Plumbing, flush and scrub: "Head-iquette" ;)

[Ol' Coot]

1 valve - toliet to overboard/tank
1 valve - tank to overboard/pumpout
1 valve - seacock to tank/toliet

Zen,

I think I would avoid plumbing the head to the fresh water system and eliminate that third valve.  That seems to be an invitation to disaster (think E-coli migrating up stream into your drinking water source).

If you want a way to flush out the waste system with non sea water, try "tee-ing" in a section of hose just inside the sea cock for the head intake thru hull.  The opposite end of this hose will normally be closed off with a cap or plug so you can get normal suction when flushing the head.  At the end of a weekend or cruise, when the water in your waste system will be sitting stagnant for a while (that's when the micro life forms in the sea water die and start to rot), close the sea cock and open the end of your "tee'ed" hose.  Drop the end of the hose in a bucket of fresh water and exercise the head, pumping the fresh water through your system.  This should displace the sea water in the system, and minimize the head stench mentioned by Adrift.  As a side benefit, you can add a little mineral oil to the last bit of water in the bucket before pumping it through the head.  This will lubricate the seals and valves in the head and prolong it's life.  Don't forget to re-plug the "fresh water intake" when you're done.

By the way, if you have raw water cooling for your engine, the same type of system can be used to minimize the amount of salt and scale buildup in your engine.

[AdriftAtSea]

Zen-

The way the head will be setup on Pretty Gee is as follows:

Head sink has a diverter valve ----> either overboard or to flush head

Seacock from ocean ---->  Diverter valve for water source  <------ drain from head sink

Head output  has diverter valve  ------> either to tank or overboard

Holding tank output has a diverter valve  ----->  either to pumpout deck fitting or to overboard via a Whale diagphram pump

Head output - overboard hose and the Holding Tank - overboard hoses are connected to the seacock via t-fitting. 

This allows me to flush the head with either fresh water, via the head sink or seawater.  This makes winterizing the head and holding tank pretty easy.   This also allows me to flush directly to the sea or into the holding tank.  Finally, it allows me to pumpout at sea or via a pumpout station. 

The parts in bold were added to the system...the rest was already in place and re-used.

[s/v Faith]

The way the head will be setup on Pretty Gee is as follows:....

....diverter valve

.....Diverter valve......diverter valve.....

......diverter valve......

Head output - overboard hose and the Holding Tank - overboard hoses are connected to the seacock via t-fitting....... 


The parts in bold were added to the system...the rest was already in place and re-used.

  Is this the way it is set up now?  4 diverter valves and a 'T' fitting?  wow.....

  Also, the 'T' fitting would allow you to pump the contents of the holding tank right back into the head (if the Joker valve leaks at all).  Might end up needing a 5th diverter valve for this system!   :o

  THat is a lot of valves, fittings, hose and clamps!  ;)

[Zen]

Dan that sounds as complex as the picture looked that was posted on the Ariel  :o

Sounds handy, but complex.

[AdriftAtSea]

I am thinking of putting the head output directly into the holding tank and then only having the diverter valve for changing the pumpout to the through hull or the deck fitting.... But I have to go down and look at how it all fits together. :)

That would leave it at:

Head sink has a diverter valve ----> either overboard or to flush head

Seacock from ocean ---->  Diverter valve for water source  <------ drain from head sink

Head output  ---->  Holding tank

Holding Tank output has a diverter valve  ----->  either to pumpout deck fitting or to overboard via a Whale diagphram pump, using existing diverter valve from the head output line that is already in place.  :D

[Auspicious]

I've been pleased with my set up.

The outlet from the head goes to a short length of pipe with a ball valve at each end. One valve opens to the holding tank and the other to a seacock overboard. Close the overboard and open the tank valve to flush to the tank. Open the overboard and close the tank valves to flush overboard. Open both valves to dump the holding tank (offshore) overboard. Very simple, very flexible, easy to maintain.

The pump out is a completely seperate fitting to the tank.

[Godot]

Has anyone seen or had any experience with the airhead composting toilet?

Some advantages over some other composting units, which I'm told are troublesome at best, is the seperation of solids and liquids which stop the tank from filling as fast and eliminate the need for a heater unit (from the pictures it looks like the liquid waste goes into an easily dumpable bottle).  A small fan must always be running; but that doesn't seem like that big a deal.  It also drastically simplifies plumbing and eliminates almost all the likely points of failure.

The big disadvantage I can think of is that for a liveaboard, sooner or later it is gonna fill up and need dumping.  Probably not a big deal for weekend use as a full season is apparently doable and the typical winter layup (I guess that doesn't happen in the south) gives it enough time to break down all the waste into harmless mulch.  But what about when it's time to empty the unit and it was last used six hours ago?  I haven't seen one, so maybe it just turns into a big bucket and chucket system while offshore (although you certainly don't want to accidently drop THAT bucket overboard).  I'm not sure how easy it is do deal with.

Hey, that disadvantage might turn into an advantage if it gets a lazy sailor out on the water more often for waste management!

Interestingly, from what I've been able to scrub from internet searches, it is really not a smelly system.  The exhaust fan pulling out the waste gases probably helps here; although placement of the exhaust might possibly become critical.

[CharlieJ]

Godot- here's a link to a LONG thread over on CSBB about the Airhead toilets

http://www.cs-bb.com/forums/csbbarchives1/index.cgi?read=7302

[Frank]

Speaking of heads.......My groco flushs well but will not pull water up?? Ya gotta use a bucket to fill/flush it but it pumps out great. Checked today and there seems to be very little suction @ the intake of the head when I pumped it.Now....before I go pulling this thing apart....any words of wisdom out there??? I'll trade some injector pump knowledge for a little advice on heads

[Godot]

It sounds rather promising.  Still, not quite sure how long term everyday use works (not that I live aboard, or anything, just curious).

Maybe I'll take the dimensions and bring them down to the marina next time I'm there.  Now-a-days I studiously avoid the use of the porta-potti as I don't want to bother emptying it.  It would be nice (especially on those rare times when my wife is aboard) to have a system I could use without regret.

[Godot]

Today I ran across a page which not only described one guy's experience with the airhead, but also about a simple way of setting up a holding tank that they call the KISS system.

http://www.sailcopress.com/editorial%20MSD.htm

Basic concept is that the holding tank is installed above the water line and waste is pumped to the top of the holding tank.  A short hose to the deck provides for deck pumpout.  Gravity to a seacock provides at sea dumping.  No Y valves.  A limited amount of hose required.  It seems like a very good idea, provided you have an elevated place to put the tank.

If I where to install something along the KISS line in my boat, the holding tank would have to be high and next to the hull just behind the head.  It would provide for good dumping while level or on a starboard tack (and maybe a port tack... would have to check it out); but I wonder at the effect of having 10 or 15 gallons of sewage (ten gallons of water would weigh around 83 lbs; I would think black water would be much higher) in that undesirable location.  Maybe if I could find just the right shape tank I could mount it at the bulkhead close to the centerline; but the tank would have to be tall and wide but no more that 6" or so deep.  And God help us all if it sprang a leak.

Anything which simplifies this matter has got to be a good thing.

[Lynx]

Here is a link -
http://cruisenews.net/db/pagetemplate.php?cat_id=16

Might be a problem in cooler climates. No experience.

[Norm]

Good day all:
Several good topics!

Seawater in the galley:  The basic idea is to have a through hull installed as far forward as possible and definately forward of the toilet dicharge.  Most yachts will have a sea water intake for the toilet that is suitable and can be T-ed into.

Flushing with fresh water:  We did that all the time on a certain J28 I sailed for years.  Such a practice keeeps the holding tank odors to a minimum.   We began the operation of cleaning the whole system after a pumpout by soaking the holding tank for a week in a solution of white vinegar and fresh water. Repeat often.  By summer's end, the "head smell" was gone.  (I applied the same energy to the bilges and freshened them up, too.)

To flush the toilet, we used the pressure water system and the head-shower faucet.  Spary enough water to flush the bowl and discharge lines.  A bowl of the toilet uses about one gallon of water.  (After each training cruise on Melissa, we pumpout and I do a similar fresh water+vinegar soak of the toilet bowl, hoses, and tank.  I keep the boat liveable... nay... comfy, comfy, comfy!)

The process is practical when coastal cruising.  Water and pump out stations are readily available.

Holding tank location:  we have a couple of boats in our fleet that have the holding tank installed above the waterline and in the cockpit locker area.  Gravity discharge is pretty slick!  (offshore, of course.)

Present "best practice" is to have the toilet discharge into the holding tank only.  Provide a discharge hose to the deck and to the sea via a pump.  We use the Whale Gusher pumps with good results, for example.  The discharge can be via a Y-valve or via a second discharge line from the holding tank.  I do not believe new boats even have sea-discharge abilities.

General thoughts:  Y-valves are notorious for jamming.  The shorter and straighter the discharge hoses the better.  White vinegar trumps chlorine bleach for evironmental and maintenance reasons.  Don't use cheap discharge hose!

I sailed a boat that had a composting head.  It was OK.  The system requires positive air pressure supplied by a solar powered vent.

Hope there is some useful information in all that.

My job is to frustrate Murphy every day.

Best,
Norman

[Captain Smollett]

Add a little vegetable oil now and then to keep the system lubed and seals fresh too.

Hmmm.

I've heard this from a lot of sources, but today I ran across an excellent article on boatbuilding.com:  Marine Sanitation: Facts vs. Fokelore

They clearly state this is a bad idea and why.

It's very interesting their comments about installing horizontal ventilation, too.  I saw on one of the Alberg 30 sites where someone installed a holding tank and they installed two horizontal vents.

[s/v Faith]

Add a little vegetable oil now and then to keep the system lubed and seals fresh too.

Hmmm.

I've heard this from a lot of sources, but today I ran across an excellent article on boatbuilding.com:  Marine Sanitation: Facts vs. Fokelore

They clearly state this is a bad idea and why.

  Good link John.  :)

I had not ever noticed that the original head installation that pre-dated the rules was grandfathered..... My original 1964 Wilcox Critendon head is still serving faithfully aboard Faith. :)

  Of course it is now run to a diverter valve that goes to a small (7 gal) holding tank with a pump out boss, or to the seacock to go over the side.  Interesting to note that it did  not have to be modified (I am sure that since it has been, it can not be legally put back... not that I would want to.)

WRT the other part of the post;

They clearly state this is a bad idea and why.

  FWIW, I believe it is good advice for plastic heads, mine however has been in service since 1964, and has been flushed with fresh water and vegetable oil after most underway periods and works well.

  The oil does lubricate the leather pump gasket.... and it works much more smoothly after it has been used.

I have not had to rebuild it yet, but I keep the tongue of an old boot onboard for just such an occasion.   ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I've finally gotten started on my  head-pumpout design change.  As part of my plans for outfitting the Pretty Gee for long-distance cruising, I wanted to provide a way to empty the holding tank when pumpout facilities were not available.

The way I decided to do it is as follows:

The head, which can be flushed with either raw water from a through-hull or with fresh water via the head sink, now pumps directly into the holding tank.  I cut the hose going from the holding tank to the pumpout deck fitting and added a diverter valve to the line.  In one position, the holding tank output goes to the pumpout deck fitting, in the other, the deck fitting is isolated and the holding tank output goes to a Whale Gusher diaphragm pump located next to the head itself.  The output of this goes to the large seacock and through-hull that was previously used for dumping the head directly to the ocean.

I also cut a hole in the top of the holding tank and added a clear Beckson inspection deck plate.  This allows me to check the volume of the holding tank, without having to open the plate.  It also allows me to open the plate to clean the tank or pour in chemical treatments.

While this setup no longer allows me to pump the head directly to the sea, I don't see that as a problem.  If I am far enough out that I could pump the head out to the sea, I can also dump the holding tank to the sea.  If I am too close to land to vent the head directly to the sea, as is often the case, since Buzzards Bay is a No Discharge Zone, I have to use the holding tank anyways. 

The main reason, at least as far as I know, for being able to dump the head directly to the sea was because there was no provision for emptying the holding tank outside of a pumpout facility.  Since  I can now pumpout the tank whenever I want, this shouldn't be a problem.

I hope to have the hoses and pump fully installed this weekend and will post photos when I get a chance.

[Captain Smollett]

In the throes of designing (from scratch) the head system for my boat, I'm curious about the holding tank configurations of the boats on SailFar.  This is one of those places where compromise really rears it's head (eh hum).  So,

What size is your holding tank?  Where located?

How emptied (deck pump out only, deck pump out or overboard discharge, etc)?

I've read 0.5 gallon per person per day capacity is adequate assuming it is only used for solid sewage. 

Has this been your experience with your system?

How many days before requiring emptying?  For how many people?

[Frank]

 There will be lots of opinions on tank sizes....most things are obvious...more people = bigger tank, keep tank low, blah blah. One thing I would recomend is a Y valve at your tank discharge with one hose to shore pump out and one to a pump to discharge overboard. I am sure others will disagree, but it gives you the option of NOT directly discharging into an anchorage but still pumping overboard later while 'offshore' in more open waters. Jubilee has a pump and it proved quite useful. It stops you fron 'cheating' while in more confined ereas. There are hand pumps just for that.If you need the model # I can get it tomorrow for ya.

[Captain Smollett]

Thanks, Frank.  I would like the model of the pump you use. Is it a Whale by any chance?  I've seen that one referenced quite a bit for this application.

The plumbing you describe is exactly what I plan.  There is NO WAY I will NOT discharge overboard when sufficiently offshore.  WIth 4 aboard, there's no other alternative.  My concern is having a large enough tank for extended stays near shore but out of range of a pump-out station (or just not wanting to pay for a pump-out every 5 days).

I WAS thinking about not including a diverter valve, however, and just simply plumbing the overboard discharge and the deck pump-out with separate lines off the tank. I've read that some do it this way, so I was wondering what the advantages/disadvantages of the two approaches are.  Seems to me at this point basically six of one, half dozen of the other.

The most common aftermarket A-30 holding tank is 14 gallons, which is a bit small for us.  I was hoping to get in the 20-25 gallon range - IF I can find a place to put it.  Today I saw a picture of one installed under the cabin sole (in the head area of the cabin) and it looked like it might be bigger than the 'standard' spot (under one side of the V-Berth).

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollett-

I just re-did the head setup on my boat.  This is what it looks like now. The head pumps directly into the holding tank—there is no option for pumping the head directly into the sea. 

The two diverter valves on the left of the diagram allow me to use either fresh water from the head sink or saltwater via the through-hull to flush the system. 

The diverter valve on the right lets me pump out via the deck pumpout fitting or via a Whale Mk 5 Universal diaphragm pump through the seacock and through hull. 

From my tests of the system the Whale Mk 5 Universal leaves about half a gallon in the holding tank, which I believe is mainly the contents of the hose flushing back when you stop pumping. 

Even though I can't discharge the head directly into the sea, I don't see that as a real problem, as if I'm far enough out that I could discharge the head directly to the sea, I can pumpout the holding tank to the sea instead.  This is far more useful IMHO than being able to discharge the head directly into the sea, as I can go out past the limit and empty the holding tank very easily, without having to find a pumpout facility or boat, or pay for it.  If I'm cruising in a remote area for an extended period of time, I can empty the holding tank as necessary, and don't have to pollute the coastal waters at all.

I wouldn't recommend plumbing the overboard discharge and deck pumpout lines separately, as most tanks don't have two pickup fittings, and you'd have to add one to the tank.  It can be difficult to add a fitting to a polyethylene tank, which most of the commercially available tanks are made of, which doesn't leak. 

Also, IMHO, the more fittings you have in the tank, the more chances you have of a leak.  The single hose from the holding tank pumpout on my boat goes to the bottom common input on a diverter valve that is higher than the top of the tank.  This prevent sewage from sitting in the diverter valve.