Refrigeration, Engel users, and others.....

[NOMN]

My solution:

http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HCR17W-Cubic-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B004R21JK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370808625&sr=8-1&keywords=haier+refrigerator

Ice trays!  :D
:D

[CharlieJ]

My solution:

http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HCR17W-Cubic-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B004R21JK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370808625&sr=8-1&keywords=haier+refrigerator

Ice trays  :D
:D

? ? ? Why ? ? ?

a year aboard my 35 foot tri with zero refrig, including ice, and 3 months in the Bahamas aboard Tehani with zero  refrig, including ice.

It gets to be a royal PITA for long term, away from the dock, cruising.

If it were me, I'd learn to live without. All I use ice for coast wise is to keep drinks cold anyway. NEVER have food in there.

[Captain Smollett]

115 V AC on the boat while underway?  Are you going to have a 115 V AC live system on your boat full time (ie, a generator)?

Listed spec is 315kW-hr per year, which roughly works about to about 3 amp per day....at 115 V.

That's an energy budget of 30 amp per day just for refrigeration.  That's not counting efficiency losses (upwards of 15% or so) if you run it off an inverter on a 12 V system.

An Engel can beat that if you think you really need refrigeration, AND they are designed to run on 12 V so they are more efficient.

However, I agree with Charlie on the need aspect.

[s/v Faith]

I love my Engle.

  Just sayin.....  ;D

[s/v Emerald Tide]

I love my Engle.

  Just sayin.....  ;D

Lots of emoticons these days...  Something in the water?  Chemtrails?  Chronic pesticide poisoning? GMO's?  Facebook overdose?

Just noting...   ::)

[rorik]

I love my Engle.

  Just sayin.....  ;D

Lots of emoticons these days...  Something in the water?  Chemtrails?  Chronic pesticide poisoning? GMO's?  Facebook overdose?

Just noting...   ::)

:o :o




  ;) ;D

[Grime]

I for one will have refrigeration on my boat when we go coastal cruising. I've thought about the 40 qt Engel but have decided on the ARB 50qt. Its a little cheaper than Engel but the reviews are just as good if not a little better than Engel.

I can't see going without refrigeration. Catch a fish eat half and throw the other half away. Its like driving a car in south Texas without A/C. Why suffer if you don't have to?

[Captain Smollett]

I can't see going without refrigeration. Catch a fish eat half and throw the other half away.

Just to play Devil's Advocate: Is this what people prior to about 100 years ago did?  

No.  They did not.  The human species survived quite well for somewhere around 1 million years without refrigeration.

And, I don't recall ever throwing half our meals away because we did not have a fridge.

The problem is the meme that refrigeration is NEEDED to eat or survive...or just be comfortable.  There are lots of things that simply do not need to be refrigerated to be kept safe and edible.  

Its like driving a car in south Texas without A/C. Why suffer if you don't have to?

Nor is it true that lack of refrigeration = "Suffering."

If you want a fridge on your boat...fine.  Cool.  More power to you.

But PLEASE to do not spread the myth that NOT having one is equivalent to suffering.  This use of "suffering" is largely a mindset, anyway.

These things are lifestyle choices; we trade the CONVENIENCE of refrigeration for something gained elsewhere.   I promise you we did not "suffer" by not having a fridge, and coastal SC/NC is every bit as hot as Texas, so it's not due to our climate being milder.

[Grime]

Yes human race has survived for a long time without refrigeration. They canned they dried meats, they milked cows daily to feed the baby just to name a few. For some reason that I can not explain I have not seen any cruising boats with meat or fish drying on the life lines. Where do they store the leftovers after a meal? Oh I know there are no left overs because they (2 of them) eat 12lbs of fish they caught today. What about milk. I know there is boxed milk what do you do with the 2 cups left after mash potatoes.  The blue water has a white spot. 

Since you don't have a frig and no fresh meat or chicken how about bacon. I know there is Spam. There's Roman noodles. Chef Boyardee all those gourmet foods that store without a need for a frig.   

Come on over to my boat for dinner anytime and I'll feed you what I eat. If you can get it down at room temp your a better man than me. But then I can get it down with no complaints through my PEG. My meal sure taste better cold.  ;D

Suffer might have been the wrong word to choose. For you not having a frig is a inconvenience for someone else its let me off this boat now.  Women like the comforts.

 

[Captain Smollett]

For some reason that I can not explain I have not seen any cruising boats with meat or fish drying on the life lines.

Where have you been looking?  I know cruisers how have done exactly this.

Where do they store the leftovers after a meal? Oh I know there are no left overs because they (2 of them) eat 12lbs of fish they caught today.

Food does not have to be kept that cold for a short period of time (a day or two) in most cases.  The bilge is often cool enough to store food for a short period of time.  Cook only what you can eat in one meal.  Eat only foods that can be stored without obsessive refrigeration.

There are many books on the subject.  Eric Hiscock's wife, Susan, wrote an excellent part of "Voyaging Under Sail" on this exact topic.  James Baldwin has given it attention in his writings.  Yves Gelinas solo circumnavigated on an Alberg 30 without refrigeration and yes, he caught (large) fish underway to enhance his diet with fresh protein.

What about milk.

What about it? 

It's an ethnocentric American idea that milk has to be refrigerated.  This is 100% a problem with the way the milk is treated to meet government regulations, and nothing else.  There are milk products that do not require refrigeration (and I find them quite suitable substitutes myself), and these are the norm in many parts of the world.

People in those areas would think we are nuts that we keep our milk in the cold box.

I know there is boxed milk what do you do with the 2 cups left after mash potatoes.  The blue water has a white spot. 

Why throw it away?  Save it.  It's simply a sold fear that this is a problem.  Good grief.  Milk in mashed potatoes has been COOKED (killing bacteria) and presumably, you will heat it again before you eat the leftovers the next day...killing bacteria.  Keep in reasonably cool (in the bilge, for example, out of the sun anyway), and just how fast do you think those bacteria are going to grow, anyway?

Since you don't have a frig and no fresh meat or chicken how about bacon.

Who said I don't have fresh meat?  We ate fresh meat all the time.  Are you planning to be away from markets, like on a blue water cruise?

Deep freezing meats and storing in a well insulated ice box (with block ice, and properly packed), and you can have meat for a couple of weeks.  We've done it.

Maybe that's not what you mean by 'fresh meat.'  But, even with a fridge, you are not going to buy 50 lbs of meat for a blue water passage and store it unfrozen for the duration of the passage.

Chef Boyardee all those gourmet foods that store without a need for a frig. 

This is just wrong.  We've lived aboard for 3 years without a fridge and cruised weeks at a time other times and NEVER ONCE ate Chef Boyardee.  The closest we came to that sort of thing was canned soups like Progresso, but by no stretch every day.

On a cruise, for example, we've enjoyed chicken piccata and trimmings.  That's just one example.

I don't know where you are getting your information, but it completely does not jive with my own experience.  We have eaten quite well aboard, and managed to throw leftovers away no more than we do living in a house with a fridge.   ::)
 

Come on over to my boat for dinner anytime and I'll feed you what I eat.

Better yet, come to MY boat and see how WE eat.  The fridge does not make the meal, the cook does.  My wife is a supremely good cook, and I do okay when it's my turn.

If you can get it down at room temp your a better man than me.

Not sure why I have to eat the meal at room temperature and what that has to do with having refrigeration on board.

No offense, but I think you are looking at the problem one dimensionally.  You are assuming that there is only one way to solve a set of problems.

A LOT of people cruise now and have cruised in the past without a fridge.  I don't care one way or another if you have a fridge on your boat...it's completely your business.  You don't have to justify it to me.

But...I do care that other people will read this, maybe lurkers who never log in to discuss it further, and leave with the idea that refrigeration is the ONLY solution the "food aboard" problem.  Quite simply, it is not.  There are other choices, and none of them lead to suffering or even discomfort.

This is what sailfar is, and always has been, about...dispelling myths regarding cruising in small boats.  This is a very classic example of such a myth...that one HAS to have a fridge to be either safe or comfortable.

My comments are aimed at those other readers, those that want to go cruising and wonder, "Do I need x on my boat?"

[Grime]

I can see that no matter what I say we would not agree on anything. What ever I say will be placed as a myth. 

I'm just a dumb old country boy that grew up without refrigeration until I was in high school.  I also lived in cow camps up in Montana without refrigeration.  No you don't have to have it.

How about some photos of boats out there with meats and fish drying on the life line? This would be neat to see.

[s/v Faith]

I can see that no matter what I say we would not agree on anything. What ever I say will be placed as a myth......

I have refrigeration.  I have cruised with it, and feel it is well worth the investment....

... Nothing beats a cool drink of water on a hot day.

[CharlieJ]

Never had refrigeration on a boat.

But I DO use Ice and have worked hard to make coolers that will hold ice as long as  possible.

I virtually never keep any FOODS cold, but man does that cold iced tea or a beer go great ;D And I detest milk, so if I HAVE to have some for cooking, I used dried. And dried mashed potatoes. ;)

I can well understand the desire for refrigeration- doing without is a personal choice, just like it's a personal choice to not use air conditioning here at my house.

[SalientAngle]

...of sweet Acidophilus milk and other goodies developed in north cackalacky... cheers !!!
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/fft/foodrich.htm

[Frank]

one Engel plus one 135W panel= cold drinks  ;D :o

not needed....but SOOooooo nice

[marujo_sortudo]

Well, we cruise largely without refrigeration.  With knowledge and relevant skills, it's easy.  We actually have a fridge, but it mostly gets used as an icebox to save amps.  Not a big deal for us as we mainly only eat meat fresh or when we can keep it on ice.  Can't believe Grime's claims on how hard living without a fridge is.  It's just different and takes more knowledge and a willingness to accept the tradeoffs.  My gal is proud of our new found knowledge and skills from living without one.  Heck, we've even talked about ripping out the condenser/compressor to have space in the lazarette for a folding bike which is high on her list.  Some foods become less convenient and you don't eat them as much.  Cold beer is dearly missed.  Lots of cruisers can/dry/smoke meat/fish.  Read a book or talk to a cruiser without a fridge some time.

[Godot]

Colin, my memory is probably failing me, but was it you and Anne who introduced me to Dark and Warmies?

[SalientAngle]

I'm just a dumb old country boy that grew up without refrigeration until I was in high school.  I also lived in cow camps up in Montana without refrigeration.  No you don't have to have it.

Can't believe Grime's claims on how hard living without a fridge is.

Obviously, I'm having a Missoula moment, but, marujo, are we reading the same prose???

[marujo_sortudo]

Yep, Dark and Stormy, hold the ice (because you don't have any.)

SA, I was reacting to a post two older than the one you're quoting.

[ralay]

"Why throw it away?  Save it.  It's simply a sold fear that this is a problem.  Good grief.  Milk in mashed potatoes has been COOKED (killing bacteria) and presumably, you will heat it again before you eat the leftovers the next day...killing bacteria.  Keep in reasonably cool (in the bilge, for example, out of the sun anyway), and just how fast do you think those bacteria are going to grow, anyway?"

As a microbiologist by training, I feel compelled to stick up for Grime a bit.  There are two types of food poisoning, "infections" in which the live bacteria are responsible for symptoms (ex~ Salmonella) and "intoxications" in which the disease is cause by a toxin secreted into the food by bacteria (ex~ botulism, Staphylococcus aureus).  In an intoxication, it makes zero difference if the bacteria are dead or alive upon consumption.  Furthermore, some of the toxins (ex~ S. aureus exotoxin) are highly heat stable and unaffected by the cooking temperatures required to kill bacteria.  In fact, autoclaving is not enough to deactivate many bacterial exotoxins.   

S. aureus is a ubiquitous bacteria that's a natural resident of the skin, nose, and throat of about 25% of humans and many animals.  It'll grow and produce exotoxin in temperatures from 39-115 deg. F, in up to 20% salt concentrations, and in the presence of nitrite preservatives.  It also produces a very heat stable exotoxin, 1ug of which will produce acute effects.  Deaths are rare, but you're going to be miserable for 1-3 days.  This is the microbe that most food safety folks probably have in mind when they're telling you to throw out your food after 2-4 hours without refrigeration.

If you have food that you haven't cooked to sterilization and kept sterile or at temperatures below 39 deg. F, recooking that food later will do nothing to prevent S. aureus food poisoning.  In your example, you cooked the food to begin with.  The question is, how well did you cook it and how good was your aseptic technique between heating and eating a day later.  Safe cooking recommendations are meaningless without a temperature and a time component.  You also need to know whether your recommendations are for killing all the bacteria or temporarily reducing them to a level below the "infectious dose" (the number of cells required for clinically significant infection).  I highly suspect that most public recommendations were formulated with the expectation that you will eat your food and put your leftovers in the fridge.  For instance, an article in Applied and Environmental Microbiology concluded that going from 1000 cells of Salmonella or Staph. per gram to nondetectable levels requires 45 minutes at 140 deg. F.  That's 45 min from the time the center of your mashed potatoes reach 140 deg.  It's also assuming that you cooked your meal once, let everyone serve themselves with their staphy little fingers and then recooked it.

Most people don't have great aseptic technique and don't want to treat every meal like a canning operation, thinking about pH, temperature, pressure, and time.  Most people just turn the stove on for awhile and say, "Meh, that's pretty good." I thin that's why most people have refrigerators, not because everyone drank the Kool Aid.  People lived for millenia without refrigeration, but they also probably puked and pooped their guts out occasionally when someone didn't reheat the mashed potatoes long enough. 

Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it's very relevant to living without refrigeration.  For the record, we've never had refrigeration on our boats, but we also tend to waste a lot of leftovers.  I think you have to weigh the improbability of getting sick against the seriousness of a crew member being incapacitated.  For a 2 person crew on an offshore boat, I usually try to cook small portions and throw out the extras.