OT: Financial rant

[CapnK]

Different strokes, I guess.

Yes, there are 2 strokes, 4 strokes, and (drumroll, please) 0 strokes... ;D




Thanks, I'll be here all week. Try the meatloaf!

:D :D :D

[Frank]

Tim...if you really have "Ebbitis" you'll have to learn to 'wax poetic' in your writing as well ;D :D   

[Tim]

Tim...if you really have "Ebbitis" you'll have to learn to 'wax poetic' in your writing as well ;D :D   

LMAO So true!  ;D

[s/v Faith]

  I was thinking of this issue of 'slavery' this morning.  So many of my friends, here on this board and elsewhere are suffering right now.  I hope that as the standards of our modern western life are challenged that many will find ways to 'escape' from the cycle that has held us for so long.

  I read a blog yesterday written by a man who calls himself a 'refugee' of the economic crisis.  He and his wife live on their CSY33 with their smallish child.  Reading his blog (I will look for a link if anyone is interested) It seems to be that they are not refugees, but they have escaped.

  I am thankful for the life I have, and for having the things I need.  Even in our current shore life our needs are met.  I am thankful for this time, especially for my First Mate's healing.  I do hope that in the midst of so much difficulty (financial and otherwise) that we may all emerge with a new, more healthy view of what is important.  I hope that, as difficult as this is, that good may come from it.

 

[s/v Faith]

A friend once told me that for me, "everything is a metaphor"

  She was probably right.  I see some obvious things that my mind grabs onto, probably too simple for
more intellectually gifted among us to notice.

  In helping some friends move over the last week, I kept noticing the expression on their faces as they lifted
heavy boxes.  Some of these boxes were being removed from a storage shed, where they had been placed
at some time in the past.  They were sealed, and apparently had not been accessed for some time.

  Their expressions (and my own sore muscles) reminded me of the burden of these possessions.  The things
we "need" weigh us down, and draw more energy then we notice.

  The weight of extra gear has a noticeable effect on the waterline of the boat.  I have continued to remove things
from 'Faith' since we got back.   I wonder about how much these things that were largly in the way, and weighed us down detracted from the overall experience.

  May all of our burdens be light.....

[LooseMoose]

It's funny ... Since we have lived aboard smallish boats since 1983 all of the current interest in living aboard makes us something less than a freak show these days.

We never set out to do the boat thing to be frugal just that it was what we wanted to do... The fact that if you do it right the whole boat thing turns out to be a very modest hence frugal lifestyle but that is just a bonus not the reason for doing it.

One of the great parts of living on boats is that it is a pretty much level playing field...A few weeks ago we were anchored in the same bay as Maltese Falcon and as far as I know Tom Perkins woke up to the same view and same weather as we did...

Life is good!

Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

[newt]

Well the view may be the same...
but I bet the frig looks different! :)
(Hey man, can I borrow some ice cubes?)

[Frank]

Just came across this....seems to fit Craigs rant...

"We don't need to increase our goods nearly as much as we need to scale
down our wants. Not wanting something is as good as possessing it." - Donald
Horban

[nowell]

You know, re-reading all this to see how our rants moved with the changes in market, it got me to thinking. Last month there was an segment on 60 minutes about people that just walked away from their mortgages. Many had reasons, but, the part I found intresting was the people that weren't in any sort of distress, that made the choice to do it for personal financial reasons.

I am one of those people. Im sure younger than most on this forum, and definately a different generation. While I can respect the "moral obligations" to return payment on what I borrowed, the reality is, its one sided. Do you think the banks and financial institutions are morally bound when dealing with you? So, why should I sacrifice my potential wealth, happiness, and dream on the basis that it might take another 5-15 years for my real estate investment to be profitable.

This lead to a few other lines of thought. One, from the extreme edge of society, people believe that the governments want you in debt. Makes you easy to track, and keeps them in money.

Then on the same edge, but slightly more to center is the "off grid" societies. Alot of them made the move to their desired living stratagies by walking away from everything, taking what they had and starting over. Then you have the more center looking people like myself that are wondering what the heck we are doing? We didn't ask to be put in this situation, we are doing our best to keep our moral compas pointed north, and in the process are sacrificing our dreams, futures, and whatever else. Finally you have the other side that believes that your posessions make your status.

The beauty of us Sailfar'ers is that we can apprecaite most of these views with a little less bias, because I think our population runs the gambit of levels of percieved "success". With that in mind, it would be intresting to find out your thoughts on this? Why haven't more of us walked away to our dreams? Sure, a few have made the move to living aboard, and some are cutting dock lines as I type this. Some of us have family issues preventing it, some have medical issues, the list can go on and on. Lets boil it down though. Even with all this issues, what do you think is the main reason for continuing to contribute to the financial situation we are all (in some way) helping with? The information on this board is a virtual treasure trove of ideas, thoughts, plans, everything. The content alone, could bring a 3rd world country out of poverty levels (well, maybe if they elected Capn K as king and overloard!).

So, in summary, since this is long, im intrested to know 1) "If your not living your dream now, what is keeping you from it", and 2) "If you are living your dream, what are you doing to avoid getting pulled away from it"?

*edit* given CJs comments below, maybe I should rephrase the question.

"Are your morals keeping you from your dream?"

[CharlieJ]

I suppose we are "living the dream". But we may be a bit different.

Boat- paid for
House-paid for
Vehicles-both paid for
Debts-none

But it took some years of hard work to get here.

[nowell]

I don't think thats different CJ. Given the varied range on this forum, I expect most people are like you actually. However, for the sake of argument, lets just say you didn't have your vehicle paid for. If it was keeping you from your dream, would you be willing to "walk away from the debt obligation" to get to your dream? Or, if your house wasn't paid for, and would you sell it at a loss, or even forclose, or "walk away", again, to make your dream? Especially when we live in a situation where its now becoming common practice to do so?

[Captain Smollett]

We did not ask for it? Really?

Sorry,  but if you signed on the loan paper or let the clerk swipe your card through the reader,  you DID sign up for whatever debt you have.

Living above one's means is a personal choice.  Another part of the Sailfar spirit is responsibility.  I believe one should keep his word, whether that is to show up for work on time,  remain faithful in your personal relationships with friends or family,  or paying back money you CHOSE to borrow.

I find it despicable that someone with the means to pay back a loan walks away from it for any selfish reason. Lots of people pay off debt by living within means (which often means doing without for a while) and hard work.

[skylark]

I am at a net positive financially, my assets could pay off my debt and there is enough left over to pay for many years of frugal cruising. 

Its the ties that bind that hold me to the dock.  People who need me and who I care for. 

[nowell]

We did not ask for it? Really?

Sorry,  but if you signed on the loan paper or let the clerk swipe your card through the reader,  you DID sign up for whatever debt you have.

Living above one's means is a personal choice.  Another part of the Sailfar spirit is responsibility.  I believe one should keep his word, whether that is to show up for work on time,  remain faithful in your personal relationships with friends or family,  or paying back money you CHOSE to borrow.

I find it despicable that someone with the means to pay back a loan walks away from it for any selfish reason. Lots of people pay off debt by living within means (which often means doing without for a while) and hard work.

While I agree, considering the world we live in now, and the fact that people *are* walking away from their debts, the 60 minutes bit, and constant new articals, etc, are turning this into a common practice. Working in the financial sector, I see first hand what this does. It slows *everyone's* recovery.

The sad part is, the companies care even less. With so much apathy towards the overall situation, I'm just wondering who else is fighting the losing fight. It feels almost like waiting to see who is going to be left holding the bag.

[Captain Smollett]

I don't care how many people are doing something dishonest. That does not not make it right. At the end of the day, I can only control my own behavior.

[okawbow]

Part of what's wrong with this country, is the idea that it's ok to blame someone else for your problems. It's also not ok to make others have to pay off your debts.  :'(

As a small business owner that does most transactions by taking credit cards; I see the result of some peoples' irresponsibility with credit card debt. We must pay 3% of every transaction as a charge for the bank that handles the credit card. A large part of that amount is because some people max out their cards and then just "walk away". So, it's not really the banks that have to pay for bad loans, etc.; it's the average consumer, small business, and financially responsible people who must make up the loss in higher fees, interest, and prices.

There are commercials airing right now that want people with lots of debt to "take advantage of the Government bailout." Well, just who do you think pays for the government bailout? I'm sick of living in a 125 year old house, (that I paid for), driving a 10 year old truck, ( I paid cash for) sailing a 43 year old boat, doing without , to remain debt free, and paying exorbinate taxes and fees, so others can live the good life, and not have to pay for it!


Don't sign that paper unless you can and will honor that debt!

[nowell]

Excellent post okawbow! You said the frustration I feel, and maybe for me its expounded by seeing, and taking part in the shady !@#$ that the firm I work for is doing (JPMorgan). Ultimately, we, the responsible ones lose. All we are looking for is our piece of pie, or to make our dreams a reality, but, as long as this vicious circle continues, we won't win.

Maybe I need to stop drinking so much Dr Pepper, and reading all these micro blogs on living under the radar, it makes for a bad combonation, LOL!

[CharlieJ]

I don't care how many people are doing something dishonest. That does not not make it right. At the end of the day, I can only control my own behavior.

My feelings exactly John

[Tim]

Yep, reminds me of a B. Dylan quote (I think)  "If you want to be an outlaw, you have to be honest" 

I just listened to a "Furled Sails" podcast last night, an interview with Roger Taylor "Voyages of a Simple Sailor" and the one thing he is adamant about is taking personal responsibility for one self on the seas. I think that goes for all of life.

[Godot]

Debts. Responsibilities.  Moral obligations.  Yada, yada, yada.  I think the question being raised is at what point do you feel so helpless or trapped that you just accept being the bad guy.

I have been hearing stories of people who are defaulting on their homes for purely strategic reasons.  I strongly suspect they are in the minority. I think most people in this situation are dealing with divorce, seriously dropping home prices (making homes impossible to sell), decreasing pay (assuming jobs are kept at all), vanishing savings, and numerous other disasters that accompany a seriously damaged economy.  When a person finds themselves in a situation with no apparent way out, the fight or flight instinct takes over.  I don't think people are walking away from their homes.  They are running for their lives.

I was just like all of you who look at this in black and white until this exact situation came knocking on my doorstep.  While I continue to meet my obligations (and I live a modest life in a modest home with a modest car and a modest boat that is now for sale), it is a near thing, and I am somewhat more understanding of others who make the other decision, even if it is financially and morally irresponsible.