Weighted down, where do you put it all?

[oded kishony]

I have a friend who is an experienced sailor. He's thinking of doing some extended cruising after he purchases a boat. I've convinced him to consider a smaller boat which he now thinks is a good idea.

Our discussion recently has been about how much supplies one needs on a cruise. I imagine one needs enough to get from one port to the next, with some padding for the unexpected.

How much would typical supplies for two weigh, for a trans Atlantic crossing?

Oded Kishony



_{Edit to change thread title after merge}

[AllAboutMe]

Oded,
Starting with water, 1/2 a gallon a day per crew member. Water weighs 8.34 lbs per gallon. Three week crossing/ 10.5 gallons per crew /83.4 lbs.
I've heard conversations that 1000 lbs per crew member is not unreasonable for an Atlantic crossing. I don't remember the source, nor can I vouch for the accuracy, but based on the supplies we load for a four day jaunt on the 8.7, it doesn't strike me as overly stated.
Larry

[Fortis]

Amongst other things it depends on budget and probable route...as well as personal tastes.

If you hop via the Cannaries and other islands along the way then you will need fewer supplies but a healthier credit card (the prices in those places are not cheap...)

If you weant to take the north circle route and not drop in on Greenland then you are going to not have a lot of shopping opportunities till Iceland and  Faroes (also both not cheap).

The thing is that you do not NEED to carry supplies for the whole jaunt and an emergency reserve. You can opt to plan on stopping along the way, but carrying enough supplies to make it all the way across if you should happen to "miss" the island you are aiming for. That is then your emergency supply. Redundency is good, tripple redundency is overkill on a small boat.

A fellow endeavour owner who sailed his 26 footer all over SE asia for three years quickly came to the conclusion that the best thing he could do was find someone to offload about 60% of his staples and food stock to. This gave him a chance to restock regularly with fresh and local produce that he got to sample, and lightened the boat to improve performance in a noticable way.

He said that after a few months, his opinion on the Hiscock and Pardey books he had read to prep himself and his boat began to change and he concluded that maybe you need that level of overkill for a heavy little boat like Serrafin...but for 2.5tons of GRP boat that responded well to the wind and conditions and did not try and fight them out of shear inertia, a great deal of the backups were just extra weight and clutter (not sure I agree with him...but we shall see).
he got clobbered bya few really impressive storms while he was out there and basically said that a good anchor system is a far better investment then backups of all halyards etc.

Anyway, some notions to ponder.

[Captain Smollett]

I've read 1/2 gal water per person per day is considered a minimum for drinking and cooking (you are supposed to drink 8 8 oz. glasses of water a day).  So, if you want some for washing, etc., you may want to double that to 1 gal per day.  Something in between is propbably more realistic and acceptable, though.

One may also want to factor in mass in the form of books and other entertainments for a long passage.

[CharlieJ]

I recently read where the "8 glasses of 8 ozs per day" had been rescinded. Seems the medical profession realized just how silly it was. Way to broad a brush. If it's cold out and you aren't doing much you don't need anywhere NEAR that amount, If it's very hot and you are working hard, that may not be half enough.

I got dehydrated once ( I'll NEVER let that happen again) and the doctor told me to watch my urine. If it was clear at least once per day I was adequately hydrated. Otherwise I needed more fluids. I've used that yardstick for close to 40 years now with quite good result.

One trick the SCCA people have mentioned is washing clothes in ammonia water, with no rinsing. Just hang them up to dry. Claim is that there is no smell, the clothes are softer and it of course uses much less water. You can also use a certain percentage of salt water for washing. Not clothes- takes to much fresh to get the salt out. But dishes, vegatables, some water in cooking ( boiling spaghetti, etc) can use salt water just fine.

[Captain Smollett]

I recently read where the "8 glasses of 8 ozs per day" had been rescinded. Seems the medical profession realized just how silly it was.

My wife is a doctor; she has apparently not heard of this rescinding - or at least she has not mentioned it.  I'll have to ask her about it.

Way to broad a brush.

Like just about everything in the medical profession, it is based on statistics - especially averages.  If an "average" person (as determined in some set of studies) requires X amount of water per day, that will be the recommedation.  Some will lie above or below.  What's not reported with that recommendation is the spread of the distribution.

I got dehydrated once ( I'll NEVER let that happen again) and the doctor told me to watch my urine. If it was clear at least once per day I was adequately hydrated. Otherwise I needed more fluids. I've used that yardstick for close to 40 years now with quite good result.

I've heard that if you FEEL thirsty, you are technically dehydrated.  So, based on that, you should drink (sips) often enough so that you never feel thirsty.  I've also used the "urine guide" for many years.  For me, it takes a surprising amount of water to keep my urine clear.

What I mean by "technically dehydrated" is that your brain and other internal organs are not getting enough water.

I agree 8 8 ox. glasses per day seems like a lot.  But I will also say that I can absolutely notice the difference in how I feel on days when I drink MORE water than I think I need compared to days that I take a drink only after feeling thirsty.  I know, I know, that's anecdotal and therefore next to meaningless.

One trick the SCCA people have mentioned is washing clothes in ammonia water, with no rinsing. Just hang them up to dry. Claim is that there is no smell, the clothes are softer and it of course uses much less water. You can also use a certain percentage of salt water for washing. Not clothes- takes to much fresh to get the salt out. But dishes, vegatables, some water in cooking ( boiling spaghetti, etc) can use salt water just fine.

In his book Cruising Under Sail, Eric Hiscock also recommends dish washing in salt water.

Good tip about the ammonia water for washing clothes. I'll have to try that one.

[CapnK]

Good original question, Oded! Great food for thought... no pun intended. ;D (Of course, tell your friend about us here. :) )

I know that many SB/LD cruisers whose books I have read talk about cramming supplies in every nook and cranny just before long crossings, and I've wondered while gazing into my boat how it would all fit. I've been tempted to get an appropriate amount of food stores and load it all into the boat just to see... :D

Just playing with figures to see what comes out:

Going solo and based on 1/2 gal per day, 30 gallons of water would allow 2 months at sea, maybe more if supplemented by rain or filtering. 2 months of making 90 miles a day (4 kt average with a little to spare) gives a range of 5,400 miles, at a weight of just over 250 pounds for the water. That range should get you to most destinations with a bit to spare. :)

An equal amount of food weight to water weight per day would be slightly over 4 pounds of food per day. That sounds like a lot, especially considering that backpackers (who are physically carrying *all* of their equipment) can get by on long trips with less than half that amount of food weight per day. They do, however, plan meals based on weight (at least the smart ones do :) ), so they generally carry high energy-density foods. Also, some of that 4# weight could be taken from the water weight (ie water to boil rice or pasta, rehydrate foods, sauces). However, maybe that is a good average to use just to 'ballpark' the guesstimates here? If so, then water + food stores would be around 500#s for 60 days at sea for a single person.

Out of 1000#, that would leave 500#s of weight for gear, books, beer, rum, music, and fishing poles. :D

So it seems that the 1000# per figure is generous, perhaps to a fault. I'm interested to see what others have to add to this discussion...

Regarding the "8 8's", I have never been able to stick to that, I just don't need that much water, according to what my body has told me over the last 40 years... :) I have seen that that figure was revised, and that the amount needed for hydration varies greatly per person, and according to activity and other factors like environment. I think that simply drinking more than it feels/seems like you need is probably a good rule of thumb. We're individuals, it follows that the amount of water our particular bodies need to be happy and healthy would be individualized as well. :) Clear pee once daily sounds about right to me, simply based on familiarity with my body.

Ammonia water for washing clothes? Haven't seen that. What's the ammonia do - act as a cleaner? Allow the clothing to dry in a humid saltwater atmosphere? I'll have to try that, too.

Isn't there a high concentration of ammonia in urine? Well, then, one could 'recycle'.... Ah, no, I don't think so! ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I believe the water requirements for the races, like the Newport-to-Bermuda, state one gallon per person, per 100 miles of distance.  So for a passage like the northern route to England, which is about 3200 nm, you're looking at 32 gallons of water or so.   If you look at a 50% surplus for emergency use, that's about 400 pounds of water. 

One estimate I've read for long distance cruising is that each crew member adds 1500 lbs in gear, equipment, and personal possesions.  This is prior to any food or water required for a passage.  I believe this figure includes the crew member's weight.  :D

Food is a bit lighter—especially raw staples, like pasta, oats, flour.  Meat and canned goods are a good deal denser, but more energy rich as well.  A lot of the basic staples require water to cook or re-hydrate them, which is why I think the ORC requirements go for 1 gallon per day, rather than the 2 qts per day figure found in many other recommendations. 

I also think that racers will generally have higher water requirements than cruisers. 

I am guessing that you could get away with about 500-600 pounds for the food and water for a trans-Atlantic passage from New York to Southhampton, England.

As an emergency supply, I would add high-density energy rations, like those the military uses,  with about 20 days worth to act as a backup.

[Norm]

Greetings to all.
Presently I am prepping a 35 footer for a three-crew transit to the BVI from Boston.  The food stores are littering our dining room.  Here's what I found by measuring the litter.

I pack food in three-day sets.  Three people eating the planned two "family style" meals plus two snacks each day for three days results in 60 pounds of food.  Basically, that is a paper grocery bag of food weighing in at 20 pounds per person for three days.

I reckon that I am over-provisioned by about 50%.  Caveat... One of my crew is my dear Elizabeth who recently agreed to discuss ma.... ma.... ma.... a serious long term relationship between two folks old enough to know better. 

I don't want to screw up by UNDER provisioning.

It is an observed fact that the ocean voyaging portion of a sailing adventure doesn't involve too much eating.  Who wants to do the prep and dishes?  This from a guy... me... who cooked every darn meal from SF to Papetee and did the meal planning.

My pal, Ryan the Crazy South African, and I sailed the same 35 footer up from the BVI a few years ago.  We provisioned in St Thomas for a couple hundred bucks, ate one darn good meal a day, had plenty of coffee or tea to supliment, and each knocked back a few novels over the course of fifteen days.  Guys.

Net result, a gallon of water and a few pounds of food per person per day do just fine.

Plan ahead.
Take plenty to read.
Look after personal hygene.
CDs are good....very good.
Protect your blanket from getting wet!

Oh yeah.... that anchor comment was right on.  I must get my pal Enzo to join up and write.  He did England to Barbados on a Hunter 29.  Right, a Hunter 29.  He must tell the story but there was something about a surge on day somewhere exotic  that created a wave which parted his rode and put his boat on the beach.  Enzo, being resourceful, fixed it and kept going.

That's a small boat voyager.  And he's new to sailing.

Best,
Norman
Boston

Footnote:  Once ashore, Enzo and I could easily find our way through a bottle of claret and ten pounds of food over the course of an evening in Barbados where we shared sea stories, lies, and more stories.

[AdriftAtSea]

Hey Norm-

Congratulations, let us know how that turns out...  ;)

BTW, If you're ever looking for crew, let me know.. This fall is out, as I'm recovering from major surgery at the moment, and my boat has been hauled out for the season.  :( 

Dan

[AdriftAtSea]

On a recent thread, someone was pondering where he would put a hookah air system on a small boat.  That's one of the challenges of being a small boat sailor.  The art of living in a small space, while not giving up the things that make life worthwhile.  Where do you put all the stuff you want to carry along?

On a large boat, it is easy to stuff a folding bicycle, a few scuba tanks, a hookah rig, a wind surfer, a kayak and such into the different storage areas, especially if you're sailing short-handed and don't fill all three cabins with people.  :D 

Earlier this summer, I got a chance to go aboard a 46' boat—a Morris or something like that.  It had a "wall unit" that was setup for the CD collection, with somewhere around 300 CDs on the wall, in jewel cases.  They had a 37" LCD TV, and a generator to power it.  It was probably bigger than the apartment I had in college, and a lot more nicely furnished.

I've got more music, but most of it is stored on a 40GB iPod, with the rest on my laptop and an external portable drive, all of which takes up a tenth the space, if even that much.   I don't ever see a need for a TV that big or a generator.  Fuel is expensive, heavy and takes up space—solar panels just take up space. Even better, the stereo system I just picked for the Pretty Gee has an iPod interface on it, so I don't really need the laptop or external drive for all that much anymore—just have to put more music on the iPod.

One of the owners of a sister ship turned the port side settee into a storage area for his fishing gear and tools. Unfortunately, he was not wise enough to run this by his wife, who is still mad at him from what I understand.  I'm converting the port side settee to a working sea berth, with lee boards and such, and turning the space below the port side of the cabin table in to a storage area. 

Here are some of the other things I have aboard the boat that were challenging to store aboard:

2x  130 Watt Solar Panels that measure 60" x 28"
4x  Fishing rods, two of which are 9' long and one which is 10' 6' long
The tools and supplies I use for doing modifications to the Pretty Gee

Things I have to figure out where to store:

Food and stores for longer passages
Additional water
Additional fuel
My camera equipment, long-term

Things I would like to have aboard eventually:

A hookah rig (which I see as being far more useful than scuba tanks)
A folding bicycle—ground transportation that's a bit better than the shoe leather express
A barbeque grill
A second outboard motor, for the dinghy, which is currently human powered

Things I don't see ever having aboard:

A large TV, as I can watch TV or DVDs on my laptop, as I have a USB TV tuner for it
An air conditioning unit
A generator
A washing machine or dryer (yes, I've been on a boat that had a washing machine and dryer on it)

Part of the challenge for me is that my trimaran has a lot less usable space than a similarly sized monohull in many ways, while the cabin is roomy, there is no storage under the settees or berths and no storage in the bilge, since it is only about two inches deep. That is part of the reason I'm modifying the cockpit and adding the bridgedeck to it—to reduce the volume of the cockpit, increase seating and to give me more storage space.

That's just one more of the challenges for the small boat sailor, and part of what makes cruising on a small boat more of an art form than doing the same thing on a bigger boat. 

What do you have on your boat that was difficult to find storage for?

What do you wish you had on your boat, but can't figure out where to store it? 

What creative storage solutions do you use on your boat?

[Captain Smollett]

That's one of the challenges of being a small boat sailor.  The art of living in a small space, while not giving up the things that make life worthwhile.  Where do you put all the stuff you want to carry along?

That's one of the challenges of living on a boat, period,  *IF* the boat is planned on being used independently (ie, away from civilization).  It is my observation that boats with a lot of junk on board are not set-up for passage making (though they may make passages successfully), but are geared toward shore-based life.

I think part of the trick in the general sense is to carefully define "the stuff you want to carry along."  "The things that make life worthwhile" may be defined quite differently by those of us on SailFar than on other forums.  For me personally, I really don't need a lot of "stuff" to be happy.  As I get older, I am finding I am actually happier with less "stuff."

Earlier this summer, I got a chance to go aboard a 46' boat—a Morris or something like that.  It had a "wall unit" that was setup for the CD collection, with somewhere around 300 CDs on the wall, in jewel cases.  They had a 37" LCD TV, and a generator to power it.  It was probably bigger than the apartment I had in college, and a lot more nicely furnished.

I have no desire to try to turn my voyaging boat into a smaller version of my land-based house.  They serve different missions.  My house is about putting down roots and gathering things that make it feel "stable."  My boat (current or next) will be about mobility and seaworthiness/safety.  I can see the following downsides to adding a bunch of amenities to a boat on which I will live and make passages:

• More stuff in the way when repairs have to be made.  If at dock, no problem; just unload.  But if at sea, where are you gonna put all the junk while trying to track down a leak or some such?  Clean design and clean implementation is my goal.  In other words, the old SailFar KISS idea.
• More stuff that needs maintenance. There is already "enough" stuff on a boat that requires time to maintain just to remain safe.
• I would prefer the focus be on what is OUTSIDE the boat - birds and other wildlife, people, cultures, natural landforms, the clouds in the sky, the sea itself, etc.  Some of the stuff mentioned lean toward that end, but given the maintenance issues, I think one is lessening the "fuller experience" by adding stuff intended to further "enjoy life."
• I'd rather hear my daughter sing than listen to a CD.  I'd rather play a game with my children than watch TV.  We *DO* enjoy movies, but we don't NEED them.  I have absolutely NO intention of putting this stuff on the current boat, and doubt I will on my next one either.
  
  Though I will say that the iPod idea is a good one, imo.  They have a high 'density.'  A LOT of music in a small space = good idea for a boat.
  
  As an aside, I absolutely HATE when some pulls into an anchorage or dock site with music blaring on board.  Part of the reason I want to go voyaging, and part of the reason I'm drawn to the small boat, SailFar version of the 'lifestyle' is to GET AWAY FROM CIVILIZATION.  I hate traffic, I hate crowds, I hate "human-noise," etc.  I want to find me a nice little island or village where life is simpler.  That's just me.

Here are some of the other things I have aboard the boat that were challenging to store aboard:

2x  130 Watt Solar Panels that measure 60" x 28"
4x  Fishing rods, two of which are 9' long and one which is 10' 6' long

Break-apart fishing poles, telescoping fishing poles or the use of a handline might be solutions to the fishing gear storage problem.  I know some anglers cannot stand two-part fishing poles, but storage vs. function is about compromise.

The tools and supplies I use for doing modifications to the Pretty Gee

Again, this one is about compromise.  For many of us, especially those that plan to use whatever skills we pretend to have (CJ excepted, of course, his skills are apparent  :) ) to supplement the kitty, this will be one area where something else will have to go.  We can look at our tool set with a critical eye and try to determine what we REALLY need and pare the set down, but I suspect for most of us, it will be a choice like "less movies = more tools" or "no bicycle = more tools."

Things I have to figure out where to store:

My camera equipment, long-term

I suspect that with your photography background, your camera stuff is like "tools."  Something else, perhaps an amenity, will likely have to go.  Though very into photography, I plan to take minimal gear.  A camera body, a couple of lenses.  That's about it.

Things I would like to have aboard eventually:

A hookah rig (which I see as being far more useful than scuba tanks)
A folding bicycle—ground transportation that's a bit better than the shoe leather express
A barbeque grill
A second outboard motor, for the dinghy, which is currently human powered

I've done a fair amount of back-country hiking and taken a fair number of inexperienced hikers on bushwacking and trail trips.  The single biggest mistake newbie hikers make is TOO MUCH JUNK.  They overload themselves with stuff they THINK they need.  I've read the hiking mags, too, and like the sailing mags, they all have LISTS of stuff you CANNOT DO WITHOUT.  Rubbish.

The rule of thumb I use when packing a pack, and am applying to boat-planning, is to score each item by convenience * (number of likely times it will be used).  High scores result in higher priority items.  That is, an item might be darn mighty nice to have, but if I only plan to use it once every three weeks it may not be worth it.  An item's score can be further lowered if

• another  needed/wanted item with similar or better score must be omitted to make space
• it is in the way while being stored (nothing on a small boat is EVER completely out of the way

Stuff like this (bicycle, grill, etc) is up to each individual to 'score' its convenience vs. inconvenience factors.  How much food to you have to sacrifice to bring that bicycle?  Is that worth it to you?  If so, bring the bike.  If not, the bike stays home.

Whether your boat is 20 ft or 60 ft, these decisions are always trade-offs.

That's just one more of the challenges for the small boat sailor, and part of what makes cruising on a small boat more of an art form than doing the same thing on a bigger boat. 

I don't know that it really is that much of a challenge.  I think what you will find in these responses is a different mentality/philosophy in what is NEEDED/WANTED aboard.  Big boat owners seem to have the idea that they have to have a lot of stuff to make cruising enjoyable. Those of us who CHOOSE smaller boats seem to gravitate more toward a different lifestyle.  There are different priorities and goals for the small boat sailor. 

What creative storage solutions do you use on your boat?

The most important storage solution I have is not even ON my boat: the trash can.

[castawaysailor]

Well, I am getting ready to leave; it has been a challenge to pack the boat for offshore sailing and carry what I need.  I have a NorSea 27, a true cruising boat of 8 ft. beam.  On my previous boat, a Westsail 32, I could nearly play handball below and store enough equipment for a major league hockey game.  But, times have changed and this is the boat I can truly handle in nearly any conditions.

I have the normal boat stuff, boat tools, anchors and such.  Also have the food and clothes; this all fits.

This weekend, I have ordered an Engel 27 refrigerator, this will be stored in the head area.  I also ordered a Porta-bote because I do not have enough room aboard for a hard dink or a good inflatable ; unless it is stored on the foredeck and I refuse to do that.  I also ordered a solar panel; have three batteries totalling approx. 300 amp hrs. and I carry a laptop, radio/CD, receiver for weatherfax and BBC broadcasts.

Taking up a considerable amount of my extra space is my wildlife photography equipment and pelican cases to keep it dry.  Also have a desktop PC, printer, dual monitors, etc for my photo editing-this will be a challenge to store and a challenge to use away from shore power.

[Fortis]

The things we have to worry about "storing" on board is 85kg of newfoundland dog and our baby son....Neither of whom will remain stowed in a sensible position without the application of bungee straps and packing nets....And then the noise of complaints will be an issue.

On a more serious note, we have found the huge stroage area under the aft deck to be brilliant for bulk storage of staples and neccesities. Waterproofing the hatch for this to be truly usefull is somewhat challenging but worthwhile.


Alex.

[castawaysailor]

Fortis;

85 kg of dog, wow, that is alot of dog; just wait until you baby son is 85 kg and 6' 2" :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Alex-  That's a big doggie.

Capn' Smollett-

I agree that trying to have the comforts of a land-based home in a small sailboat is essentially a ridiculous goal.  I also agree that minimizing gear is the best way to go, and have been working towards that goal.  There is a significant difference between want and need, and what are necessities and what are luxuries.  The bike and the hookah are luxuries IMHO, and not necessities.  The camera equipment, at least for me, is a necessity.

As for the music, the iPod is loaded with music from Gee's vast collection of CDs...and is one of the way I keep in touch with her since she passed away.  I can't see risking her original CDs on a boat, or having the space to store them—so I did the next best thing and put them on what would have been the ultimate gift for a music fanatic like my late wife...a 40GB iPod.  I don't like listening to music at very loud volumes, as I'd prefer to retain my hearing for future use, and I also don't believe my musical tastes should necessarily be inflicted on people unfortunate enough to be nearby.  Gee used to laugh at the fact that she married a completely tone-deaf, musically uninclined person.

Castaway- 

I think you'll really like the Engel M27.  It's the unit I've had since April, and I've really been happy with it.   I also really like the Portabote, and find that it rows pretty well, and handles quite well under power, though I don't normally have an outboard for mine.  The solar panels are great, but you have to make sure the installation is done properly.   I would highly recommend getting a charge controller for the panel.

[Frank]

I think the real question here rather than 'where do you put it all?' should be 'what do you really need/use?' We all tend to over pack,over prepare and generally over do it. My 1st time 'cruising' I took WAY too much stuff !!....Next trip less...next less again. Last winter I spent 9 weeks on the boat and when unloading realized there was still LOTS that did not get used.If you are living on your boat at a marina I can see TV's,microwaves etc etc....but out cruising you are generally exploring or visiting during the day or below reading if you get rained out.Our needs are really simple. I plan to spend less time on where to put it all this winter and some real serious thought into what I am really going to need and use. Hopefully after doing the minimalist approach...packing will be easy. Besides...ya always buy a Tshirt etc on route as souvenirs anyway.

[Zen]

Capn' Smollett & Adrift agree  :o   ;D ;D ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I notice that Zen doesn't how he stores stuff on s/v Zen...but he did say that his boat has a TARDIS modification, so space shouldn't be an issue for him.  ;)  Besides, he'll be too busy teaching sailing to go cruising now...  ;)

[s/v Faith]

I think the goal is minimizing the shore based garbage aboard.. not trying to fit it in.

  Something to think about.

  Kurt wrote something I think about allot when dragging stuff aboard.  It was something like that the need to carry more stuff is basically rooted in fear.  Why do you need every possible repair item in triplicate.....  ???

fear.