Bottom paint: Let's talk bottoms

[Bubba the Pirate]

Looks Great!   I'm thinking of a barrier coat next spring.   How did the Interlux go on? 

TrT

[AdriftAtSea]

It went on pretty easily, but you really need to stir it a lot to mix it up properly.  The other problem with it, is that since it is an epoxy-based finish... it is easier to apply when the temperatures are more moderate.  The working times are shorter with higher temperatures, but still fairly reasonable. 

[cgoinggal]

More questions??

RE-doing the bottom as the bottom paint I applied the beggining of last year was worthless.  Would like to bring the hull down to gelcoat and lead.  Here is my question:

on my Westerly Nomad I want the best paint for the bottom which is part glass and part lead (both keels are solid and unincapsulated).  I want it to stick and I want it to kill stuff. 

On my previous sailboat and my current one I always went with ablative paints before and now am wondering if nonablative would be better.  My Westerly is easy when it comes to labor as compaired to my last boat which was a nightmare to haul and repaint.  So the idea of repeating process every two - three years is no longer an issue.

We plan on being in relatively cool West coast of the United States water for the next one to two years possibly running between Puget Sound area and San Diego and then it is off to Chile.  So we would most likely repaint before heading to South America.  What is the best bet for paint?  We want nasty, nasty killing stuff and are curious about buying copper powder down in Mexico and adding it to a certain kind of paint that will last 10 or so years but know nothing about the process.  Will the copper react with my lead keels.  I can just see them melting or something :-)  Or should we go with something more standard? ???

Thanks in advance for the advice which is very much needed.
-L

[maxiSwede]

the 'real stuff'  copper powder and epoxi. I assume that there is a few different 'copper powders' around.

I am VERY interested in this product myself, but as yet haven¨t been able to get any first hand experience...

Anyone here ??

http://www.coppercoat.com/

[AdriftAtSea]

Funny you should ask...  I just put CopperCoat on my boat.  I had imported it from England last year, and finally got around to soda-blasting the bottom, barrier coating and putting the CopperCoat on the boat this summer. 

The boat has been in the water for almost four months, and there is nothing growing on the bottom as far as I've seen.  This year has been really bad for barnacles and such in my marina... yet my boat doesn't seem to be having any problems at all.

The real test will be to see how many years it lasts.  Several people who recommended the paint to me are going on six, seven and twelve years respectively. Their boats are in the water year round, which isn't the case with my boat.  It is currently out of the water for about five months of the year.

While CopperCoat is significantly more expensive than regular bottom paint, especially since I had to import it from England as Hazardous Materials via Air Freight,, if it works as claimed it will be worth every penny.  If you calculate the time it takes to prep and sand the boat and add the cost of bottom paint and multiply it by five, figuring that you have to do it once every two years—the time to prep and apply the CopperCoat and the cost of the paint is probably comparable. 

I'll keep you posted. If either of you have any questions regarding it, let me know.

[maxiSwede]

The real test will be to see how many years it lasts.  Several people who recommended the paint to me are going on six, seven and twelve years respectively. Their boats are in the water year round, which isn't the case with my boat.  It is currently out of the water for about five months of the year.

While CopperCoat is significantly more expensive than regular bottom paint, especially since I had to import it from England as Hazardous Materials via Air Freight,, if it works as claimed it will be worth every penny.  If you calculate the time it takes to prep and sand the boat and add the cost of bottom paint and multiply it by five, figuring that you have to do it once every two years—the time to prep and apply the CopperCoat and the cost of the paint is probably comparable. 

Great! It is true, what the company claims then. They referred to 'someone' who has had the 'paint' working like a treat for 10+ years. And you actually spoke to someone who can verify that. Great news. I am definetely going to have it before taking off on my looong cruise (circumnavigation?) next year. From where I live, it could probaby be an idea to take a cheap flight to the UK and then carry it over the border... just an idea. Or sail to the UK ,haul out and do the job there. In the Baltic all antifoulings containing copper is strictly forbidden due to environmental reasons. BArnacles grow as never before, and DIY boat-owners are fiddling with all kiinds of strange, and potentially hazardous stuff to make the bottom paint do what it's supposed to do... keep growth at a minimum.

[cgoinggal]

We may go for the coppercote.  If we do I will let you know how it was to order, etc.

I also know of a guy who effectively made his own coppercote by combining copper powder he bought in gallon cans from somewhere and mixed it with his own epoxy.
I met him in Mexico and watched the whole process and it seemed like it was substantially cheaper than buying the manufactured epoxy that already has the copper in it.  He covered a 53 foot stinkpot bottom with it.

I want to look into that as well (money saved is money earned ;-)

[maxiSwede]

I know of I guy here in Sweden who 'made his own'  Coppercoat too. He claims it to be fine. Sure is a few bucks to save. On the other hand, what  if you spend a couple of days struípping all the old paints off the boat, then apply your own 'mixture' just to find out a year later that it was crappy?   ???

[AdriftAtSea]

Cgoinggal-

I know several people who have tried to mix up their own version of it... however, there are to problems that I see with doing that. 

The first is getting the epoxy mixture right, so that it allows the copper to be effective, yet is still effective as a binder layer for the mixture.  The second is getting the copper in a fine enough form to work effectively. 

The copper powder supplied by AQM, the makers of CopperCoat, is very, very fine, finer than most dust is...and from their description and my observation of the stuff—spherical in nature.  The stuff would go through the filter bag on my hand vac, but not the HEPA filters on my bigger shop vac.  According to the manufacturer, the paint ends up being almost 85% solid copper after the paint dries.  This seems to follow with my observations of the stuff.

BTW, each liter of CopperCoat comes with a kilogram of powdered Copper.   The weight of the eight liters I bought was quite substantial, heavier than I had expected.

Also, the work involved in stripping off a failed version of an epoxy-copper anti-fouling home forumlation is going to be extensive.  Hard-epoxy based paints, especially ones that are basically epoxy with copper as a high-density filler, are probably going to be very difficult to sand off. 




MaxiSwede-

It would definitely make sense to get the paint in England and do the work there if you're planning on stopping in the UK.  This paint is less toxic than most other bottom paints from what I understand, since it doesn't have the same toxic compounds that are found in the normal bottom paints. Instead of using a toxic form of copper, the paint used pure copper, which doesn't leach as quickly into the water or environment. 

The ablative paints are far more toxic and dangerous to the environment IMHO.  I believe it also leaches far less copper products into the environment than the hard epoxy paints, given the fact that the more effective copper-based traditional anti-fouling paints have a fairly high proportion of copper-based toxins.... but become ineffective within two years as a general rule. 

[maxiSwede]

AdriftatSea-

Thanks for the additional info. Dunno about painting in the UK. My plan is to haul out here in Sweden next spring for a paint job and some additional refitting aswell. Seems a bit awkward to make another haul out two weeks later. In addition, haul outs and time on the hard is a lOT more expensive in the UK. On the other hand, practically everything sold by a chandler is cheaper...

IIRC it was 2 kilograms of copper pr litre of epoxi resin. I guess it weighs up a bit, yes.

[macdiver]

If you would like to make your own copper paint, google epoxyproducts (one word).  This manufacturer sells copper powder to add to epoxy.  The web site is a little difficult to navigate, but there is a page that discusses which epoxy to mix the copper into and suggests some mix ratios.  However, the site does not make any claim to the effectiveness of the suggested ratios.  All risks are born by the user.

[AdriftAtSea]

MaxiSwede-

I do believe you're right about the weight of the copper per liter... BTW, don't try carrying 8 liters of the stuff in a big plastic box... ;)  Since you're relatively close to the UK... you could always fly over for a weekend and buy it...and then pack it in your luggage and bring it back.  That really wasn't an option for me. 

Many of the websites seem to reference Copperpoxy, which went out of business a while back IIRC.  The three remaining major players in the copper-supsension paint market seem to be Aquarius Marine Coatings, makers of CopperCoat, and Synthetic Solutions Ltd., who make CopperGuard, and Benring Ltd., who make C-guard bottom paint.

[Toucantook]

I've found a source for .015" (and thicker) bondable teflon sheets, that is, one side is treated to accept adhesives. I've used this stuff before on the companionway slides for Toucan, which you can open with one finger the stuff is so slick. I've used both epoxy and cyanoacrylic glues on it, both with great results. Neither will even begin to stick on the untreated side. I'm thinking that if one were to cover the bottom of the boat with this stuff, fouling, if it could get a grip at all, would brush right off with virtually no effort. It would be the end of bottom painting. No pricey paint, no haulout fees, no yard fees, all of which seem to be going nuts lately. At $113.85 per 48"x48" sheet, the payback would take a few years, but after that....
I'm thinking I might do a test panel someplace where the fouling is severe, not hard to find down here in sunny Florida, and see what happens.

So, what do y'all think of this idea?

[CapnK]

I'll try it! ;D

(I would!)

How does the material hold up to UV exposure? Most of it wouldn't be affected, but the waterline would... Might be able to just have paint @ waterline, if it proves not good in the UV.

It would be an interesting experiment. You *can* get stuff to stick to Teflon (at least by baking it on), but you're right - you can knock it off pretty darned easy, too. Hmmm...

FWIW: I can grow barnacles pretty quickly on my Walker Bay, and they'll stick pretty good, but can be scraped off as easily as they do on fiberglass when still wet/fresh.

[Toucantook]

If I recall correctly, teflon is one of the few plastics that is pretty tolerant of UV.  My recalling correctly may be another matter....research may be in order.

[Toucantook]

Evidently, teflon is very UV tolerant, as I found some info regarding its use in UV lasers.

[CapnK]

Stuart -

If you want to, send me a small square & I'll tie it to the dock here and see how it goes. This place is like an aquatic farm, with plenty of silt- and biomass- laden water for wee nasties to feast upon... :D

[s/v Faith]

Brillant!

  I do like the idea of a 'test section' before you take the plunge on doing the hull of your boat.

  An added advantage I could see would be to apply this to your (hard) dingy.  Not only would it tow more easily, and stay cleaner, but when you put it on the foredeck the bottom paint would not mar your sails... and everything else!

Great Idea, hope it works out. (grog for out of the box thinking).  ;D

[Toucantook]

I'm thinking I'll get a single sheet of this stuff to see how it conforms to compound curves.  It does stretch some, since GoreTex is stretched Teflon.  That takes tons of tension, but I wouldn't have to do that much.  Conformity could also be accomplished by cutting "v's" into  the material as required.

Faith, that's another thing.  It would seem to me that would make one fast bottom!  Also, the stuff is waaaaay waterproof, thereby no osmotic blistering, ever.

Where ya at CapnK?   

[AdriftAtSea]

The stuff would definitely help prevent osmotic blistering, especiially if bonded to the hull using epoxy.  How thick is the stuff and how much does a 4' x 4' sheet of it weigh??

BTW, the Tenara thread used in making biminis, dodgers and sails is goretex and it is very UV-tolerant.