk with you. It works pretty good! I have trained myself to attempt to listen to everyone because I'm kind of slow and I find that a lot of people are helpful but also because i listen to a lot of people i get a lot of flak, so i try to carry my experience forward to help me do the right thing but sometimes that doesn't help.
Back in the seventy's i had an old town canoe i decided to put a Sun Fish sail on it and the day it was completed a buddy of mine stopped by i asked him if he wanted to join me on the trial so we pushed off into the harbor it was afternoon and a good breeze was developing and we were moving along i had plans to build some leeboards but hadn't got to it yet i was useing my paddle as a rudder and it worked just fine soon we were in the channel heading out into the sound. I had  a first date that night so didn't want to go to far  also the sound can get pretty wild so i decided to come about when i realized that we had know keel and we were whipping along my buddy attempted to move forward on the bow hoping that would bring us about   that time we were coming out of the channel and a northerly gust hit us broad side and over we went i was a good swimmer and was able to break down the mast and secure it to the thwarts and we began to swim with the canoe towards shore a stinkpot came by and threw us a line and brought us in close to the shore and we were able to get a ride back to my place. I had completely forgotten i had know way of turning about- so i keep this tale in my backpack so that hopefully it will help me to take stock before i head off in zeal.

[Captain Smollett]

Here on the tail-end of Earl, I am taking the chance to contemplate the past few days and what it means to this thread,

The kind of folks mentioned in this post were certainly around and creating their havoc.

The most unfortunate example of this is the lady who's husband was out of town; some of the 'naysayers' got her really frightened on Tuesday.  Luckily, he was able to cut his trip short and return.  He seemed to provide just the right counterpoint and the two of them, of course, managed just fine.

I'm interested, too, in the comments she herself made to me just prior to all of this; she told me that she does not like to listen to "them."  But sadly their force is very strong, and when they literally run down the dock nearly yelling "there's a WATCH in effect for US, we have a WATCH" three days before the storm even got here, and with her defenses already down, she got sucked into their mayhem.

But Craig's words

I am however, grateful that I have the choice not to listen...

rang true.

An ignorant man will talk at you, an intelligent man will talk to you and a wise man will talk with you.

Beautiful!  Saw this a few times this week, too.  Some of "them" just don't stop talking long enough to even hear anyone else's thoughts.  That is a great quote.

Finally, as The Hour (tm) approached yesterday, my daughter and I were on our way to West Marine to get a new piece of hose for one of my cockpit drains.  She and I had a long talk about how differently people reacted to the stress of the week.  We also talked a lot about making decisions and taking action from fear (which I think a few folks did) compared to rational thought.

(Incidentally, her reply was "okay, I'm a LITTLE scared, but I am mostly excited).

Fear is another common theme we've talked about here on sailfar and it permeates the behavior of the naysayers and pessimists...and those that listen to them.

[marujo_sortudo]

Reading this thread just made me stop and imagine how quiet the world would be if people only spoke when they knew what they were talking about...  :-X

[Captain Smollett]

I'm saddened by some remarks made by a friend of mine earlier today.  He was not really being a 'naysayer' (he was not telling anyone NOT to do something), a 'pessimist' (he was not telling anyone what could not be done) or 'someone who doesn't know what he is talking about' (since I guess what he was saying was technically true enough...on its face anyway).

But as a matter of boating 'philosophy,' I think it was patently 'negative' in the sense that it basically ignores some fundamentals of seamanship and self sufficiency.

The scenario: A lady and her husband are planning to travel South from here sometime in the coming weeks or months.  Their plans included getting to Florida, most likely via the ICW, then crossing to the Islands.

I was sharing with her some of my experiences regarding anchorages I have actually used, inlets I have actually used and places that I have "discovered the bottom."   I like to think I was passing on a bit of "local knowledge" from having traveled those waters.

Aside: a number of boaters have done this for me over the years and I am ALWAYS extremely grateful for the remarks.  I try to 'pay it forward' when I can (which is not very often, actually), but have found that few folks are even open to hearing.  Maybe they just don't want to hear it from me.  ::)

Anyway, so my buddy came in while she was jotting down a few notes on the back of a sheet of paper based on what I was saying.  I think we were talking Snow's Cut and the Cape Fear River when he came in.

Him: Why not just get a chart or a map, so you don't have to write stuff down?

(she then explained to him that even with charts, she likes to take notes, transfer them to the chart...it helps her plan her travels).

I was talking about the some places where it is VERY important to stay IN the channel...not to cut corners.

Him: Do you own a GPS?  If so, you will have no trouble.

(she then explained she DOES own a GPS, but she likes to 'look outside the boat' [I'm paraphrasing] and knowing places where particular attention needs to be paid is helpful to her).

After a few more minutes of hearing me make my own personal marina recommendations and the like, he piped up again:

Him:  Do you have Skipper Bob?  That's all you need.  It's all in there.

(she DOES have Skipper Bob and likes it, but she said she likes hearing from others, too).

I won't badmouth his seamanship (or mistakes he has made) directly, but these remarks just struck me as HIGHLY negative.  He went on to call me a "purist" in regard to my OWN boating style as if that is somehow a negative thing.  I think part of that was in jest, but there was an underlying negativity to it that said, to me at least, "take what John says with a grain of salt, no one really cruises like HE does."


??? ???   :'( :'(


When did "local knowledge" go out of fashion?  Just because we have a cruising guide, no matter how good it is, does that FULLY replace hearing the experience of those that have been there that we can interact with face-to-face?

[Tim]

First off Captain here is a grog for doing the right thing. 

I know exactly what you mean because I have the same kinda guy right down the street. He is quite sure the way he does it is the only way.

Yes he has done some sailing over the years, but in my opinion he is far from an expert. I have only been sailing with him one time, and he and his wife argued so much I would never go back.

It is very telling also that I have NEVER mentioned the forums I participate on  to him ;)

[CharlieJ]

John- I can say for sure that the crew of Tehani are ALWAYS happy to get "local knowledge", even if we do file it in the "probably, but we'll check for ourselves" category sometimes.

We had all of the info and materials you mention, I'd been through Snow's years before, so we knew what to expect, but we STILL somewhat surprised (amazed?) by the actuality of the place.

Keep on doing what you're doing. We do the same thing and have found most people are appreciative. Those that aren't really aren't worth worrying about.

[s/v Faith]

..Keep on doing what you're doing. We do the same thing and have found most people are appreciative. Those that aren't really aren't worth worrying about.

Agreed!

  Sounds like your friend has never been there, or was not wise enough to learn.  Sad caution for any reading this thread.. may none fall into this trap.

  (* the more shared about places like Snow's cut, the better)...  ;D

[Captain Smollett]

To his credit, he agreed with cautions about Snow's Cut and the Cape Fear area in general.  Sorry if I misled, but that just happens to be the point he came in.

We talked about waters from Beaufort down to Savannah.

His message started with "why write things down in notes, when you can look at graphical charts" and seemed to morph into "why listen to THIS GUY anyway, when perfectly good cruising guides contain all the info you REALLY need."

As he IS a friend, I don't think he meant any malice (intentionally), but I thought it was a strange vibe...like why bother talking to anyone when books and charts and gps's and chartplotters, etc have already done the thinking.

When I talk about this stuff to folks, I TRY to make my comments VERY specific to their style of boating and what I gather they want to get out of boating in a particular area.  Do they want to do a 'delivery' type run just straight through, slow down and see the sites, gunkhole, bar-hop, etc?  What is they are after?

I usually try to offer positive stuff that may make the trip more enjoyable to that individual.

Oh well...

[Frank]

I couldn't imagine not asking for 'local knowledge'. Typically more info than charts and usually a great "where to go to get?"at the same time. Her smart...him dumb  ;D   grog to ya

[CharlieJ]

And in addition, since cruising the entire gulf coast, and a portion of the east coast (and the Bahamas) you have no idea how many times we've found those charts and guides to be just plain wrong.

It's often many years between resurveys and new charts, and cruising guides only get seriously updated every couple of years. We've found info in the latest, up to date guides, that was FIVE YEARS out of date. And we have Skipper Bob- he ain't always right either- things change.

And charts that showed 6 feet of open water where we found ACRES of marsh, covered with head high marsh grass. An example is our local bay- the old ICW channel across it was discontinued and the markers pulled two years ago- the new charts just this year show the new channel, and not the old. But the locals all knew.

Local knowledge is not to be spurned and the Mark I eyeball is still the final word.

[Captain Smollett]

And in addition, since cruising the entire gulf coast, and a portion of the east coast (and the Bahamas) you have no idea how many times we've found those charts and guides to be just plain wrong.

It's often many years between resurveys and new charts, and cruising guides only get seriously updated every couple of years. We've found info in the latest, up to date guides, that was FIVE YEARS out of date. And we have Skipper Bob- he ain't always right either- things change.

And charts that showed 6 feet of open water where we found ACRES of marsh, covered with head high marsh grass. An example is our local bay- the old ICW channel across it was discontinued and the markers pulled two years ago- the new charts just this year show the new channel, and not the old. But the locals all knew.

Local knowledge is not to be spurned and the Mark I eyeball is still the final word.

Sadly, all of these points were made in some fashion and fell on deaf ears.  Counter remarks that were made:

** Skipper Bob's web site has "updates," so if you use THAT you are 'current.'

** The GPS 'charts' have been found to be more accurate than paper charts; never had a problem

I wonder if what is bugging me about all this is the apparent lack of "my boat, MY responsibility," or a seeming willingness to put the cruising guide or the GPS "in charge."

Example:  The lady said that she likes to have her Plan A (and maybe Plans B and C) mapped out in her head the night before...so that during the day, she does not have to worry as much about trying make decisions on the fly.

The dude this discussion is about said that around 13:00, he starts looking for a place to get to for stopping that night.

I guess there's no one "right way" to some of this, but my old "luck favors the prepared" line also seemed to fall on deaf ears.  There may be a time and place for full-on seat-of-the-pants attitude, but I guess having it be daily SOP strikes me as fraught with "bad luck."  This dude has had his share of "bad luck."

I'll just have to say "to each his own" when this comes up again...

(OBTW, yes, I DID get some sanding and glass work done today, believe it or not).