V-Berths

[Dougcan]

Reading about cruisers and also my own personal experiences plus conversations with other sailors, both "weekender" and "Long distance" types indicate that most sailors prefer to sleep in narrow berths while underway.  Heck, they still prefer to sleep in the main saloon while at anchor.

The interesting thing is that many couples while at anchor still prefer to sleep in the main saloon (converting  the settee/dinning to a double berth) or sleep in the aft cabin if there is one available.  I myself prefer to sleep in the quarterberth.

So why have a V-berth at all?  so far it seems to be a storage space.  sleeping in one is uncomfortable for me for two reasons.  One is that the darn thing is often not long enough and I have to curl my leg in order to keep my head from hanging out into space, the second reason is that there is not enough room for the legs to be comfortable in.  it's worst when there is two people, when trying to put the legs into some semblance of comfort without playing "spaghetti legs" due to the very narrow area at the bow of the boat.

Actually there is three reasons, the third one being that of poor ventalation, but the third reason can be fixed as I did by adding a "dorade vent" to the bow of my boat.  Although it can be a bit chilly when the weather is cool (as it is most of the time in the Puget Sound area), but there's ways around it such as adding fans, etc..

Do any of you really use the vberth at all?  I know Kurt doesn't.  What can the space be used for?  Would there be a better design for the space?  Where do couples sleep? Most of our boats don't have an aft berth, so that's not an option often.

[CharlieJ]

Laura and I use our Vee berth all the time at anchor. We did the same on board Necessity. We find it quite comfortable FOR US. In fact, when we rebuilt the forward cabin, we added storage on each side which actually narrowed the Vee berth. It DOES however have a squared off foot, not a sharp point, which makes quite a difference. I did the same on Necessity when we rebuilt that one.

However, others might find it cramped. Bear in mind that I'm 5'8 and Laura is a quite tiny 5'2. We used to live in a travel trailer and slept for years ( both of us) in a single twin bed. We had plenty of room.

[Pixie Dust]

Hi Guys.  Quick break from house packing.  TOO much stuff.  Bet I think twice before buying household items again.  :) KISS should be a principal we use as landlubbers too.   :D  My mom still cannot believe I am leaving my shingled roof dwelling for a boat.  My ears continue to burn as I hear her saying, "Has she lost her mind?"  :D :D
The answer to that is, "Yup!"

I too sleep in my V-Berth.  I found I did not enjoy making up the settee every night.  I leave my V-berth made up in bed format with a comforter so it does not look messy during the day and I can just crawl in at night.  I have a V-berth hatch and 2 portlights so I feel like I get good ventilation, esp when I have my Caframo fans on.  I am only 5'2" so I have plenty of room.  Being vertically challenged has its advantages on wee vessels.  I also put a piece of memory foam over the cushions to add extra padding.  I think of it as my little cave.  :)
Underneath is my water tank and 2 storage locations.  I put things in the storage area that I do not need to access everyday.

[s/v Faith]

Nothing in the V-berth aboard Faith but 'stuff'.

  I removed the foam mattresses from it this summer, and installed some 1/2" hard form with ventilation groves under it.

  Much more happy with this arrangement, stuff fits better and does not slide around.

  The quarter berths serve well, and I have cleats added along the sides so that boards can be inserted to bridge the area between them.  We add cushions to the area and it turns the saloon into a queen size sleeping area.  If I remember correctly, Eric also did this on the Ariel he traveled to Hawaii on so that he could sleep crosswise and always have his head on the windward (high) side.

  I think the use of the V-berth has as much to do with the layout as anything.  A couple of friends who live aboard a 26' Grampian are quite comfortable in theirs, but many of my friends boats are more likely to have the V filled with 'stuff' and sailbags then people.

[Fortis]

I'm 6foot 2 and I fit comfortably into the V-berth on my E26. It may help that my wife is around 5foot nothing...but I find my feet have room and my head does not hang over into space. Maybe the v-berth in my boat is bigger then standard.
We have the forward hatch directly above our faces in the v berth, so ventilation is optimal.

I found the v berth aboard the e30 that I have crewed on to be far less comfortable. Other boats I have spent the night in the v berth of include a farr38, H28, and Jaenue (sp?) 46. The french monster wins for comfort, but who the heck wants to carry around all that extra boat for three more inches of bed space?

I am not claustraphobic, and used to do serious caving, but the weather has to be especially bad to drive me into the quarterberth. I am more likely to catch some sleep by pulling the cushions off the settee and weding them onto the cabin sole between the settee and the nav table. That way I only need to stand up to be half way out of the companionway if there should be a call for my assistance.


Alex.

[Godot]

If I have one big complaint about my Seafarer 24, it is that I don't sleep comfortably in it.  The v-berth would be fine if I was 4 or 5 inches shorter (I'm 5'10").  Theoretically, it is supposed to be 6'4" long; but I still hang off a bit with my feet flat at the bow (which is too narrow for two).  Maybe I'm taller when horizontal?  It would make a good place to store two or three small children.  Of course, I have none of them, so it is basically storage.

The dinette converts into a narrow double.  On the outboard side of the "double" though, it is several inches shorter than on the inboard side.  I can sleep comfortably solo on this bunk; but it is cramped with my wife; especially since she get claustrophobic when on the outboard side of the bunk (which is too short for me to be comfortable).  I don't currently have cussions for the quarter berth; but I have high hopes that this will be a suitable place to sleep.

The Seafarer 24 layout would probably work a lot better in a boat two or three feet longer.  I do have a fair amount of space under the cockpit, so maybe it would be possible to eliminate the quarterberth and install a floor level double back there like on many of the modern plastic boats.  I don't like it though.  I don't feel comfortable on the floor under the cockpit.  And I really want to keep at least one seaberth, just in case I ever do some overnight offshore sailing.

I will probably be replacing the cussions in the boat in the next year.  I highly doubt I'll bother making new v-berth cussions.

[BobW]

I do use Prelude's V-berth for sleeping and storage, but it sounds like my sleeping arrangement is a bit different (?).  I sleep with my head at the bow.  I'm 6'1" and I fit lengthwise without my feet hanging over the end.  We sleep comfortably as a couple this way, too.  The solar powered vent/fan is right over our heads, the forward hatch is over our feet and we've been comfortable.

We use the aft "corners" of the berth for storage when underway - usually a duffle bag or two in each corner.  Seems to work for us.

[BobW]

Dougan -

I forgot to include this info in my previous post.

Here's a non-traditional use of the foreward cabin from a description of the Cape Dory 25D:

The main salon with 5'11" headroom, berths for four and L-shaped galley, is exceptionally spacious because the traditional forward V-berths have been eliminated. In their place is a larger head with vanity, wet and dry hanging lockers, and a shower.

http://www.capedory.org/specs/cd25d.htm

[Dougcan]

Bob, that is an interesting place for a head, but In my reading and personal experiences, I'm thinking that the best place for an enclosed head is right by the companionway.

Why I think that is because of "salt intrusion"!  In other words, when you are keeping watch and you have to go, you don't want to track your wet foulies all over the cabin, so my keeping the head close to the companionway, you reduce that.  Most enclosed heads at the companionway will have enough room for a large enough hanging locker, thus limiting the salt intrusion to the rest of the cabin.

[Captain Smollett]

Why I think that is because of "salt intrusion"!  {snip} you don't want to track your wet foulies all over the cabin

Sounds more like a problem with "water intrusion."  The salt is a secondary issue.   ;D

That's a good thought, but I have noticed a LOT of the Alberg designed boats have the head at or near the v-berth.  I wonder if Carl was not thinking about this when he laid the boats out.

Another pro for locating the head there is reduced movement.  Ummm, reduced movement of the boat (you are closer to center of pitch).

Any CONS with a head near companionway?  The only biggie I can think of is that is a 'popular' area - galley, nav table, etc, so there is a lot of competition for stuff near the companionway.

[CapnK]

I don't have anything against v-berth sleeping, in fact I will probably have mine set up to use that way if/when needed, by being able to put cushions on top of the lockers I am building up there. I doubt I'll ever sleep there when the boat is underway, though - too much action. (boat action, that is... ;D ).

Now that I have opened up the interior of the boat, I think that air circulation there will make a big difference, and that was my main beef with it...

Right now, the current v has a definite slope down and aft, which means to be comfortable you need to sleep head forward.

[Anton]

 I started out sleeping in the saloon because I didn't like climbing into the V-berth; access is thru a tiny little door and you have to climb up into it.

  As far as space goes, though, the Vberth on the Hunter is great.  I'm 6' and it's long enough so my head and toes aren't touching, and wide enough for three of me, and I'm the defensive tackle type.  All that extra space though, makes for a lot of rolling around in heavy weather, but if I lie against a bulkhead (they're insulated/padded) I sleep real well.  I've got enough room that I'm looking to somehow put a triangular nighttable type thing in one corner, with a reading light and place for a bookpile and cupholder, something along those lines.

  The bronze screws fixing the partition between the berth area and the head are completely stripped, otherwise I would have removed it long ago.  I'm getting a dremel saw and taking radical measures to the thing, also doing away with the other partition and door between the head and saloon area and replacing the wimpy support post with something that provides some support.  Give it a more open look front to back.

  Ive seen where people put boards across their saloon quarters b's to make an emperor king bed, but that's my workspace...coffee table with securing footers, flat screen and PC on one side, "sofa" with futon cushion replacing the mangy 30yr old moldies that went into the dumpster day one, can still take catnaps in the one quarterberth or make it into an extra bed.

  I have a helmsman's berth that's currently being used for storage, but I once saw a helmsman's berth that was done up really neat, carpeted, insulated and painted with it's own ventilation, lighting and portlight looking out to the rear!  I was really impressed...but it'll have to wait until my money tree sheds some more leaves for that project...

[s/v Faith]

Anton,

  First, Welcome aboard!  When you get a chance you might drop a not in the interdiction's* thread to let us know a little bit about you.

  Which Hunter do you have?  The layout kinda sounds like the Cherbini Hunter 30.  I did a delivery on one, and found the quarter berth much to my liking.  I can not picture the 'tiny door' you have to climb though.   ???  A couple of Hunters I have been on have kinda narrow access (made up for with a big saloon, and head), I had thought that might make one who was claustrophobic uncomfortable.

_{* this word was supposed to be 'introductions', but my awful spelling corrected to interdictions... sounded appropriate somehow so I left it.  ;D}

[Anton]

It's one of the Cherubs, 1977 27'...to get into the V-berth you have a sliding teak cabinet-size door, about 48"/22", have to hop up onto a knee plant and climb in.  Climbing out is worse.  I'm eliminating all the interior walls, if I need a partition to keep in heat or something I can put curtains up.  A lot of the cabinetwork is going to go, too.  The hull design is great IMO, I've got neighbors with 30'+ boats who don't have nearly the living space, it's slow but it's about the easiest boat to sail, tracks a straight line even if it doesn't point all that well.   But I'll be the first to say the craftsmanship on the interior is really atrocious, if I don't watch it I may go nuts and rip EVERYTHING out. 

You pay just as much for a cheap boat, it just comes out of your pocket on the installment plan...LOL...but I can have fun screwing around with it a little and trying some experiments. 

[s/v Faith]

I'm eliminating all the interior walls, if I need a partition to keep in heat or something I can put curtains up. ....

  I thought the 27' had a decks stepped mast?  If so I would not recommend you remove the main bulknead... sorry if I am off in left field, I will go and see if I can find anything.

..... on edit;  I see that there is a compression strut under the mast (not sure it was a '77 I was looking at).  I wonder what kind of structual support the bulkhead is providing?  Might be worth condidering some kind of arch to replace the bulkhead...

  Might ask Capn' K about what he is doing on his boat.

[Anton]

Yeah, I'm already there with all that, the mast support and the section over it stays.  Also I suspect some of that bulkhead is giving some rigidity in general to the boat, so I wouldn't be taking it all out, but it would cease to be a wall.  The compression post is basically a vertical board, not much to rely on in a boat known for mast step compression issues...I'd like to replace it with something more substantial.

One of my crazy ideas for an "experiment" is to go from being deck stepped to "keel stepped" (Well, there's an I beam looking thing under the cabin sole, it would supported by that)...but using the same mast.  My mast will be shorter, but then switching to a "junk rig" battened sail, no boom, the upper battens will extend my sail area like a gaff rig, so I wouldn't lose anything.  Junk rigs have always fascinated me, but playing with that idea is way, way down the road...I've got other crazy ideas that need my money much more right now...LOL

[s/v Faith]

Junk rigged Hunter.......

ala 'Jester'


  Now that would be COOL.   ;D

[Fortis]

For a proper junk rig, I do not think you could do it with the same mast. The main issue being that a junk rig is an unstayed mast, so it needs a certain type of rigidity and (if made in aluminium, a certain temper. T6, I think).
A normal boat mast in aluminium is tempered to about T4 or T5 depending on length, number of spreaders and whether it is a  masthead or fractional rig. Basically it has different strengths and responds differently to stresses.

Lastly, un unstayed rig needs a fairly massive mastfoot support system that ties into the hull. It is, for obvious reasons once you think about it, a much more hull-involved setup then merely a keel-stepped mast. Some deck reinforcement may also be needed as the deck that the mast exits through becomes the fulcrum and the mast is going to have great inclination to chop and saw its way out through that spot.

Personally, I LIKE deck stepped masts. If you do not want the comression post in the middle of your passage between main salon and V berth then there are alternatives. none work quiet as well, but there are alternatives that work better then what you are planning now.

Also, consider that if you were to go over to a junk rig and lose your headsail...you would have something the original design did not spec for and are quite likely to end up with lots and lots of unwanted weather helm. The downside of an unbalanced rig. You would then be faced with a fairly extensive quest for how to eliminate the porblem and re-balance the boats performance. This could involve moving the mast forwards or aft, changing the rake or a number of other fairly drastic steps. Most people overcome the problem by sticking on an even bigger barn door for a rudder and just fighting the unbalance with a bigger "hammer". This of course reduces performance even further and also adds to the stresses on hull and other structural systems.

Just advising a conservative aproach to modifications, until you have owned the boat long enough to know what it really needs (and find out what ou really cannot live with or adapt to)...And preferably after you have shopped around and seen that there is no other boat remotely in your budget that has the features you want already incorporated in its design specs.
Then, and only then...and hopefully on the proviso that you still have another boat to go sailing on while the project is "in progress" would it be a great idea to start major modifications in boat construction and performance.

I did not follow this advice for myself, by the way, and I paid for it. Still am. Wish I had gotten the advice I just gave...and that I had been wise enough to heed it.

Sometime this year, I hope, I will finally get my boat back in the water. I hope.


Alex.

[Anton]

A PROPER junk rig?  Believe me, NOTHING I do is proper...

All I can say is, thank your lucky stars it isn't your boat, because if it was, you'd REALLY be ticked off when you see how bad I'm going to screw it up.

And after I'm done, I'm going to glass THIS onto the prow... 

I've figured out how to make it breathe smoke, but where to put the loudspeakers to make the intermittent farting sounds...that I'm still working on.

[Fortis]

Obviously the ears. That way the sound gets funneled out like a loud hailer.


;D