Two Dog Nights: Cabin Heat In Winter

[s/v Faith]

......Questions to be answered:
1. is my Coleman Catalytic Heater working better than yours?  Could yours have been damaged somehow?
2. is my CO detector not doing its' job?
3. could, uh, well... that's all I can think of at the moment.

  Good point (questions) Adam.  Reading this post, I seem to remember using the heater once when we first had the boat and not having experienced the problem.  It seems like a pretty simple peice of gear (just a valve, a metering jet, and some batting (fiberglass?) inside a metal bowl with a grill.... but there is some corrosion on the grill... maybe something is causing it to 'run rich'?

[Godot]

An interesting study here.

The following is a summary of CPSC staff's findings on the testing of the catalytic heater:

• The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.


• When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen.


• As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to 64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further increases the degree of hypoxia.

I only skimmed through the report (I'm at work); but the big danger seems to be from running out of oxygen not carbon monoxide (although CO poisoning is not completely eliminated as a hazard).  There is combustion, so common sense dictates that a vent needs to be  open.  I wouldn't think you would need to have both hatches opened wide, though.

The good news is that you will probably notice if the O₂ gets thin, even if sleeping (personally, I don't think I'd run the heater after lights out).  And once you get into fresh air you will probably take a few deep breaths and recover quickly.  CO poisoning is a much nastier prospect.

[Mr. Fixit]

Untill I find a heater I like I am going to try to get by with a Honda 2000, and a electric heater. I am sure once I get out there I will find something I like

[AdriftAtSea]

If you're going with an electric heater, I'd highly recommend the big oil-filled radiator style heaters, as they probably have the lowest risk of fire.

[CapnK]

Craig -

I've used the catalytic Colemans a good bit onboard. I do have a CO2 monitor, & it has never gone off. Late this winter, it's battery died, and literally within a day or two I used the catalytic heater, and something was 'different'. I regret that I didn't have good batteries in the detector; I do think it might have gone off that night.

Normally, the catalytic heater is odorless and quiet. That night it was hissing a bit, and had some smell, both of which I noticed, and so was on the watch for problems. After an hour or so, I had a slight headache and some dizziness, so I shut it off. For some reason, I don't think it lit properly or fully, and that made it not work as it should have. All the other times I've used it, there have been no problems or 'symptoms' like that. Hypoxia or too much CO2, I don't know, durnit...

I have noticed that initially at least, they do not light fully, it takes a couple of minutes. The catalytic converter screen has platinum threads in it I think, and until they all come up to temp, I don't think it operates at full efficiency, and thus some fuel escapes unburnt, and it may well be putting out some CO2.

This is not scientific, and is a good bit of guesswork on my part. Overall, my experience with them has been good.

That said, the best heater with regards to fuel costs and efficiency seems to be a good sleeping bag, and the best strategy, and the one I intend to personally pursue, is to go to where good ol' Ma Nature provides the heat, and I can stow the sleeping bag away... ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

CapnK-

I had a slight headache and some dizziness,

These are common symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.

[CapnK]

These are common symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.

Yeah, and I am wary of that, so when I had a suspicion that the heater was not working as it has every other time I've used it, I 'monitored' myself, and once I noticed those symptoms, shut it off.

[Frank]

 Found this on the Flicka 20 site. Came with great reviews.Small,light and easy on fuel.Fairly cheap too. Arigo 1500   http://www.swego.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=33&idproduct=70

[AdriftAtSea]

Main problems with heaters like this are:  1) they create a lot of moisture inside the boat, since the exhaust isn't vented externally; 2) there is always a risk of CO poisoning.

[Frank]

true...    A guy could spend a grand + installed for proper furnaces with a proper venting chimney cut through the cabin top.In the pacific north west that makes perfect sence.I figured for $130 this was a nice lil heater that was portable, efficient,multiple owner recommended,used achohol not use propane=safer,less condensation and no gas settling in the bilge. Figured it would be great to take the chill out on a cool morning......with the hatch open slightly. ;D  Guess I should have been more specific as to the intent of my sharing of this neat little find.

[AdriftAtSea]

LOL... yeah, for that it would probably be fine... :)

[CharlieJ]

Good subject. Laura and I are looking at various heaters for exactly that- to take the chill off the cabin at night, and first thing in the mornings. We would never consider sleeping with one running.

We've found that our kerosene stove heats the cabin quite nicely, in conjunction with the oil lamp if it's a tad cooler. But for COLD mornings, something more would be appreciated. I've looked at a couple of propane heaters ( catalytic ones) but most are just plain too large- Tehani is a little boat after all ;D Plus, that means carrying propane.

I've seen good comments on the Coleman Black Cat, but again, that means propane aboard, which we don't carry currently. We use kerosene to cook with.  Alcohol is horribly expensive to burn for heat, plus that's one more fuel to carry and store, so where do we go? Flower pot?

[Tim]

Figured it would be great to take the chill out on a cool morning......with the hatch open slightly. ;D  Guess I should have been more specific as to the intent of my sharing of this neat little find.

But wouldn't a shot of single malt do that also.  ;) ;D And a lot safer  ::) ::) ::)

[TJim]

I find that with my SeaSwing just putting a pot of coffee on warms the cabin up to a comfort level from down around high forties to mid fifties.. And the diesel fuel I burn in it is already onboard... Plus diesel puts out more heat than alcohol, kerosene or propane.  I haven't fired the Force 10  off at all since I left the Great Salt Lake a year and a half or so ago.... I like it fine!!!! Boat's waiting for me in SDiego and I will be going south prior to the 15th .... TJim

[CapnK]

Frank - I had one of those heaters. If you haven't bought it yet, then wait. You can make one a *lot* cheaper, for only a few bucks, following the general design of this commercial model, to figure out if it is something you want to buy...

The heater element is just an aluminum container stuffed with fiberglass, the 'glass being held in place by a metal screen of perhaps 1/8" square mesh over a hole in its middle. The element is perhaps 8-10" diameter, with a 3-4" hole in the middle through which you fill it with fuel, and where the flame is once lit. The purpose of the 'glass is to keep the liquid fuel from being able to slosh. The larger aluminum pieces then fit around the element, perhaps serving a radiant/diffusing purpose, but also keeping you from hitting the flame.

You could burn an open bowl of fuel and get the same amount of heating, but it would be better to use a material to stop any possible sloshing. An even better way would be to copy one of the "KISS stoves" in a larger format and see how it works for you. They are designed so that they actually create a little pressure when burning, making the fuel burn hotter. One caveat: I did one time (out of several hundred uses) have a KISS stove blow up on me. It scattered burning alcohol all over when that happened. Luckily, I was dinghying up a river at the time (;D), so I just threw the stove overboard, and patted out the places on myself and gear where the alcohol was burning.  Might be smart to keep the extinguisher handy when using one of those aboard.

[Auspicious]

I have a Webasto Air-Top for serious winter liveaboard heat. It's great.

I also have a Weems & Plath paraffin lamp in the main salon that does a surprisingly good job of keeping the chill off in the evening. I also have a couple of small table-top lamps in my cabin that warm it up back there pretty nicely. Once the temps get down below freezing the Webasto becomes pretty important. <grin>

[skylark]

I was on the boat yesterday, 32F outside, blizzard.  The Fab-All diesel heater brought the inside temperatures up to 55F at belly height.  This is with no insulation.  Head and shoulders are warm, feet are cold.  I hung in the hammock and napped for a few hours.  For cold weather, good insulating footwear is important.  I think a Fab-All or Dickinson type diesel heater is probably adequate to about 40F for liveaboard comfort on a small boat.  Below that you either have to insulate heavily or you need a better heater.

One thing you can do rather than install a heater is to heat up water in a pressure cooker, then put it down on the floor by your feet.  Maybe wrap it in a towel so you don't burn yourself.  Water holds heat a long time.  A blanket wrapped around you and the hot water helps a lot too.  Hot water bottle type heat is a lot easier than installing a real heater.

My boat is getting hauled today :( .  The rest of the marina is getting iced up, ice is getting too close now.

[polecat]

7 weeks without drying out in Texas - splash slips to end of November.  Had planned to sail way south by now - Going to need a Heater of some type. Don't wish to cut holes in the deckhouse - but that would be the last choice --- what would be the practical options? Any units that allow the "burn" on deck and get dry heat below?
jim

[Delezynski]

Polecat,

Not sure what size boat you have. We have a Nor'Sea 27 that has a wood inside (good insulation). We have a fireplace that we can use as a heater, but it did require a hole in the deck house.

HOWEVERE, we found that with us inside, the added heat of a good oil lam was sufficient to keep us cozy! So, one we burn the coal out of our fireplace, I put the oil lamp in and use it to keep the boat just right, even with snow on the dock.

Just an idea...

Greg

[s/v Faith]

Greg,

 That heater just looks like it would make a good book and chilly day something to savor.

I hate the cold, but have never gotten around to installing the Shipmate Kerosene heater onboard Faith.  :P

 Hope to never really feel the need to get around to it.  ;D

Jim,

 I went ahead and merged your thread into an earlier discussion, hope you find an answer that will work for you.

 Another thread you might want to take a look at is;    
Kerosene stove and cabin heater

On edit; a couple more things...

Any units that allow the "burn" on deck and get dry heat below?

  Man, that would be a nice thing.  If you figure out a way to do it that would be the heater to have.

Maybe a propane burner with a heat exchanger... that pipes hot water into a radiator (could use an automotive heater core....)  Would be a nice system, but probably not worth the effort for the short term use you are looking at.

  I can say that the Coleman catalytic propane heater is no longer in use aboard Faith.  I stopped using it when I get my CO sensor.  There was no way I could run it below decks without the alarm going off.  Even with the hatches wide open the numbers did not work for me.